Issue with Monti-Caps

[Rybren]

I have four Monti-Cap colonies.  In three of the four, the corals are experiencing a loss of tissue.  The forth seems fine - for the moment.

From my research, it seems as though the most likely culprit is the Monti-eating nudibranch; however, search as I might, I just can't seem to see any (or any other organism on them).  I've looked using a magnifying glass both with the lights on, and with a flashlight after the lights have been off for a while.

Any suggestions?  I've attached a few pics.

Thanks.

[Hookup]

What's your Mg at?  It's a common culprit for cap issues. 

[Rybren]

Mg is sitting at 1350.  Alk is 9dkh and Ca is at 440.  All of the other corals seem fine.

[redbelly]

Thats definately not montipora eating nudi damage.
Nudi's do love caps but they start at the base and eat there way towards the outside. Where they have eaten goes completely white.

Your caps are bleaching out so something is definately off.

[beertech]

Have you changed any bulbs lately?

[Hookup]

Mg is sitting at 1350.  Alk is 9dkh and Ca is at 440.  All of the other corals seem fine.

Welcome to my world.   Basically similar params and I have similar monti cap dmg too..  Did you recently change phons ban or/ and carbon?

How stable have you been.  1-10 where 10 is rock stable and 1 is a yo-yo

What about salinity? 

What about pH?


These are some of the things where I've been struggling so maybe there's something in common.

[Rybren]

I changed bulbs out in early Dec.  I'm running an ATI Sunpower 4x 54W and changed one bulb every few days.  I also raised the height of the fixture and over the course of a couple of weeks, gradually lowered it.

I change carbon and GFO every 3-4 weeks.  This started prior to the last change out.

Params have always been rock steady (so 9-10 on the Tim scale)

SG is a steady 35ppt; pH 8.2

The one thing that I did change was that I started running biopellets back in October.  Initially they were running in a media bag under the skimmer output.  I picked up a reactor over the Christmas holidays so for the last month or so, they've been in the reactor.  Now that I think of it, the degradation really accelerated at about the same time. 

I may pull the pellets offline and see if anything changes.

[Hookup]

Well I'm also at a bit of a loss.

If I can turn mine around I'll share any changes


Btw. Is anything else suffering?  Most of my stuff is holding strong. Some LPS issues with bleaching but I think that is cause my nutrient levels have been dropping and they are starving.

[kole18]

If i was you i would take it off the bio-pellets, same issue that i have a few months ago. it bleached my sps, I'm not saying isn't good to used it in reef tank some reefkeepers have successfully of using this pellets others don't & i'm one of those guys who had not able to keep in my tank. the first week it gives me a cyano outbreak, then i'd noticed my sps bottom base its bleaching slowly something had been eating bit by bit & i'd tried to dip nothing in there. i took it off my bp & install my gfo it stop from bleaching. they say on this bp you have to feed your tank atleast 3x or maybe more to kick in this pellets. but for me this isn't worth it , i would rather to go back & install my gfo, carbon. if you were trying to reduced your nitrates i would suggest to use a cheatos & sanbed much safer than bp

[Rybren]

Btw. Is anything else suffering?  Most of my stuff is holding strong. Some LPS issues with bleaching but I think that is cause my nutrient levels have been dropping and they are starving.

The LPS are doing well as are the other SPS.

they say on this bp you have to feed your tank atleast 3x or maybe more to kick in this pellets.

I feed A LOT!  My fish are all big, fat, pigs!

I also run carbon & GFO 24/7 and have chaeto in the fuge (no DSB).  I haven't had any issue with cyano & judging by the bubble algae & macro growth in the tank, I definately don't have an ULNS tank. 

[redbelly]

What type of Bio pellets are you running?

[Rybren]

I'm running 200ml of the Two Little Fishies brand in a Phosban 150.  This is roughly half the recommended amount for my water volume. (They state that 400ml should be used for 100G and I figure that my total volume is about 80-90G)

[kole18]

I've used this 2 Little fish BP for almost 3 months, along w/ zeobak & vinegar to dose in oder to kick in the BP. but didn't last though i had to pull this off because got really major issue of cyano as well sps slowly bleaching from the bottom base it really hurts you those are the nice one sps colony. i know its always something is not right but thank god some corals had been recovery now for the last few months.

[redbelly]

To me it looks like your system has gone too nutrient poor, or at least potentially nutrient poor too quick for the montipora.

The acropora in the back ground do not have the color of a nutrient poor system so I would say it may have been too fast.

That super pastel color of the montipora definately means your in the low nutrient range but it may have gone too far or too fast for them imo. This is actually the color that red monti cap are in the wild when they are not near the coast where humans pollute the water....

I dont run bio-pellets on my systems at this time, but I didnt think you were supposed to run carbon and gfo and the same time as biopellets.

[kole18]

i think to run a bp you gotta dose some additives like zeobak or they say to feed your bp in order to kick in the bp. i remember buying zeobak & dosing inside of reactors i even try to dose a vinegar. but anyway it gives me a good & bad result. i ended up loosing some nice pcs of sps colony & on the good result other corals like lps some sps colors came back but then other of my sps still continueing slowly bleached from the bottom base. i decided to pull off the bp a few months ago i ended having gfo & cheatos a sanbed in my sump as well lr's,  the result nitrates slowly drop down to 0.

[Rybren]

I definately don't think that I'm nutrient poor - or even on the verge of nutrient welfare.  That was the big reason for trying the pellets.  I may have reduced the levels too quickly and will try to reverse things.  I know that the jury is still out on the pellets and there are may recommended practices - fast tumble, slow tumble, no tumble, GAC & GFO, no GAC &GFO, etc.

Those two Acros in the background were brown when I picked them up over a year ago, and they're still brown, although one has been developing nice blue tips.  I have another acro that has good bright green to it and another very small frag that is very blue.  I do suspect, however, that my overall nutrient levels are too high for good acro colouration.

Here's the latest FTS - overall I'm pretty happy and will be even happier if I can reverse the Monti decline.

[redbelly]

I have not met a single person that has been successful running biopellets in the long run (over 1 year) on a full reef.

I know Adam (no idea his online name) was running the biopellets on his reef and with everyone else that I have met and/or read about online the exact same thing happened in your tank that happened in his. Montipora were hit the worste, birdsnest also suffered terrible, millipora super slow stn'd and the acropora never really colored up. Infact he said that his acropora colored up better once he took the biopellets off line! He also reports PE was pretty poor, but the best when he used reeflux 12k lamps and was dosing with FAuna Marin Organic, MinS and Amin.

I wish I could say I had heard different reviews and reports from people that have used biopellets but this seems to be a common result with people that have used them and are approaching the 8-12 month mark.

There are so many factors here as you pointed out with respect to ideal flow rates through the pellets, plus each type of pellet is different, media vs no media, etc

IMO if it sounds too good to be true it probably is.
And thats what biopellets are with respect to creating a ULNS.
Yes they do reduce nitrates and p04 but IMO they do not work for creating a true ULNS.
If you want a true UNLS you need to either run a Zeovite or UltraLith system. And yes these system do require dailey dosing and plunging of the media. Dosing of everything but the bacteria source can be automated with Ultra Lith but not Zeolith (quantities dosed with zeolith are too small for a dosing pump). For plunging the media I have an idea that I would really like to try out shortly to automate this that would be super cheap and easy. Just waiting to setup our dedicated sps coral beds before I mod me reactor cause there is just no way that I will plunge the media daily....

[kole18]

im one of those guys who had a bp for 3 months really almost wiped out my entire tank. theres one guy from RC's his from EU got successfull running this BP in his tank not really know his name but you can tell his tank its so amazing "krystofz" im not sure if this is his user name at RC's. i remember his tank was choosen for " tank of the month". im take a look at this on rc's tonight.

[Hookup]

mine are stable and healing again...  why?  water changes are the only thing that i've done...

it's not much, but there you have it... something was in my water column that my monti's didn't like (again) and the water changes took care of it... i'm on my 3rd one in 6 days tonight so it's a bit early to be 100% certain but i believe i am now headed i a good direction.

[Rybren]

Patrick,

I'm pretty happy with the tank - it's not perfect, but I like it.  My reasons for giving the pellets a try was to simply reduce nutrient levels somewhat without really achieving ULNS.  As you know, the pellets ARE SUPPOSED to promote extra bacterial growth which, in turn, consume more nutrients.  This technology has been in use in the waste water management industry for years and it seems to be quite successful.  Unfortunately, as you've mentioned, it can also have a detrimental effect on our tanks.  Perhaps we're not using the technology correctly or maybe it has some unknown side effect on our corals that we just haven't discovered yet.

I thought that it was worth giving them a shot.  Guess I was wrong, but if we never fail, then we never learn.

My Birdsnest is also starting to decline - less PE and I'm pretty sure that the water is too clean for the Elegance, because it is also showing signs of strain.

I've decided to stop running the pellets.  Now the question is....  Do I remove them all at once or do I do it gradually by removing some pellets over a period of time?

[weese3]

Rybren the pellets are 100% your problem..  I was in the same boat as you about a year and a half ago.  My system was ticking right along and I got the brain wave that I wanted to try the new big thing..  Bio Pellets.  Well everything was great until I hit the 6-8 month mark an then it all went down hill.  My monti's started looking IDENTICAL to what yours look like, my birdsnests started to have zero polyp extension that soon led to STN.  I saw very slow STN in some millies and other acros too.

I pulled my pellets all at once.  I also did some major water changes at the same time.

In my rage of the pellets being the problem I left them in the nextreef reactors sitting on he floor in my fishroom and went to bed after pulling them offline.  48 hours later I decided I better clean out the reactors and to my amazement the pellets, water and walls of the reactor were BLACK..  I mean stinky death OMG black sludge in there.  I could only imagine what was going on in there to cause this, but it ended with 2 MR1 reactors being tossed in the garbage because no matter what I did to clean them, they still smelled like death.

There are lots of others with bad experience with pellets all over the other major saltwater forums.

Adam

[JetJumper]

...because no matter what I did to clean them, they still smelled like death.

I know what smell you are talking about.. ITS NASTY!!!  I took my pellets offline when I was moving my sump to a new area and they sat for a week in the container.. eek.. I had to leave the house for a few hours as it was sooo GROSS!

Anywho, I saw something similar with my moniti's when I put the pellets back online in the new sump.. however it settled out and they came back.  I try to clean my pellet reactor ever so often to prevent build up.

[NjOyRiD]

Its been an year and half I've been using bio pellets

I see a prob with smaller monti frags
but my colonies are very nice

[Rybren]

Just a quick update - I lost all of my Monti Caps and most of my Digis.  Once the downhill slide started, I just couldn't seem to stop it.

Sorry Bubbles - that Yellow Cap you gave me had quickly grown into a huge colony and it was my pride and joy.

[asp60]

I Have been running biopellets on all my systems for about two years now and I have nothing to say but great things about them...I think there are one of the greatest things to come out in  in this hobby the past few years. Since i have started using them I have noticed great colours in my corals .. I now always have zero Nitrates & Phosphate.

Not sure whats not to like about them they massively  increase your biological filter  with huge amounts of bacteria and feed you corals bacterial Plankton as well. One key factor in using them tho is too make sure they are all tumbling all the time inside the reactor. I have tried running them in several different types of reactors in the past.... and alltho they cost more I would recommend that you do you an actual biopellet reactor. The difference is the bottom of the reactor is cone shape which makes it ver efficient in tumbling the pellets. I would also say the the recomended amounts they tell you to use are way underrated  I run 3 times the amount they tell you to. When adding them to your system for the first time start with a small amount at first because they will cause a small PH drop and make your water a little cloudy for the firs few days.

Anyhow though I would just share the success I have had with them  maybe this will help out.

[Hookup]

@Ryben,  sucks... hopefully things will continue to improve and you'll again get some monster caps... 

@asp60, Good stuff that you've had success with them... many people have... i think the fear is the number of "my system crashed" or what not stories that are either loosely or directly linked back to adding pellets to their systems.    The crappy thing about the hobby is that its not science...so you never really get to the root of what really happens...

[Rybren]

It is very discouraging.  The tank had been coming along so well too.

[NjOyRiD]

are you gonna try for more caps?

[Rybren]

Yup.  I have a couple of very small pieces that I had put in my pico and frag tanks a few months ago.  I'll eventually move them to the DT.

[cn]

sorry to hear about your loss. I've never used anything else besides dosing cal, alk, mag...I figure if it works why change it.....I have lot of monti digi, cap.... and they are all growing like weed in my tank.

[xenon]

sorry to hear about your loss. I've never used anything else besides dosing cal, alk, mag...I figure if it works why change it.....I have lot of monti digi, cap.... and they are all growing like weed in my tank.

How do you maintain low nitrates/phosphates?

[cn]

How do you maintain low nitrates/phosphates?

To tell you the truth, I have not measured level of nitrate & phosphate for almost 4 years now. I'm running phosphate reactor and cheato in sump. My tank is not the cleanest tank out there but all corals seem doing very well.

[kole18]

Cn the dirty tank you've got the more healthy your corals are same here, i've been running Gfo on & off. But basically a sanbed of carbic seamud & cheatos corals seems very happy. The only thing is my problem those coralline algeas it's all my glass I will scrape it for a week the following week it's back again. But you know my montis it's growing crazy & some acro too. Bio-pellets I've run these for a while it just too much to maintain you've gotta feed your tank well enough to sustain what's these bp to work on your tank. I've seen video clips on YouTube the way they over feed their tank because of BP, arhh too much time for me to do all this kind of work just enough for me to dose a bio cal everyday & change my Gfo media every 2nd month atleast & change water every month too. I hate to say I've lost a few colony of my acro causes of these BP it's ok to try, but having said gotta read the instruction 1st. I've got purple monti cup about 3 layer of cup already just a few hrs it bleached I really missed these monti.

[xenon]

To tell you the truth, I have not measured level of nitrate & phosphate for almost 4 years now. I'm running phosphate reactor and cheato in sump. My tank is not the cleanest tank out there but all corals seem doing very well.

If you remove all phosphates from the water with GFO, how can Cheato even grow?

I do like the idea of using both so that you can maintain stable PH with a reverse photo period.

[kole18]

What seems to noticed is cheato don't grow fast if your running Gfo at same time. But when I offline my Gfo , cheatos grown crazy.

[xenon]

What seems to noticed is cheato don't grow fast if your running Gfo at same time. But when I offline my Gfo , cheatos grown crazy.

Exactly.

That's why I am curious about CN's method.

He must be running a small amount of GFO in order for Cheato to even survive.

[cn]

Exactly.

That's why I am curious about CN's method.

He must be running a small amount of GFO in order for Cheato to even survive.

You 're right. I only run small amount of GFO in the reactor and change it every 3 months; And the cheato doesn't grow fast but that's just perfect for me. I don't want to keep prunning it all the time. This low maintenance method seems working ok for me.