Need input on creating a 180 gal system

[alexv]

Currently I have two main planted tanks - 55 and 33 gallons. I've been thinking for a while of getting a considerably bigger tank since both of mine are quite narrow and they don't allow for much of planting...

I've been thinking of getting a 180 gallon, most likely in the standard 72"x24"x24". The thing is I'm considering using a sump and putting most of the equipment in the basement below the main tank. The project is still in a very early planning stage and I'm looking for any input, comments, suggestions about the general design, etc.

My first question is about plumbing, and sump design. I think the tank will have two overflows in the corners. I would use two durso standpipes for overflows to lead water down in the sump. There I would place the filter material, biofilter media, heater, etc. I want to also make it a bit disaster-proof and embed some overflow-protection in both the tank and the sump. I will install the overflow pipes above the normal water level leading directly into the house drain. The drain in the sump will also help me create automatic water change system. A constant (or timed) drip system will add fresh water to the system and excess will drain out automatically.

Here is the general description of the design:

Water from the overflows will go to the sump through the standpipes (2). There it will pass through a series of baffles through the mechanical filter (7), then biofilter ( 8 ). Eventually picked up by the pump returning to the tank through the return pipes (1). Additionally a second (smaller) pump will create a small water loop (4) through a CO2 reactor and return the water back to the sump (a few partitions down the stream). The reason for this is that the main pump will have a much larger flow rate that can be handled by the CO2 reactor I have (which is Aquamedic Reactor 1000). It has just 1/2" hose connector which is not enough for the main loop. I think putting it in the middle of the sump will allow some water to pass through the reactor, while the rest going straight bypassing it. The flow rate will be maintained while the CO2 reactor will still be utilized by 100%.

The sump will have two outlets leading to the drain. One on top to control the water level and drain off excess water supplied by the drip system (5), thus performing continuous water change. The second will be in the bottom of the sump somewhere close to the mechanical filter. This should help in cleaning the system. When removing and washing the filter media, there will be a lot of gunk left in the sump which can be drained by that outlet. Obviously the valve controlling that pipe will be closed in normal operation.

So, what do you think about this set-up? Will it work? Any major issues? Any comments/suggestions?

What kind of a flow rate do you think should be maintained for the tank of this size? The thing is the main pump head will be approx 9'-10'. I was thinking of buying the Sequence ReeFlo Dart pump but at 10' head it can pump out only 1520 GPH. Is this enough?

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[kirk88]

i definiatly like the idea of the pipe leading from the main tank thats above the water line to completely flood proof ur tank. looks good to me so far 

[darkdep]

Love the diagram

I think your design looks great.  I'm days away from a 210gal tank showing up where I will also be doing a sump design.  Mine is all in the basement tho.

The things I'm planning to do differently is I'll have a wet-dry tower above the sump where the biomedia will sit, and far fewer baffles.  Well, and no CO2 stuff either, but plants aren't my focus.

[Quatro]

Great diagram.

The yellow overflow in the sump takes care of the extra water from the drip system, right?  I would suggest moving it to before the drip to prevent fresh water from going down the drain.  Not a big issue but just a suggestion.

One thing that confuses me is the ball valve on your #2 green return line.  I can't see any reason you would want to limit  flow back to the sump. 

I tend to  think that 1520gph is more then enough (works out to be almost 1/2 gal per second).

Good luck with it.  Seems like a neat project.

[darkdep]

Probably the #2 valve is just there for cleaning / disassembly purposes?

[alexv]

The yellow overflow in the sump takes care of the extra water from the drip system, right?  I would suggest moving it to before the drip to prevent fresh water from going down the drain.  Not a big issue but just a suggestion.

Glad you noticed that Actually this is the plan and I want to put the sump overflow on the back right after the filter and the drip system a few baffles after it. It was just difficult to show on the diagram without confusing people. But you are right, this is how I plan to do it.

One thing that confuses me is the ball valve on your #2 green return line.  I can't see any reason you would want to limit  flow back to the sump. 

Frankly I added the valves on pipes #1 and #2 just in case with no real reason. Now it appears that I can use #1 to control the return rate

I tend to  think that 1520gph is more then enough (works out to be almost 1/2 gal per second).

I remember reading somewhere about recommended turn-over time, something like X volumes of the tank an hour. Anyone knows that?

[alexv]

Now that everyone seems to approve the plan, I'd like to get some specifics. Like what kind of pipes I should be using (diameter, material, etc)? Bulkheads? I have no experience in any of this. I just want this system to work and be reliable.

Given the general plan, what would you use for materials and where would you get them?

Another thing. I want to make the system serviceable. This means that pumps and other equipment must be easily removable. What connector options do I have for this?

[redbelly]

Very Nice diagram!
You really do not need the yellow #3 line to go to your main tank though. It doesnt need to go to the bottom of your sump either. If you just have a single overflow at the top of your sump then when you top up your water it will still drain.

Also you last resevoir where the return pump in must be bigger as this is where all of your exaporation will take place from.

Dont join your overflow lines into one either. Run them seperate and they can handle more flow. With them joined you might as well just have one overflow which i do not advise.

You were asking about plumbing size. I would make all of your overflow lines 1.5" to handle as much flow as possible. Your return lines will depend on your pump. I used 1.5" return lines on my Barracuda that pumps to the main floor then I have a Y to split the flow into 2 lines right behind the tank.

As for the return pump I have never used a dart to push water up a level in a house so to be honest i dont know if it will work. The barracuda is way more than enough pump and actually must be throttled back but it certainly works.

[alexv]

The reason for the yellow #3 pipe is to prevent overflow of main tank in case the drain pipe gets clogged or something. Since the inlet of the pipe #3 will always be above water level it will be clean. This is just an insurance against the flood.

The drain at the bottom of the sump is for cleaning only. With all the baffles, it would be very difficult to remove all the debris accumulating behind the filter media. I will just have to open the valve and drain all the dirt out of the sump.

As for connecting overflow pipes, would it make sense to use a bigger pipe at the joint and down? I think two overflows for 6 ft tank would be better for water circulation, however I would need to route the pipes to the basement. And the fewer holes I have to drill through the floor the better

Barracuda is a bit too powerful, I think. Mostly for power consumption. I'm not sure if Dart would do the job, but 150W vs 250W is considerable for a constantly powered equipment.

[charlie]

I would be concerned about co2 outgassing from your sump/main tank , maybe you have addressed it in your plans.

[alexv]

I would be concerned about co2 outgassing from your sump/main tank , maybe you have addressed it in your plans.

Well, I don't really know how to address it. There are two things that I thought I'd do for this:

1. Cover both the tank and the sump
2. Put the returns below the water level in the tank to reduce surface agitation.

However item #2 poses a problem - if the returns are below surface level, how to stop the syphon effect in case of power outage? I'd hate the whole tank going to drain when the pump is not working? Any suggestions on the return plumbing? What nozzles/spraybars you would use, how would you route the pipes, etc?

[alexv]

Ok, I'm moving closer at starting to build the system I described in the first post of this thread. Do you guys (and gals) have any suggestions as to what would be the best place to get a drilled tank in about 180 gallon size? I don't mind building a custom tank, depending on the price, of course. Any builders out there in Ottawa area? Or should I go with, say, Big Al's and order a factory-made predrilled tank?

Any suggestions are welcome...

[Quatro]

talk to sniggir on this site.  good guy to drill your tanks.

[sdivell]

I believe Redbelly (patrick) knows someone who builds custom tanks in Ottawa.

[alexv]

What do you think about this custom aquarium quote:

Tank 72x24x24
The front 12mm starphire glass
The back and sides 12mm regular glass
The bottom 19mm regular glass
2 internal greylite overflows
4 holes
euro bracing
All glass ground and polished
1 year warranty on tank
Cost: $1618 + taxes

Is this price reasonable? Or can I do much better elsewhere?

[alexv]

Well, some good news. I finally have the tank. It still needs some work (like installing overflow boxes and things) but I ended up getting a 215 gallon (72Lx24Wx30H) with starphire front pane... Now I'm back into the parts and components..

Where is the best place to get plumbing things? I was thinking of using a flexible PVC pipe for the main drain/return lines (2" drain and 1.5" return) since I want to minimize the 90 degree elbows and I need to route the water into the basement through the floor, so the head would be considerable. In addition I'm trying to avoid drilling through the actual hardwood flooring on the main floor and thinking of drilling the floor in the actual wall and working with flexible tubing should be easier there... Not sure if I can avoid destroying the hardwood floors or not this way

Anyway, what would be the place to go to for such kind of pipe which is also aquarium safe? Home Depot? Rona? Some specialty store? Also would need ball valves, water pressure regulator (for automatic water change system and things)...

Will also need to create a sump with the approximate design pictured in my first post of this thread...

In other words, I have pretty much nothing and I need to get all of the equipment. Any pointers/suggestions? I don't mind making things myself to save money (I'm building the aquarium stand myself and the cabinet in the basement on which the sump/equimpent will reside, as well as all the plumbing and so on)...

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[Adam.Derome]

Hi Alexv,

Great diagram, and good design!

Just a few things that I noticed:

1. The ball valve #1 for your return -> Consider using two ball valves, and putting them AFTER the tee - this way you can control the flow going to each side of the tank individually. I think that if you leave it with one ball valve before the T, you will be able to control the OVERALL flow, but one side will be pushing way more water than the other side (Path of least resistance)

2. Why soo many baffles? To get rid of bubbles coming from the overflow, you only need maybe 2, 3 baffles max to quiet it down nicely. You may just be making more work for yourself for no additional benefit.

3. Agreed with another comment, do not T your overflow pipes, it defeats the purpose of having two overflows in the first place. If you decide to T to a larger pipe size, make sure you verify that the larger size tubing you choose can actually accomodate two 1.5" overflows.

Otherwise, it looks like a really great plan!

Other Items:

1. Talk to SNIGGER on the OVAS forums, or send him a Personal Message. He came over to my place to drill a pair of holes in my 65G when I set it up, and, coincidentally, he's coming over today to drill a pair of holes in my 30G Super nice guy, and has all the right gear (I think he's even using a nice portable drill press now, as opposed to a hand drill) - I'm pretty sure he's drilled dozens of holes too, so he knows his stuff.

2. SpaFlex tubing is fantastic "flexible PVC". It's white, is ribbed for strength (And pleasure) and is tough as nails. You can pick it up at Home Depot (Call ahead to check for stock... Not a regularly checked item from what I've seen), and you can always pick it up at Marinescape on Carling. Marinescape I know for sure, always carries the 1.5" stuff

3. Bulkheads - Marinescape carries the nice "Hayword" (?) (White) brand as well as another brand. I have a preference for the Hayword ones because they come with two rubber gaskets and a cardboard gasket, whereas the black bulkheads they sell only come with one rubber gasket. I also noticed that the Hayword bulkheads have a hex nut as opposed to a circular edge, and it is easier to tighten with your hands/wrench. (Snigger drills holes for these Hayword bulkheads. Not sure if they have the same hole-diameter need as the other brand, may want to verify though)

4. Plumbing parts -> This is the insane part about this hobby. Honest to god, I ~~HATE~~ shopping for plumbing parts here in Ottawa. If anyone has any suggestions about this, I would love to hear them. Everytime I make a new setup, I have to visit MANY different locations to find all the pieces I need, but here are some good places to start:

     a. Home Depot (Innes Road, Baseline Road, Stranherd Drive)
          -Very limited selection of PVC connectors, I mean VERY limited
          -The only PVC valves they carry are BALL VALVES. THAT IS ALL. (No unions, no gate valves, etc..)
     b. Preston Street Hardware (Preston Street)
          -They have a really great selection of PVC connectors (T's, elbows)
          -They also carry some variety of bulkheads / flexible PVC for their hot-tubs and spa-tubs
     c. Princess Auto (Hawthorne Road)
          -Great selection of PVC connectors
          -Carry more rare PVC items like Unions, and One-Way valves
          -Out of stock often, but they have really, really good prices and a more varied selection
     d. Canus Plastics (Lisgar Street)
          -Incredible selection of PVC parts (Sch 40 AND Sch 80)
          -Can get any kind of connection here, and any kind of valve, but you will PAY PAY PAY
          -You do not want to know the cost of a Schedule 80 Bulkhead. Insanity.
     e. PVC Plus (Colonnade Road)
          -Really great selection of PVC connectors/items
          -Industrial seller. These guys don't carry very much "small-time" stuff, probably supplies a lot of contractors.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. You should be able to find all your plumbing needs by visiting two or three of those stores. I've also heard suggestions of going to local pool stores, though I have not had much luck in that department.

I think the hardest part about the plumbing is figuring out all the different connection types (Male thread, female thread, inner diameter, outer diameter, slip fit w/O-Clamp, PVC Cement slip fit, etc..). You really have to look around and find out what's available before deciding what to buy, otherwise you'll end up with 80% setup and missing two or three critical connections that are just soo hard to find.

In the future, I think I will find an online supplier and order ALL of my parts at once, instead of shopping around so many local stores.

Hope that helps

[Adam.Derome]

Doh.

Just realized your last post was July 2nd and you've probably already put together your sump...



How did it turn out?!

[alexv]

Doh.

Just realized your last post was July 2nd and you've probably already put together your sump...

How did it turn out?!

I really appreciate your input. Really good list of suppliers. Thanks a lot!

And no, I haven't built anything yet. There was a small problem with the tank so it's going back to the builder. I still need to finish the stand (mainly the doors are the only thing remaining except for putting the final coat of stain). No plumbing is done yet.

I try to pace myself as I need to get a lot of equipment and that costs a lot of $$$, so trying to get rid of the temptation to buy everything at once or else my wife will show me the door

As for the sump, that was more of a sketch, however the number of baffles was chosen for a reason. To accomodate the mini-loop for the CO2 injection. Just wanted it to get it from one chamber and dump the output in another chamber separated by baffles. Also want to be sure that in case of clogged filter media, the water just overflows some intermediate baffles and doesn't overflow the sump.

Here is how I pictured it:

The water enters the sump on the right and is stopped by the first baffle. Since I need the water to go through the filter from bottom to top, I have the second baffle. The mechanical filter media and bio media is between baffles 2,3, and 4.

Baffles 5-8 was to make sure the CO2 injection pump (#4) has no chance of circulating the water back from the return to its intake. And the final two baffles are for the heater.

I'm sure I can get away with removing some of them, but that was just my initial idea...

[Toss]

Don't want to discourage you but with 30"H you will need a major lighting if you want to grow highlight foreground plants. Plus a snorkling equipment for landscaping
Maybe you want to double up the reactor and needle valve for this size of tank and use one for now until the tank is fully planted. Buy 15 or 20 lb tank cause you will need a lots of CO2 due to size and outgasing like Errol said.
This is going to be a very interesting planted tank