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No action in saltwater ?? And classifieds

Started by bandit, February 08, 2013, 12:00:13 AM

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bandit

What's going on there has been no action in the saltwater section for months seems its the same 5 guys that post????

What can we do to improve this? What about signs or banners for ovas at our supporting venders??


I have also noticed the classified section is very slow??? What's going on. One would be led to believe the member fee is to high so it's not worth the hassle.

What's going on ovas??

percula99

I have to agree with Bandit. I used to be able to sell corals no problem on here. A few years ago I sold $400 worth in one weekend. Now, after a couple of hundred views I am lucky if I can sell one $20 frag. Well, that will at least cover my membership.  :-\ Something has happened here that really needs to be fixed. Anybody have any thoughts on this?
180 gallon reef. 250 lbs live rock. Mostly LPS and softies with some SPS. Show fish are Blonde Naso, Emperor Angel, mated Ocellaris clowns. 504 watt LEDs..

Papdul16

I would agree with percula99 that his sell are down because there is 50% less people visiting the site.  I'm a non member and I can't even have access to give stuff away for FREE. So I'm posting FREE stuff on Kijiji , I would rather give it to an OVAS member.   I understand completely when selling stuff but giving it away.

Anyhow I think I should at least have acces to "Free" section in the classified Ads.



7 tanks running of African cichlids

Achilles

I too have been wondering what is going on with at least in the classifieds. If has taken me forever to if at all to sell some equipment on the classifieds. Nothing really seems to be moving. It looks like its down to one page and the bottom add is over a month old. I know when I first came on this board, the first page would be mostly new adds and a month old add would be barried on page 3 or 4 at least. Its not just corals but all seem to be suffering trying to sell on ovas classifieds. Thought maybe the economy or more people downsizing but there have been crazy good deals and nothing selling. Also notice that there is really no a lot of action in many of the threads. What once was what I thought and amazing forum for the local area is really dwindled in acton. Is there just not many new people coming to the hobby as I heard from one store. Is it even the site. As I have seen quite the drop in people at the stores, where once were insane on shipment days now just a few. Another example is look at bigs box week sale. I remember if you didn't get there almost on opening of boxing day all istant ocean would be gone, now you can show up the next day and still get some. I will say this though there is more people trying to sell aquarium stuff on kijiji that I notice here.

Greatwhite

In regards to selling equipment on the classifieds, I think that most of the salt people here are all set up and probably not looking to get anyone's used stuff.  Most people just starting up don't even know about OVAS and the forum until after they have most of their equipment too.  There are some exceptions, of course...

So ya... Trying to sell items here will be slow because there's not a huge number of people actively looking for things.  It's certainly nice to give people on the forum first shot at things, but if you want to hit more people with your ads, you are better off on Kijiji for a quicker sale...

When I'm trying to sell something in a hurry, I take into account the fact that what I'm selling is USED.  USED items should not be priced the same as new - no matter how little use it actually had.  I tend to price things at 50% of what I paid, knowing that I'm going to take a loss - but at least it will have sold.

Selling frags and fish, I'd imagine that if prices were set a little lower in the classifieds, people might be more inclined to jump on it.  $40 for a Bubble tip anemone is what I'd pay at a store, so I'd expect a little break buying direct from someone on the classifieds.

I look at the classifieds daily, but I haven't seen anything worth pursuing... The few things I did see ended up sold quickly.

Darth

Quote from: Greatwhite on February 08, 2013, 10:32:48 AM
In regards to selling equipment on the classifieds, I think that most of the salt people here are all set up and probably not looking to get anyone's used stuff.  Most people just starting up don't even know about OVAS and the forum until after they have most of their equipment too.  There are some exceptions, of course...

So ya... Trying to sell items here will be slow because there's not a huge number of people actively looking for things.  It's certainly nice to give people on the forum first shot at things, but if you want to hit more people with your ads, you are better off on Kijiji for a quicker sale...

When I'm trying to sell something in a hurry, I take into account the fact that what I'm selling is USED.  USED items should not be priced the same as new - no matter how little use it actually had.  I tend to price things at 50% of what I paid, knowing that I'm going to take a loss - but at least it will have sold.

Selling frags and fish, I'd imagine that if prices were set a little lower in the classifieds, people might be more inclined to jump on it.  $40 for a Bubble tip anemone is what I'd pay at a store, so I'd expect a little break buying direct from someone on the classifieds.

I look at the classifieds daily, but I haven't seen anything worth pursuing... The few things I did see ended up sold quickly.
I agree with this 100% all too often people take what "they paid" and try to recoup as much of that cost as possible, in the sellers mind its a great deal. you can get this for 10% less then retail, but we often forget, that retail something is new and comes with a manufacture warranty for hardgoods. Take into consideration the time you had it, say you paid 100 for an item, and have had it for 3 2 years, your cost to enjoy said item was $50 a year, so selling it at $90 I would not buy it, selling at 50 I would, during this time you have gotten your moneys worth, it is not just about what it cost you, its about what you got out of it as well. frags if you are selling frags the same price as a store, I would rather go to the store to help promote local business, the frag you have may have started as a frag and you grew it out and have enjoyed it and now would like to frag it, consider retail has a lot more overhead than you, they have to run a business, they have to pay for the import so yes they have to sell higher, so your deal all considered is not a deal, I myself have sold frags on here for what I felt were a great price, I have often sold my anenmome clones for 20-30, I just recently sold one to someone on used O for $35 the dude came to my house wouldn't you know there happened to be 2 nems on the rock, so he got them both for $35. Yes we all like to make money, I bought said nem for $25, and it has cloned numerous times, so when I can sell them I sell them cheap (these are nice nems too) I think all too often we forget we are not business owners we are hobbyists, and maybe should conisder paying it forward, when I sell frags I often give other frags I have as well, just because I have lots of it but thats just me I guess =)

Greatwhite

You also need to take into account the whole "supply and demand" concept.  If you have a one of a kind item that NO store will ever have - set your own price.  But if you're selling guppies, you should look at market value and go from there.

I had a Deltec MCE 600 that I paid $500 for, and had it shipped to me from Vancouver when I started.  I used it for 8 months, and then it sat in storage after being cleaned and restored to "as new" condition.  A few years later, I was on another forum and someone asked where to get a good HOB skimmer.  I told him about that model, and that I had one.  To buy them new at that time, I think they were about $350.  BUT, no one had any in stock.  So I sold him mine for $300, and shipped it to Kitchener "free".

If that skimmer was available at any local store, I would certainly have reduced my price to $150...  He still got it under the cost of new, but no warranty, and only blind trust in my word that it was in NEW condition... (And a video on Youtube showing it work)  He was still leery about buying a used skimmer for so much, but when he got it, he was VERY happy with his purchase.

If a BTA is available in stores at $40, a good selling price is, as Darth mentioned, $20-$30ish.  But, if your anemone drops a baby who mutates into a unique color, or gains the ability to talk - well, jack the price up! No store has a talking anemone!

Keep in mind that some certain stores have their fish prices WAAAAY off, so keep this in mind when looking for market value of what you are selling...  Smaller LFS set good prices...

percula99

As I mentioned previously, one weekend a few years ago I sold $400 worth of corals. I have not changed my pricing but now I can't sell anything. I have a piece of green acro that MS would sell for $80 plus tax. I am asking $35, no tax so I don't think I am expecting too much. And I know they have to charge tax, that is part of doing business commercially. All my other corals are priced likewise. Achilles tried to sell a 210 aquarium for $400, including canopy and stand. It took him six months and several postings, and I know that is a unique item. The point being that a few years ago you could sell thing on OVAS, but it seems sales have dried up on this site. The question from the original poster was why has this happened. There are some people who do ask too much, but not all do. You seem to be saying everyone asks too much that is why no one sells anything. I disagree with your rationale. People have pointed to the fact you need to a paying member to post. Fine, I am a paying member. I buy my OVAS membership every year. I get discounts at some LFS in town. That's great for me and I thank the vendors who offer it. I think you have explained why some people don't sell any longer, but you have missed the mark for why overall sales have droppped on this site. That is the question that was asked and that is the question that needs to be answered.
180 gallon reef. 250 lbs live rock. Mostly LPS and softies with some SPS. Show fish are Blonde Naso, Emperor Angel, mated Ocellaris clowns. 504 watt LEDs..

Darth

I don't believe the mark was missed at all, I reg check other local classified sections on other sites, and the amount of sw items have reduced all around, I believe as stated before by Greatwhite its supply and demand, a lot of the people on this forum are seasoned, and have no need for frags they have their own they are trying to sell. I dont think there is a particular reason classifieds here are slow, as I stated they are slow all around, a year ago is a long time in this hobby all those frags you sold to people have prob grown out by now, and they have no need. And dont forgot how many people leave the sw hobby because of cost, or moving or whatever, I don't believe the lull in the classifieds has anything to do with just members only, as anyone can pm a poster who is selling something, it seems to be more of a seller being upset, as opposed to a buyer who can't find anything

bandit

Its not only, that things are moving new things are not even available, i would love to buy and trade items but theres nothing there....

I try and price items at what I would get store credit for them, just giving the chance for someone else. I would almost prefer to trade and help others out.

But there is an issue on here that needs to be resolved WE NEED TO GET MORE MEMBERS There should be a sign at our LFS for OVAS

Its not only the classifieds its the whole salt water section.

percula99

More members would definitely help, but I must agree with Darth, there are less people in the hobby and it is due in part to the high cost of being successful. That being said I spoke with MS last week and was told they have seen an upswing in new people over the past year. That is a positive sign. Maybe things can pick up.

In another thread on OVAS (See link below) a non member poster was saying he found he couldn't post in the FREE section. He was told if he didn't want to be a member to go post on Kijiji or Used Ottawa. I found that to be a little negative. It might have been more useful to inform him of the benefits of being a member. Maybe he would have seen the light and paid for a membership. A membership drive could help that. Like Bandit said, have signs at LFS to promote that.

I used to be a member on...dare I say it...Aquaria. Most people left that site and came to OVAS. I don't want to see the same thing happen here for salties like us.

http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=55785.0
180 gallon reef. 250 lbs live rock. Mostly LPS and softies with some SPS. Show fish are Blonde Naso, Emperor Angel, mated Ocellaris clowns. 504 watt LEDs..

Darth

Quote from: percula99 on February 08, 2013, 02:36:01 PM
More members would definitely help, but I must agree with Darth, there are less people in the hobby and it is due in part to the high cost of being successful. That being said I spoke with MS last week and was told they have seen an upswing in new people over the past year. That is a positive sign. Maybe things can pick up.

In another thread on OVAS (See link below) a non member poster was saying he found he couldn't post in the FREE section. He was told if he didn't want to be a member to go post on Kijiji or Used Ottawa. I found that to be a little negative. It might have been more useful to inform him of the benefits of being a member. Maybe he would have seen the light and paid for a membership. A membership drive could help that. Like Bandit said, have signs at LFS to promote that.

I used to be a member on...dare I say it...Aquaria. Most people left that site and came to OVAS. I don't want to see the same thing happen here for salties like us.

http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=55785.0
yes I was a member of the other forum as well, and found this one more lively, so decided to just come here, I agree with the other poster being told to go to other sites was wrong, its like going into a bell store, and being told to go to telus, because they don't have home phone LOL , and as pointed out perhaps the sponsers can have a sign such as proud sponsor of ovas that may bring more attention here, and also not for nothing maybe its just me, but I have noticed there has been a lot more politics here than there was say 2 years ago, this also turns off new people, when they post and get berated with a good scolding  >:(

Greatwhite

Quote from: percula99 on February 08, 2013, 01:26:41 PM
The question from the original poster was why has this happened. There are some people who do ask too much, but not all do. You seem to be saying everyone asks too much that is why no one sells anything. I disagree with your rationale.

Sorry, I didn't say that everyone posts for too much, so nothing is selling.  I'm saying that lots of people who are looking for things is looking for the amazing deal and "good" deals are being passed on.  If I don't NEED something, I'm not going to buy it unless it's an amazing deal.  AND, most amazing deals are gone by the time I see them.

Yes, more members would be great, but I don't think that Ottawa has as many salties as say Toronto.  There are some sponsors who sell the memberships in their stores (Fishtail being one), and I'm sure I'm not the only person who will direct people to the forum when they are starting up if I happen to be in a store while they're buying everything in sight.

So how DO you get members?  Advertise?  Does OVAS have the budget to advertise?  I'm not sure that I'd want my annual membership fee to increase so that we can put an ad on the radio, but that's just me.

ajm1961

Just a  note regarding membership: we did a lot of work in the fall to recruit new people, and we succeeded. We currently have around 125 paid members - more than twice the amount we had last year...
SHARE YOUR PASSION FOR THE HOBBY!

Greatwhite

Quote from: ajm1961 on February 08, 2013, 07:00:03 PM
Just a  note regarding membership: we did a lot of work in the fall to recruit new people, and we succeeded. We currently have around 125 paid members - more than twice the amount we had last year...


there ya go.. then the answer is that no one is looking to buy & sell much these days.  Spring cleaning might boost activity... and tax returns. :)

delslo

I have also noticed a decline in the activity of OVAS...let me restate that, a dramatic decline in the activity on OVAS. I honestly believe that a large portion of the decline can be attributed to the removal of non paying members' ability to post in the classifieds. I do understand the reasoning behind the removal of the privilege, but I feel like it had a detrimental effect on OVAS. The way I see it, those who come to view classifieds often find themselves surfing and contributing to the forums aswell. In addition if someone is searching for a part for their aquarium one of the first stops is google. If you type into google a part that is listed on OVAS, it posts a link to OVAS, thus spreading the society.

Before I became a member of OVAS I was a member of KWAS in Kitchener. KWAS recently underwent a massive renovation as its server had become overwhelmed. I want everyone to realize that the population of Ottawa is ~900 000 while the population of Kitchener is ~250 000. While the KWAS forum is highly active and growing ours has stagnated. Now I can't say for certain that the classifieds issue is the reason this, what I can say is that the KWAS classifieds forum is free for anyone to post while ours you must be a paying member. In addition I found that the posting frequency went down around the time the classified section permissions changed.

Although the paying member count may have increased the activity on the forum has decreased. The forum leads to the paying member not the other way around.
Just my two cents, or should it be nickel now?

percula99

Quote from: delslo on February 08, 2013, 10:12:17 PM
I have also noticed a decline in the activity of OVAS...let me restate that, a dramatic decline in the activity on OVAS. I honestly believe that a large portion of the decline can be attributed to the removal of non paying members' ability to post in the classifieds. I do understand the reasoning behind the removal of the privilege, but I feel like it had a detrimental effect on OVAS. The way I see it, those who come to view classifieds often find themselves surfing and contributing to the forums aswell. In addition if someone is searching for a part for their aquarium one of the first stops is google. If you type into google a part that is listed on OVAS, it posts a link to OVAS, thus spreading the society.

Before I became a member of OVAS I was a member of KWAS in Kitchener. KWAS recently underwent a massive renovation as its server had become overwhelmed. I want everyone to realize that the population of Ottawa is ~900 000 while the population of Kitchener is ~250 000. While the KWAS forum is highly active and growing ours has stagnated. Now I can't say for certain that the classifieds issue is the reason this, what I can say is that the KWAS classifieds forum is free for anyone to post while ours you must be a paying member. In addition I found that the posting frequency went down around the time the classified section permissions changed.

Although the paying member count may have increased the activity on the forum has decreased. The forum leads to the paying member not the other way around.
Just my two cents, or should it be nickel now?

Despite everything that has been said in this thread, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I used to sell things on OVAS all the time, but as soon as they started insisting you be a paying member to post, sales have just stopped.
180 gallon reef. 250 lbs live rock. Mostly LPS and softies with some SPS. Show fish are Blonde Naso, Emperor Angel, mated Ocellaris clowns. 504 watt LEDs..

Wooki

#17
Quote from: percula99 on February 08, 2013, 10:48:59 PM
Despite everything that has been said in this thread, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I used to sell things on OVAS all the time, but as soon as they started insisting you be a paying member to post, sales have just stopped.

I've noticed that salty discussion dwindling here too (I have a membership)
I think some people didn't like the OVAS membership requirement to sell on the OVAS site, so they created some face book groups that are quite active with discussion, lots of group buys, and a few people selling things.

link removed
180g mixed reef,
Mostly LPS with some SPS.
powder blue tang, Desjardin's sailfin tang, mandarin goby, clowns, lots of inverts

Darth

#18
Quote from: Wooki on February 08, 2013, 11:21:05 PM
I've noticed that salty discussion dwindling here too (I have a membership)
I think some people didn't like the OVAS membership requirement to sell on the OVAS site, so they created some face book groups that are quite active with discussion, lots of group buys, and a few people selling things.

link removed

I had joined this group, but had left because of the negativity towards here, I was tired of the name calling and all around immaturity, maybe it's changed who knows

NjOyRiD

Since then, no one is aloud to talk about ovas
Any comments against ovas will be deleted :)
370g System

220g tank, 65g Sump. octopus Cone skimmer xp-5000, vertex zf-30 nitrate reactor, RX6 DUO Ca reactor, Mp60w Ecotech pump, 2x 400w MH XM bulbs 15k. All controlled with DA RKE-net controller, Water Blaster HY-3000 return pump, Vertex Zf-15/Carbon, Vertex Zf-15/GFO

bandit

I used to be an admin for a car forum in ottawa and things were great, then they insisted on charging members $10 fee to post in the classifieds, a group o members left and started there own forum with free classifieds and relied only on sponsors and donations. The flourished and our site ended up closing.

With all the sponsors on here it's hard to believe they need to have a $20 fee for members. 

Another site I'm on has free classifieds and a $10 member donation fee you get a gift with your fee and the gift chages from stickersd to a t shirt to sweater ect.. pending on your donation. the member fee allows you to enter a member only discussion, and they do monthly contests with prices donated from sponsors. This makes it fun.  It also gives you a large pm box the ability to have a nice avatar ect.. For example non members can ave 10 Pm's supporting get 250. 

By doing this it allows new members to post thing for sale and once they start get replys there box gets full, forcing them to upgrade :P

Free classifieds brings people to he site then once there here they start surfing around..

fish

Maybe collapsing all saltwater discussion into a single forum might help stimulate a bit more activity. I really only come here to see what the sponsors are selling these days. That big US centric Site has has alot more action and diversity and costs nothing to post to classifieds and you don't have to go through a bunch of stuff at the front end of the site to get anywhere (as far as I can tell this is the only forum in the world like that). I see more Canadians there than I see here, including some of the members here (you know who you are).

I visit the LFS fairly regularly. There are more people in the store on any given visit than on this forum on any given time. They must be out there.

I used to be active on Aquaria Canada and I find it hard to believe that there are that many fewer salties in Ottawa than there was 6years ago. That site, in its heyday was something to look forward to each day.

I don't visit often or post here because a) I find the policies of this forum to be a bit draconian and b) I don't feel like spending my time digging through multiple forums to find anything new. I would love to be part of a good local forum again.

I realize I sound like a jerk but I am just trying to offer a perspective of someone in Ottawa who is actively engaged in the hobby but tuned out of this forum. Feel free to ignore me:-)

bandit

Quote from: fish on February 09, 2013, 11:14:36 AM
Maybe collapsing all saltwater discussion into a single forum might help stimulate a bit more activity. I really only come here to see what the sponsors are selling these days. That big US centric Site has has alot more action and diversity and costs nothing to post to classifieds and you don't have to go through a bunch of stuff at the front end of the site to get anywhere (as far as I can tell this is the only forum in the world like that). I see more Canadians there than I see here, including some of the members here (you know who you are).

I visit the LFS fairly regularly. There are more people in the store on any given visit than on this forum on any given time. They must be out there.

I used to be active on Aquaria Canada and I find it hard to believe that there are that many fewer salties in Ottawa than there was 6years ago. That site, in its heyday was something to look forward to each day.

I don't visit often or post here because a) I find the policies of this forum to be a bit draconian and b) I don't feel like spending my time digging through multiple forums to find anything new. I would love to be part of a good local forum again.

I realize I sound like a jerk but I am just trying to offer a perspective of someone in Ottawa who is actively engaged in the hobby but tuned out of this forum. Feel free to ignore me:-)

Well said god it's annoying to have go through the 3 steps to get on its like filling out government forms lol

Greatwhite

Quote from: bandit on February 09, 2013, 11:25:31 AM
Well said god it's annoying to have go through the 3 steps to get on its like filling out government forms lol

3 steps? I made a bookmark to the forum, and I have it set to auto log me on.  I click my link and am even scrolled down to the salt section.  *shrug*

Darth

Quote from: Greatwhite on February 09, 2013, 01:03:03 PM
3 steps? I made a bookmark to the forum, and I have it set to auto log me on.  I click my link and am even scrolled down to the salt section.  *shrug*

I agree the first time u come its very redundant but afterwards wards I just set my favs as www.ovas.ca/forum

Katcouti

#25
Quote from: bandit on February 09, 2013, 10:11:53 AM
I used to be an admin for a car forum in ottawa and things were great, then they insisted on charging members $10 fee to post in the classifieds, a group o members left and started there own forum with free classifieds and relied only on sponsors and donations. The flourished and our site ended up closing.

With all the sponsors on here it's hard to believe they need to have a $20 fee for members.  

Another site I'm on has free classifieds and a $10 member donation fee you get a gift with your fee and the gift chages from stickersd to a t shirt to sweater ect.. pending on your donation. the member fee allows you to enter a member only discussion, and they do monthly contests with prices donated from sponsors. This makes it fun.  It also gives you a large pm box the ability to have a nice avatar ect.. For example non members can ave 10 Pm's supporting get 250.  

By doing this it allows new members to post thing for sale and once they start get replys there box gets full, forcing them to upgrade :P

Free classifieds brings people to he site then once there here they start surfing around..

With all the sponsors we certainly could have free posting, but I was also made aware that some sponsors were rejected like link removed a local store, starting up and the owner is also OVAS member. Those people are very honest, they go by the book, no gimic or cheating and still we cannot find them here. This is very bad for the members, unless saltwater sponsors are not needed anymore ?

Darth

Quote from: Katcouti on February 09, 2013, 04:57:17 PM
With all the sponsors we certainly could have free posting, but I was also made aware that some sponsors were rejected like canadacorals.com a local store, starting up and the owner is also OVAS member. Those people are very honest, they go by the book, no gimic or cheating and still we cannot find them here. This is very bad for the members, unless saltwater sponsors are not needed anymore ?
I can't see why a would be sponsor would be rejected, I wasnt aware there was a requirement to be a sponsor

Katcouti

Last time I was at their store they mentioned trying and never got anything back from OVAS team. They were simply ignored. My word is we cannot ignore any sponsors all money is good money specially if it was acquired legally no ?

Coral beauty

 when I first start out in salt 4 years ago, was a  paying member under a different user name.
was very proud when I received my card, until I try to use it at a store that should be remain nameless.
the owner told me the card does work there his price is low as it is and he is already paying to advertise there already why would he give discount. he say next time I want to use the card tell him  so he can raise the price and give me discount.

Darth

Quote from: Coral beauty on February 09, 2013, 06:39:38 PM
when I first start out in salt 4 years ago, was a  paying member under a different user name.
was very proud when I received my card, until I try to use it at a store that should be remain nameless.
the owner told me the card does work there his price is low as it is and he is already paying to advertise there already why would he give discount. he say next time I want to use the card tell him  so he can raise the price and give me discount.

having a membership NEVER guaranteed you a discount at retailers, there is a list though of which ones do offer it

bandit

I can't believe the would turn own a legitimate sponsor like Canada Corals, I hope there was no politics involved. It's possible there is more to the story.

I too brought my card to I believe the same store and got the answer but though it was funny. One thing I did notice is I just payed a couple weeks ago and my card set valid only till sept???????  >:(

Maybe they should drop the member fees and increase the sponsor fees. 

Coral beauty

Quote from: Darth on February 09, 2013, 08:30:08 PM
having a membership NEVER guaranteed you a discount at retailers, there is a list though of which ones do offer it

it was one of the sponsor store.  only store that would honour the discount was fishtail and bigale.
why advertise the sponsoring store when they laugh at you when you try using it.
bigale  made it clear that no discount given on tank and equipment.

Stussi613

#32
I'm not sure why the sponsorship request on OVAS is being discussed on this thread, but I'm going to advise everyone that is posting links to external sites on here to stop doing it. It's against the policies of the forum. As long as people play nice I'll leave this thread going, but I'd appreciate it if people are being told things by a potential sponsor that they refrain from posting about it on here and potentially causing this thread to start getting out of hand.  

Stuart
OVAS Library Chair and Head Moderator
I haz reef tanks.

Stussi613

Quote from: Coral beauty on February 09, 2013, 09:10:43 PM
it was one of the sponsor store.  only store that would honour the discount was fishtail and bigale.
why advertise the sponsoring store when they laugh at you when you try using it.
bigale  made it clear that no discount given on tank and equipment.

I've been a member of this forum for 6 years and I've never had one of the sponsors you mentioned refuse a discount on the items you've mentioned. If you are experiencing this at a store that advertises the discount on OVAS you need to email the corporate relations chair.
I haz reef tanks.

Stussi613

The membership this year is 3x what it was last year.

The classifieds were closed to non-members because moderating them was a full time job. Many people broke the rules about re-posting ads, and argued with (and in some cases verbally abused) the mods who are volunteers just doing their jobs.

In my opinion the classifieds, specifically for corals, is slow because of a few reasons:

- The number of people fragging corals is higher now than it was even a year ago.
- There are allot of stores in Ottawa that have frags for sale.
- There are several home based business people importing corals into Ottawa and selling them at low prices due to low overhead.

If people aren't posting topics on the forum because they cant post in the classifieds then I feel bad for the salty community on OVAS.  The sponsorship of the forum is very heavy on the salty side and there are lots of great people on this site with great knowledge...
I haz reef tanks.

JetJumper

Sure membership is up however it has no baring it seems on the use of the classifieds.. I am sure its mostly due to the fact that the club has done different actions then previous years and actually gone out to go get those members.

I think part of the "NO ACTION" is because the past 2 years has left a bitter taste for a lot of people with all the drama.  

Fully open Classifieds --> Lets Close the classifieds except for the free section --> Lets Open them with restrictions ---> Lets lock em down to paying members only (Atleast I think that's how it went? )

People just got too confused and now they just don't bother.  In all honesty if moderating them was the major reason there are plug-ins that could have solved multiple postings, abuse.. etc.. The Karma system was good too in my opinion.. however it seems that once one person complains.. it too got shut off.

***This is not a complaint.  this is just me simply rehashing the events as close as I can remember***
.: JetJumper's Zone :.

bandit

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 09, 2013, 09:36:47 PM
The membership this year is 3x what it was last year.

The classifieds were closed to non-members because moderating them was a full time job. Many people broke the rules about re-posting ads, and argued with (and in some cases verbally abused) the mods who are volunteers just doing their jobs.

In my opinion the classifieds, specifically for corals, is slow because of a few reasons:

- The number of people fragging corals is higher now than it was even a year ago.
- There are allot of stores in Ottawa that have frags for sale.
- There are several home based business people importing corals into Ottawa and selling them at low prices due to low overhead.

If people aren't posting topics on the forum because they cant post in the classifieds then I feel bad for the salty community on OVAS.  The sponsorship of the forum is very heavy on the salty side and there are lots of great people on this site with great knowledge...

I'm sorry to here about the abuse.

One would dthink if the number of people fragging was so much higher there would be an abundance of adds in the classifieds. If there are more stores popping it would mean there is more demand and more in the hobby, shouldn't we be getting more members?

One would be worried that the salt sponsors would soon decide its not worth it to them, if things don't  change and go somewhere else.

Darth

Quote from: Coral beauty on February 09, 2013, 06:39:38 PMn o
when I first start out in salt 4 years ago, was a  paying member under a different user name.
was very proud when I received my card, until I try to use it at a store that should be remain nameless.
the owner told me the card does work there his price is low as it is and he is already paying to advertise there already why would he give discount. he say next time I want to use the card tell him  so he can raise the price and give me discount.

you are right I know there used to be a list of participating sponsors that offered a discount, it seems now the "supporting sponsors" now lists all the sponsors, and you are correct I def know of one sponsor where I asked about ovas discount and told we don't offer that discount  they are always cheaper then the big chain stores, now this was 3 years ago don't know if it changed or not, but perhaps maybe a better way to know which sponsors do offer the discount and on what, as stated big al's offers it with the exclusion on certain hardgoods, but this is way off topic =)

az

some of you may not know this but there are 2 types of sponsorship one is pay less and offer members discounts and the other one is pay more and you do not have to offer discounts, we decided to pay more and offer no discounts this term as our wknd specials is cheaper than regular price with discounts.

now back  on topic the slow down has todo with ECONOMY, esp Ottawa first lost IT jobs and for last 1+ year so many gov jobs, also living cost ie food/utilities etc has gone up a lot, lot less time/funds for hobby IMO.



AQUA VALLEY    
1158 Ogilvie Road, Ottawa

2016 Hours
Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri >> 12-7pm
Sat, Sun >> 11-5pm
Mon >> CLOSED
Tel: 613 695 6961 Fax: 613 695 6532  
www.aquavalley.ca

Ottawa's BIGGEST SALTWATER Selection

Tel: 613 695 6961 Fax: 613 695 6532     www.aquavalley.ca

JetJumper

#39
Quote from: az on February 09, 2013, 11:16:07 PM
some of you may not know this but there are 2 types of sponsorship one is pay less and offer members discounts and the other one is pay more and you do not have to offer discounts, we decided to pay more and offer no discounts this term as our wknd specials is cheaper than regular price with discounts.

I think this is why people might be confused then, because OVAS states there is a discount.

http://ovas.ca/ovas/sponsors/aqua-valley
.: JetJumper's Zone :.

az

Quote from: JetJumper on February 09, 2013, 11:30:04 PM
Perhaps OVAS didn't get the memo that you paid more ;)

http://ovas.ca/ovas/sponsors/aqua-valley

I hope they look into paypal transaction history and fix this.

goodfind Jet no wonder I still get asked for ovas discounts.
AQUA VALLEY    
1158 Ogilvie Road, Ottawa

2016 Hours
Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri >> 12-7pm
Sat, Sun >> 11-5pm
Mon >> CLOSED
Tel: 613 695 6961 Fax: 613 695 6532  
www.aquavalley.ca

Ottawa's BIGGEST SALTWATER Selection

Tel: 613 695 6961 Fax: 613 695 6532     www.aquavalley.ca

bandit

#41
Haha lol, this is getting off topic ;). I don't fully agree with the economy to blame people didn't just shutdown there tanks. Yes it would tighten up the wallets less people would enter the hobby but there is still more hobbyists then before.   In 2008 they had 599 surfers in one day today we had 27??

You would think the for trade section would be full of members trying to save a buck.

az

Quote from: bandit on February 09, 2013, 11:43:48 PM
Haha lol, this is getting off topic ;). I don't fully agree with the economy to blame people didn't just shutdown there tanks. Yes it would tighten up the wallets less people would enter the hobby but there is still more hobbyists then before.   In 2008 they had 599 surfers in one day today we had 27??

You would think the for trade section would be full of members trying to save a buck.

unfortunately they do shut down some even switched to fw  :'(
AQUA VALLEY    
1158 Ogilvie Road, Ottawa

2016 Hours
Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri >> 12-7pm
Sat, Sun >> 11-5pm
Mon >> CLOSED
Tel: 613 695 6961 Fax: 613 695 6532  
www.aquavalley.ca

Ottawa's BIGGEST SALTWATER Selection

Tel: 613 695 6961 Fax: 613 695 6532     www.aquavalley.ca

JetJumper

Quote from: az on February 10, 2013, 12:03:48 AM
unfortunately they do shut down some even switched to fw  :'(


New Business opportunity for Az.. Freshwater ;)  haha
.: JetJumper's Zone :.

Coral beauty

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 09, 2013, 09:25:09 PM
I've been a member of this forum for 6 years and I've never had one of the sponsors you mentioned refuse a discount on the items you've mentioned. If you are experiencing this at a store that advertises the discount on OVAS you need to email the corporate relations chair.

putting it to a test upgrading my tank to a120.
have a friend with membership will update the result friday.

Coral beauty

Quote from: JetJumper on February 09, 2013, 11:30:04 PM
I think this is why people might be confused then, because OVAS states there is a discount.

http://ovas.ca/ovas/sponsors/aqua-valley

good find Jet!!!

sas

#46
Quote from: bandit on February 09, 2013, 11:43:48 PM
   In 2008 they had 599 surfers in one day today we had 27??


This statistic is false, there was a glitch in the system I believe is how it was explained to me. We've never had 599 online.
___________________________________________
Keep us honest and true as the horses we ride.

Darth

I say again check the other classified sites out there and search for coral, saltwater you will find maybe 3-4 ads so it is not just here

exv152

#48
I think if a sw sponsor is saying they've seen a decline in clients due to a weaker local economy, I would be inclined to believe them more than the average person. They're directly vested in the sw hobby, and have a lot to gain or lose if they don't make it their business to be informed.

That said, I think there's a new niche in the hobby that's been slowly gaining momentum both locally and abroad, and is a bit cheaper than sw - planted tanks. Maybe that's where they're going...
;)

Eric...
125g, 32g, 7g

Nerine

It wasn't a glitch...599 people in one day - that was when it was counting spiders/bots. crrazzy :)

it'd be cool if there were 600 people on in one day hahahahahaha but can you imagine ?? :D
55 Gallon: Zamora Woodcats, Gold Gourami, Severum, Convicts
Misc tanks: Glo Light Tetras, Harlequin Tetras, Danios, Platies, Guppies, Otto cats
Breeding: Platies, Guppies, Convicts

sas

Quote from: Nerine on February 10, 2013, 09:00:34 AM
It wasn't a glitch...599 people in one day - that was when it was counting spiders/bots. crrazzy :)

it'd be cool if there were 600 people on in one day hahahahahaha but can you imagine ?? :D

Thanks Nerine for verifying this :), I knew it was something silly ::).
___________________________________________
Keep us honest and true as the horses we ride.

percula99

Quote from: exv152 on February 10, 2013, 08:25:43 AM
I think if a sw sponsor is saying they've seen a decline in clients due to a weaker local economy, I would be inclined to believe them more than the average person. They're directly vested in the sw hobby, and have a lot to gain or lose if they don't make it their business to be informed.


I doubt if MarineScape will post in this thread, but as I mentioned before I spoke with them last week. I was told they had been concerned about a downswing in customers, but over the last year they have seen an upswing in new customers. They said business was good and looking up.
180 gallon reef. 250 lbs live rock. Mostly LPS and softies with some SPS. Show fish are Blonde Naso, Emperor Angel, mated Ocellaris clowns. 504 watt LEDs..

bandit


sylros

Quote from: az on February 09, 2013, 11:37:49 PM
I hope they look into paypal transaction history and fix this.

goodfind Jet no wonder I still get asked for ovas discounts.

Hi there,
It's been fixed AZ! Hopefully you won't be bugged as much any more!

bandit

Well just discovered aylmer salty's and have sold a bunch of frags on Facebook so, it's not slow everywhere just on here. I hope ovas does something to fix this downtime. I have heard a lot of excuses and stipulations but, would like for a mod to speak up on what they can do or what we an do to save the site.

az

Quote from: sylros on February 10, 2013, 10:04:31 PM
Hi there,
It's been fixed AZ! Hopefully you won't be bugged as much any more!

awsome thanks.
AQUA VALLEY    
1158 Ogilvie Road, Ottawa

2016 Hours
Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri >> 12-7pm
Sat, Sun >> 11-5pm
Mon >> CLOSED
Tel: 613 695 6961 Fax: 613 695 6532  
www.aquavalley.ca

Ottawa's BIGGEST SALTWATER Selection

Tel: 613 695 6961 Fax: 613 695 6532     www.aquavalley.ca

fish

Let me preface this with respectfully...

I just looked at the General Freshwater Discussion forum. It takes 6 pages to go back one full year. Saltwater slightly better in fact - 7 pages of posts to go back one year. You could read a year's worth of content in about an hour. Not alot of content.

The economy is slowing - sure - but there's still people in the stores every time I go - an they are there to spend money so things are happening. I totally rebuilt my 120 over Christmas. I have a build thread about it - but not here. I was just at a paying OVAS member's house tonight to look at some gear he had for sale and he just did a spectacular job putting together a 180 - no build thread - and there was a lot I could learn from what he did.

I joined that facebook group from across the river at the recommendation of some folks on this site to see what was going on there today. More active than here and there are only 147 members. I think I saw somewhere in this thread that OVAS was proud that there were 125 paying members. Ummm.... I realize you need to raise funds to make this go but does not reaching out to everyone who cares about aquariums add more value to your sponsors than collecting a whopping $2500? I don't know what the sponsors pay but you aren't likely to give them their money's worth or be able to extract more money if nobody comes to the site.

I don't think saltwater is dead or even close to dying in Ottawa. I think that there are many, many people in the hobby but they just don't care about OVAS. Frankly I am one of them. However, I think one unified forum for saltwater would be the best thing that we could have and I'd say this is the place that has the best chance of making it happen at the moment. The fragmentation is just making all the sites light on content and not particularly interesting. My guess is if something dramatic isn't done that this forum won't see another year. Again, just the opinion of somebody who isn't really relevant to OVAS so please don't take offence. I would love to have a strong local forum to participate in. I used to go to the MASOs back in the AC days (that's where I met Az years ago in fact), and it would be great to have a place to find people to swap frags with locally and just to have a community of like-minded hobbyists to share with and to lean on when things go wrong. The kindness of local OVAS participants have saved me huge on one occasion. You can't get that any other way.

Making the classifieds free - one small part of fixing the problem. Lightening up the policies perhaps another. i don't know what needs fixing but in my humble opinion it's broken and something needs to be done to save this site - freshwater and saltwater. I would love to care. I really would. My plea to those that work hard to make this site go - please lighten up - let people in and let them have full access to everything. This site is worth saving.

Again respectfully.

fish

Quote from: bandit on February 10, 2013, 10:30:28 PM
Well just discovered aylmer salty's and have sold a bunch of frags on Facebook so, it's not slow everywhere just on here. I hope ovas does something to fix this downtime. I have heard a lot of excuses and stipulations but, would like for a mod to speak up on what they can do or what we an do to save the site.

What bandit said - next time I'll try not to be so wordy:-) A place to swap/sell frags - that's worth something...

Coral beauty

Quote from: fish on February 10, 2013, 11:07:05 PM
What bandit said - next time I'll try not to be so wordy:-) A place to swap/sell frags - that's worth something...

I  believe he sold 4-5 frags on his first day.

percula99

My coral ad has been up for a week now and had 159 views. Only one person has contacted me asking a question, and has not contacted me again after I replied to his question. Bandit goes elsewhere and sells 4-5 corals in one day.  >:(

If the mods are reading this, and we know they are, I hope you are paying attention. You have heard the comments about relaxing the regulations and inforcing a "payer only can post" approach. If traffic on this site is down as suggested then it is incumbent upon you to act to rectify the problem and restore OVAS to the site of choice it used to be.
180 gallon reef. 250 lbs live rock. Mostly LPS and softies with some SPS. Show fish are Blonde Naso, Emperor Angel, mated Ocellaris clowns. 504 watt LEDs..

Fishnut

Quote from: fish on February 10, 2013, 11:04:20 PM


I joined that facebook group from across the river at the recommendation of some folks on this site to see what was going on there today. More active than here and there are only 147 members. I think I saw somewhere in this thread that OVAS was proud that there were 125 paying members. Ummm.... I realize you need to raise funds to make this go but does not reaching out to everyone who cares about aquariums add more value to your sponsors than collecting a whopping $2500? I don't know what the sponsors pay but you aren't likely to give them their money's worth or be able to extract more money if nobody comes to the site.

I don't think saltwater is dead or even close to dying in Ottawa. I think that there are many, many people in the hobby but they just don't care about OVAS. Frankly I am one of them. However, I think one unified forum for saltwater would be the best thing that we could have and I'd say this is the place that has the best chance of making it happen at the moment. The fragmentation is just making all the sites light on content and not particularly interesting. My guess is if something dramatic isn't done that this forum won't see another year. Again, just the opinion of somebody who isn't really relevant to OVAS so please don't take offence. I would love to have a strong local forum to participate in. I used to go to the MASOs back in the AC days (that's where I met Az years ago in fact), and it would be great to have a place to find people to swap frags with locally and just to have a community of like-minded hobbyists to share with and to lean on when things go wrong. The kindness of local OVAS participants have saved me huge on one occasion. You can't get that any other way.

Making the classifieds free - one small part of fixing the problem. Lightening up the policies perhaps another. i don't know what needs fixing but in my humble opinion it's broken and something needs to be done to save this site - freshwater and saltwater. I would love to care. I really would. My plea to those that work hard to make this site go - please lighten up - let people in and let them have full access to everything. This site is worth saving.

Again respectfully.

In my experience, OVAS has been having trouble with this website...this forum for a very long time.  The people who have been coming here in the last few years are not all looking for the sense of community and sharing within the aquarium hobby.  They are not really wanting to stick around and learn and not willing to help out.  They want everything cheep, free and specifically catered to what they want.  Nobody seems to want to do anything in the club unless it caters to their niche of the hobby and I'm sorry but (here's where you all hate me) saltwater people are the worst at this!!  I've said it over and over again.  

The rules that are in place now are there because there were enough jerks in the years before who were boldly breaking the rules then were very agressive confrontational and foul mouthed to anyone who tried to enforce any codes of conduct or basic rules.  There were those who didn't hesitate to tell someone off on the forums for everyone to read if their opinion wasn't agreed with and others who went out of their way to make others look bad.  This website was a very unfriendly place to visit and therefore caused so much trouble that we almost lost the club due to so many people quitting the exec.

Then there are the users and abusers who were running rampant in the classifieds.  How many people are involved in the other group who are ONLY there to make money from it's patrons and not contributing in the slightest to the organizations or the group?  How would you feel if you knew that there was a guy who didn't want to help with the financial upkeep of the organization but wanted unlimited access to everyone involved to use that access SOLELY for making money and saving on advertising?  Those people are not welcome on OVAS yet they just kept coming in waves.

So, here we are now.  People couldn't be trusted to act civilly and follow the easy going set of rules so we implemented a more strict set of rules and closed the classifieds to everyone unless they contributed to the club.  This is what we get when too many people can't seem to act civilly.  Not only that, it was not fair for those serving on the exec who took an incredible amount of abuse...VOLUNTEERS had to take the abuse.  If you want things back to the way they were before the strict rules were implemented and before the classifieds were locked down, the membership fees are going to up significantly because we'll have to HIRE a team of moderators to deal with all the nasty stuff that will come up...even then we might have trouble keeping staff if they're verbally abused the way some of the past exec was.  You guys are all sheltered from it.  You start these threads thinking we're all a bunch of power mongers, jerks, etc.  We're not.  

Sometimes I think these posts are started purposely to shine a negative light on OVAS to make the other group look so much better.  I truly hope this is not the case because THAT embodies this club's issues.

If you want a better OVAS experience, stop criticizing and complaining on a website.  Get involved.

Maybe the club would be better off if all we had was a facebook page.

Sandy

#61
I agree with delslo I too was a member of KWAS before I moved here and the classifieds are free for everyone. Some people that are in the hobby would prefer to deal with other hobbyist here, but some of us due to layoffs, and other reason can't afford the memberships. Some years you can but some years you can't. We then shouldn't be penalized for our financial situation. I would love to deal with other peole on this forum buying, selling, giving away and trading. I feel that by giving everyone that opportunity traffic would increase. When I worked at a LFS here I told all my customers to check out this site for some great deals.
It is also a great way to meet other people that are in the hobby possibly make some new friends. I know I would feel more comfortable coming to meeting etc and get more involved in the club if I knew some people.

bandit

So that some it up, I guess its our fault for trying to make things better. Seems the MODS aren't willing to listen to our plea's.

It sad to say but I dont see myself here much longer.

AND IN NO WAY WAS THIS POST STARTED TO MAKE THE OTHER GUYS LOOK GOOD, I WAS ONLY MADE AWARE OF THEM BECAUSE OF OVAS'S SHORTCOMINGS. I AM ACTUALLY OFFENDED >:(


This was started to try and see if we could do something to help and get idea's from other members to save this ONCE great club. Unfortunately all it did was get defensive comments and finger pointers.

THIS WILL BE MY LAST ATTEMPT TO BE HEARD, PLEASE LISTEN


Darth

I have said this before and say it again the problem here is ovas is not a forum, the forum is a subsidiary of the club, and the club being mostly freshwater hobbyist, which I get I know the club has tried to get more saltwater people to the meetings and what not, and to become members. What I can say for me, is I don't attend the meetings, I don't go to the auctions and what not as time does not permit, and in all honesty I am just not a social person. So that being said I don't see the need to pay for a membership to something I am only go to use 10% of, I come here ONLY for the forum, I come here to see the sponsors sales and stock and to converse electronically (again not a social person) the places I shop at don't offer an ovas discount, I used to post in the classifieds, I am a member now because it was gifted to me, but when I sell stuff I don't use the classifieds here on principle. I have heard over and over how the saltwater people ruined the classifieds which then you cut off to non-members, so that translates that there are very few saltwater members? Or perhaps the saltwater people were the ones that  the classifieds strive, and cutting  them off cut the supply and demand down as well? Perhaps there should be 2 levels of "membership" one for forum only and one card carrying member. I understand membership has privileges, but if none of those privileges benefit me, then they are not privileges, they become a hindrance . When I go to the store to buy bread I don't want to be told I can only have bread if I buy butter as well. I was waiting for this thread to become about the classifieds again, and again have the saltwater hobbyist blamed for it. Perhaps if there were more saltwater people on the board, this may be different, but since you have to be voted in, in a panel of all freshwater people I am sure this would not happen. Just my 2 cents. I used to come here everyday and this forum would be thriving, now its a dying place, and I wonder is it the saltwater people that are "breaking the rules" thats killing it, or is the freshwater people that are too oversensitive and complaining and trying to push the salties out as it has been stated before that "perhaps the salt people need their own forurum As I said there are a ton of forums out there, it was nice to have a local one, but it seems the club would rather us (saltwater) go somewhere else then listen with an open mind, instead of "it was voted and decided it was best for the club" well the way I see it, the participation in this "forum" has died, so I would tend to disagree  with what was "voted" that its best for the club

daworldisblack

#64
Been following this thread and I think the whole Saltwater Vs. Freshwater discussion isn't what the OP intended. I think the main thing is that the whole debate on classifieds is back. There was a whole discussion last year on it as well and the response then was that we should give it a shot. It looks like from this thread the general consensus is that it isn't working. Not just for salties or freshies - in general it isn' working as it was intended. I think the specific external saltwater resources were mentioned to help with that opinion and also have it be relavant to the OP's concern so again the whole Freshies and Salties thing is not what was intended.

Having said that, I have noticed a sharp decline in the number of posts in the classifieds in general. As someone else mentioned, one used to be able to scroll through pages of them but that could also be due to how long the ad stays on before it expires. Perhaps the duration is shorter now. However it could also due to a lack of online users and activity. I have also talked to newbies who show up, 'get told off 'and they leave with their tails between their legs, feeling sad and rejected and slightly scornful at the perceived exclusivity. When I first started, I was ecstatic that such a club existed! I was really into killifishes then and so I posted a LF and also a forum post. I got responses via both methods. I also got equipment of the classifieds that other users had for sale and I was very encouraged to interact with the other members and participate. Now, if it were now, I'd have not been able to post the LF ad. I'd also be told that I can't post a thread that is of a LF nature and there isn't much on sale from other members to boot.

I am a member of many other forums and all these forums have classifieds open to all. I understand some of the issues behind why the classifieds were closed - its sad that volunteers have to deal with bull from randoms. However, there are tools available to help with moderation that members can help with. Voting? Reporting? Temporary Bans etc. There are many successful forums out there that do just fine so there must be something that we're not looking at? I love this forum and I love the community and its LOCAL thats why I would like to see this succeed and I strongly believe the classifieds limitation is perhaps something we need to take a second look at.
Born-again Aquatic Hobbyist with interest in planted nano tanks and Killifish!

Darth

while  I agree it wasn't supposed to be sw vs fw, but somehow it always creeps its ugly head, and it always leads to it being sw posters being the reason it was closed off

daworldisblack

I wonder what a person who does both feels like.. does one reject the other side reading this post? They go all schizophrenic ? Lol.. I think the OP's post was a legit innocent one so lets keep that ugly head from rearing itself. This is something that affects all members.. fresh or salt.
Born-again Aquatic Hobbyist with interest in planted nano tanks and Killifish!

76brian

I dunno about the fresh vs salt debate, and I'm a pretty new member who's only attended one event... but, from my perspective the club has some issues to work out before I will want to really be involved. I have an opinion though, of course :)

In my experience with online marketing, the LAST thing you want to do is drive visitors away from your site. Yet, that's exactly what you're doing when you say: "Classifieds are for members only. If you don't like it, go post for free on Kijiji". If you think that's going to make people want to stick around and participate in the forum or the club, you're wrong.

What incentive does a newbie have to stick around here if he can't post a "Wanted" ad, or even reply to a "For Sale" ad? If he buys something from a member of this site, he's more likely to stick around and get his info from our members and become a member himself. If he's driven off to Kijiji to do his shopping, it's much less likely.

Look at it from a sellers perspective too. I can tell you 100% if I'm selling something, I'll post it on Kijiji first. Why? Because people don't have to pay a fee to reply to my ad over there. What incentive do I have to post here if my audience is going to be limited?

Very few people are going to pay for a membership just to post/reply to classifieds. Sure there might be some who do, but do you really want those members anyways? Sure, your numbers go up... but wouldn't you rather have quality members who participate in the forum and club events, as opposed to just being in it for buying and selling?

Closing the classifieds has taken all the focus away from the other benefits of being an OVAS member. I think having them open would do more good for the club than having them closed. After all, there are tons of reasons to join OVAS besides the classifieds, and that's where the focus should be.

Stussi613

Folks,

I keep reading comments about the "mods" not replying to this thread.  I'd like to clarify that the mods aren't responsible for any of the changes to the classifieds, nor do they set direction for the club.  They are a team of volunteers that work to ensure people are following the rules set out by the executive (from various years, not just this year).  I think some users might be using mods instead of execs.  The execs are meeting tonight and I intend to bring this thread up for discussion.  We are reading the thread and the opinions being expressed, and commenting to some degree.  I'm not saying that we will consider re-opening the classifieds, so please don't jump to that conclusion.

With that being said, the issues that Fishnut is referring to were the reason for closing the classifieds.  I wasn't part of that decision, but I support it.  In reading all of the deleted threads and warnings in the archives the fact is that most of the perpetrators were salty's and most of them were members with high post counts - and all of them with multiple warnings about bumping ads and reposting items with slightly different specifications.  Allot of them were verbally abusive to the mods and it's all documented.  Does this mean that as a whole the salty community were the ones causing all the issues?  No.  But it's a valid point.

As Fishnut eluded to, and I was talking about in my last post, the fact that group buys are happening and people are selling frags on the Aylmer Salty's group doesn't surprise me.  It is a dedicated group to the salty community and it's activities are hosted and paid for by Facebook.  It's not a club like OVAS, its main focus is to provide a format for people to share information and purchase items on a medium that has become intrinsic in daily society.  OVAS has made some big changes to the monthly meeting by offering up swap tables with no auction costs and has reached out to the salty community to bring frags to the meetings.  There has been some success, but for the most part salty's don't attend the meetings.  We've brought in big name speakers to try to entice more salty activity in the club.  All of this has had moderate success, but we will continue to strive to openly welcome any and all local people to come out to club meetings and events.  The fact that AquaMania next month has salty content, by way of speakers, and an open inviation for people to come out and sell their items on the Saturday and in the auction shouldn't go unnoticed.  Remember, OVAS is taking on expense to provide this event to members, and non-members alike, FREE OF CHARGE.  The money to support this event is coming from membership purchases, sponsorship revenue and additional sponsor activity from some big name players in the aquarium trade specifically for AquaMania.

Maybe it's just me, and I only speak for myself, but I would think that if we focused on the positive things OVAS provides to the community, rather than just griping about not being able to post in the classifieds, this place would be better for everyone.

Stuart
OVAS Librarian and Head of the Moderation team
I haz reef tanks.

daworldisblack

Quote from: 76brian on February 11, 2013, 04:36:35 PM
Look at it from a sellers perspective too. I can tell you 100% if I'm selling something, I'll post it on Kijiji first. Why? Because people don't have to pay a fee to reply to my ad over there. What incentive do I have to post here if my audience is going to be limited?

Actually I believe non members can respond to ads, just not post one:

"The OVAS Classified boards are provided as a service to OVAS Club member users. All other forum users are able to view and respond to an ad but cannot post."

However your point on reaching a limited number of people is a legit concern.
Born-again Aquatic Hobbyist with interest in planted nano tanks and Killifish!

Cheebs

I don't like how these posts, that are often not intended to, blow up into some big thing, become a place where everyone dumps every single concern they have, and are sometimes rude about it.

I also don't like how sometimes when valid points are brought up, they are lumped together with the crappy ones.

I've only been a member for 6 years or so, but never do I recall a crazy "Wild West" period with jackasses running the show and people getting told off left right and center by rude intruders. I have seen some true jerks come and go, don't get me wrong. I'm sure a good part of it is that the moderatos take care of it promptly, but up until a little while ago, I was checking ovas several times a day, all day and night. In any case, I am not saying this to undermine any moderators, because over the years I've truly been satisfied with how the forum runs and looks.

I used to be so, so excited to check the forums for new posts and fun stuff. I still am. But CLEARLY there is a disconnect between the chair members and the club members (and/or forum users). Never have I seen such discontent displayed on this forum. I have tried to remain "on the fence" about certain issues, but I do pipe up and let my opinion be known when I can.

Here we have a mixture of new and old members speaking up. Some are being too harsh. However, this is the inteenet. Intent, inflection and emotion are difficult to convey. It can be easy for someone to sit down in a huff, mash some rude words into the keyboard, and post it. I've done it before.

I want it to be like it was years ago, when everyone was happy, and the most active thread wasn't people being upset about something.

76brian

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 11, 2013, 04:42:55 PMI would think that if we focused on the positive things OVAS provides to the community, rather than just griping about not being able to post in the classifieds, this place would be better for everyone.

I agree, but there would be no griping if it was never changed. It would not be an issue at all. The club brought it on themselves, IMO.

What did they expect?

"Yeah, so we're going to do this thing that people will complain about, and then tell them not to complain, and everything will be fine"

Seems pretty short sighted to me.

Stussi613

Quote from: 76brian on February 11, 2013, 05:01:32 PM
I agree, but there would be no griping if it was never changed. It would not be an issue at all. The club brought it on themselves, IMO.

What did they expect?

"Yeah, so we're going to do this thing that people will complain about, and then tell them not to complain, and everything will be fine"

Seems pretty short sighted to me.

Like I said, I wasn't a part of the decision...but to be honest I'd prefer not to go back to the mods having to spend 4+ hours a day each dealing with the constant disregard to the classifieds rules. 

The alternative would have been to not moderate the classifieds and the complaint threads would be "I posted an item 2 hours ago in the classifieds and it's already on page 9".

Stuart
I haz reef tanks.

Fishnut

Quote from: Darth on February 11, 2013, 02:54:21 PM
Perhaps if there were more saltwater people on the board, this may be different, but since you have to be voted in, in a panel of all freshwater people I am sure this would not happen. Just my 2 cents.

Actually, for the last few years, the club has had no competition for positions and some people stepped up at the last minute to serve on the exec committee because nobody else would.

As I said before, if you want a better OVAS experience, come out from behind your computer and get involved.  OVAS is not about buying and selling stuff.  It's about people who share fish keeping info and successes.

Darth

honestly I don't want a better OVAS I want a better OVAS forum which I can do from behind my computer

Feivel

#75
There used to be a lot of hours spent there, reading, learning, helping, growing..... They cut out all the means us salties were using to keep in touch, cause we would not go to the meeting (wich they claim is what the club is about) and did everything to push us away. they were upset with salty chat, they remodeled the site and removed it,Said there was a bug and would look into it, they had issues with the classifieds, they modified rules, then later after closed it down.When they closed the classifieds section the last time, i remember a poll voted on the members side and im pretty sure a strong % of voters wanted it to stay open, lots  of paid members some non members. And still the exec decided against opening the classifieds,

No offence, but you guys are digging your own grave. I used to love and look forwards to coming to OVAS and helping other have success with their reef tanks.... Some are upset at the fact that internet group orders have hurt the local saltwater economy, Others are happy at the savings that some people with no overhead can pass-on. I on the other hand return the favor, ask anyone who has come to my place for a frag, how much more have you left with? Just to help others out. I like to share and promote good things.  

Other than the shear beauty of the reef, i would throw in the towel and sell off everything and not have anything to do with reefing anymore because of all this turmoil, but it would not be fair to my pets to be tossed away like that because a few people are upset with me and dont want my precence in their stores. Go do your research and return when you know what your looking for..... great advice for a noob..... THATS why i helped build Aylmer Salty's HELP forum. To inform people of what they want before they go get it. help them learn from the noob curve, help them save $ so they dont get discouraged, in the long run its better for everyone in the reefing community to have as many SUCCESFULL hobbiests no matter the means .....


fish

Quote from: Fishnut on February 11, 2013, 10:51:19 AM
You start these threads thinking we're all a bunch of power mongers, jerks, etc.  We're not.  

Sometimes I think these posts are started purposely to shine a negative light on OVAS to make the other group look so much better.  I truly hope this is not the case because THAT embodies this club's issues.

If you want a better OVAS experience, stop criticizing and complaining on a website.  Get involved.


I did not mean to criticize. I think I was respectful and only meant to offer an impartial view as a potential community member as I am on other reef sites. I see perhaps my thoughts are not welcome and so I will go back to not participating I guess.

delslo

Quote from: Fishnut on February 11, 2013, 05:48:52 PM
Actually, for the last few years, the club has had no competition for positions and some people stepped up at the last minute to serve on the exec committee because nobody else would.

As I said before, if you want a better OVAS experience, come out from behind your computer and get involved.  OVAS is not about buying and selling stuff.  It's about people who share fish keeping info and successes.

You are absolutely correct, people should come out and participate in the meetings, and should absolutely help out at the events, unfortunately not everyone's' schedule works with the OVAS schedule, I for example work 6 days a week and as much as I love the community I don't have the time to come out to the meetings or get involved more than the key strokes I perform daily.

Next, you are correct OVAS is not a place to buy and sell things it is a club who's goal is to educate, inform, assist, and spread the love of fish keeping that we all share. That said saving money is a much stronger incentive to check the forums daily than what did so and so say today. In addition the classifieds brings in new members, I am one of them.
I am bothered by the whole the salty's are to blame for the classifieds being taken away, although there may be some merit to the statement the freshy's aren't innocent either. In addition this thread originally began with a statement about the decreasing number of posts in the saltwater forum. Over the past few days there has been far more interest in this thread than any other. Perhaps we have lost sight of the original purpose of this thread, and instead should redirect some of our energy elsewhere.

Now I am both a freshy and a salty. I started with an artificial tank, then went to a planted, then to a high tech planted, moved to Ottawa and said I don't know much about salt so I started a tank and have been a salty for the past 2 years. I take great offence to the divide that people are creating, and I have to unfortunately perpetuate it to get my point across. We all enjoy the challenge of fish keeping, we all can contribute on both sides of the forum, so get over yourself, even if I didn't know salty stuff I could still contribute with people looking for plumbing stuff, or giving an opinion on the rock scape, or on the placement of plants in a freshy tank. We are all partly to blame for the decrease in activity.

I honestly believe that the activity of this thread has showed us all a few things:
1. Everything is not perfect in paradise
2. Some things need to change
3. We all have the time to post more often (this thread has exploded)
4. The divide between freshy's and salty's (hate those terms) has to go
5. OVAS is far from dead, whether or not we are willing to admit it we all care greatly about what happens to the site or we wouldn't have spent the time to read 4 big pages of postings to be able to relevantly respond to the topic



Stussi613

I've unlocked the thread. The exec has decided to continue leaving the classifieds closed for the rest of the season for reasons previously communicated in multiple threads.

OVAS also continues to welcome the salty society and encourages all members, forum and club, to come out to meetings and generally contribute to keeping OVAS a great resource for local fish keeping.

Stuart
I haz reef tanks.

Fishnut

#79
For the record, the SW people have never been singled out as the sole culprits.  There have been a few FW people as well.  There are just far more SW people who have been awful than the FW...as in I lost count of the SW jerks a long time ago, compared to the FW jerks who I could probably count on one hand.  Not to stir up more debate, but look at this thread as an example...SW related.

I don't get it!!!

So...those who are angry about the classifieds...who's going to step up to the plate and moderate it?  You'll have fun dealing with the complaints and taking the verbal abuse when you do anything that prevents malicious posters from ruining things.  You'll get to spend hours at it every day, including during the work day...on your breaks and lunch, before work, after work and after dinner because that's how much work it will take to keep up with all the malicious posters who are guaranteed to come out of the woodwork in droves.  Your spouse will need to stop asking to spend time with you, your kids will need to see you less and your personal life will have to be less of a priority because you'll need to moderate more and more as the malicious posters abuse your fellow moderators and they quit.  Oh yeah...I forgot to mention...this is a non-paid position.

Any takers?


groupie02

I totally get it. The OP asked questions related to the SW community. People provided answers. It's pretty simple.
It had to be SW.


Feivel

Is it really about the moderation of the classifieds?  OVAS Is a great RESOURCE of information, what happened to the support side of it? All your exp. reefers quit on you and the ones that are left end up talking between themselves  and totally ignore the topic on hand, then they go on about how their tanks are going between themselves. Not just one or two posts but most of them, and usually the same few that return comments to each other ignoring the question on hand. Someone else posts a pertinant answer to the question in the OP (2 pages later) then they realise OH SNAP! this isn't about ME, its about YOU!!! The quality of OVAS is not there. The new members dont feel welcome, The standard folk dont necesarily stay long at those biker style bars. Im sure there great people still....

I showed up at the very tail of all the calamity of the classifieds and most of the abuse from the members. i read about most of it. I know some of the ones responsible, do i know all the details and will I ever know? NO I wont. But i do know is that people like me are paying for it.... well maybee not next year, but i have been a paid member suporting and helping ovas grow for 3 years. I have been to a few meetings to help at first, meet the people in the community, put names to faces, create bond and relationships, and then afterwards to help promote the salty side. The posts on OVAS were diminishing and other self help forums were created. Some local sponsors were asked to join our forum but they refused, Why would a LFS refuse FREE promotions? Why would they not suport the local community? Why would they be upset then at other local competition that picked up on the mass interest of people in a group looking for items???? Beyond me. Oh look, 3 new LOCAL stores offering saltwater stock, Oh look,MTL LFS is doing free delivery on orders over 150$ (250$ in ottawa) And they have some stock ottawa DREAMS of.... There more and more competition the more and more we prgress because of the COSTS of running and MAINTAINING a Reef Tank. You think i want to spend 80-120$ on a brain when I can get the SAME ONE for 35$ elsewhere? Im also in it for ME, and my wallet in the long run .... ANYWAYS .....

Sorry i missed the last meeting, was kinda very busy at Christmas, I will make an effort to make it to the giant auction this year. I will have a few frags to offer.

Greatwhite

Wow, we're on to page 5.... You guys need to stop feeding the trolls.  :)  For those who are not aware of what a troll is, in forum terms;  A forum troll is someone who posts completely off topic and/or inflammatory comments in a forum with the hopes of getting an emotional response.

The OP innocently asked why the classifieds were slow because his frags were not selling as fast as they used to.  The answer, no one here is buying anything right now... Some advice was given on how to sell stuff better and branch out to hit a wider audience...  Move on... right?

NOPE. 

The discussion has degraded to bashing the execs and mods for causing the site to die.  The classifieds system was bashed...  The "ease of logging into the system" was bashed...  And then this turned into a salt vs fresh battle and OVAS vs Facebook - and it's salties' fault because the OP asked a salt related question....?

I don't blame Stussi for locking the thread, to be honest.  I would have locked it long before page 5 - and I wouldn't have unlocked it (although that would have started a whole new discussion, I'm sure).  He DID mention that the execs were meeting last night, they had read all the complaints and were going to talk about them.  One would think that would have stopped the griping, but no.

Honestly, I have full faith in the execs and their ability to run the site.  It is not THEM responsible for its success, it's US.  They are all volunteers with their own jobs and lives and really don't need to be called upon to defuse one or two individuals who insist on blowing things out of proportion.

They have said that moderating the classifieds was becoming a full time job (unpaid) because people were misusing the system.  So the decision was made to restrict posting ability to paid members.  That's a reasonable explanation to me.  Fishnut has asked (not sure how seriously?) who would be willing to step up to moderate the classifieds, and prevent malicious posters, etc.  I'd recommend any one of the people who kept this thread alive and pushed it to 5 pages by trying to start a fresh vs salt war.  They seem to not have anything better to do with their day.

It's fine to complain about things every now and then, but it is much better to SUGGEST IMPROVEMENTS than complain about shortcomings.  And then, once something has been mentioned - move on.  There's no need to keep repeating the same complaint, expecting an immediate answer.  There is probably not any one person who CAN answer for the entire group, and if there was, that person is probably working all day and not reading the thread.

az

#83
I have few recommendations;

-let non members have minimum 5 free classified postings a year, general hobbyists do not need to sell stuff more often than that in a year.

-let basement/home business sw or fw be a sponsor as long they are a registered business from around here.

-organize more frequent workshops, meets etc, you dont need big guys, just hearing basics from everyday hobbyists help as we forget stuff all the time. you cant get discouraged if attendance was bad one time, you have to keep doing it.

-if you have someone looking to volunteer let him, if one exec holds two positions you would barely keep up, there will be no progress.

-add a clause in exec contract that when they get elected they need to hold the post for the duration, if its health reason sure, if not its unfair that you leave in the middle beacuse you didnt get along with someone or you got busy etc.


little changes nothing big or drastic needed.
AQUA VALLEY    
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Fishnut

I think you have the gist of it Feivel.  To be honest, I don't have a clue about how we can guide the club back to the days where people are less "me me me" and more about sharing and helping.  I joined OVAS to meet people who I can share my hobby with and who are fun to talk to about it.  As you said, the seasoned experienced members are getting sick of the stuff that goes on in this website and stop coming back.  I have seen too many experienced hobbyists ignored or shut down because some hot headed noob or semi-noob who hides behind a computer, thinks he knows it all.  Really...if you've been keeping fish for 20+ years, you're just going to stop helping people and go back to enjoying your hobby with those who are fun to talk to.

This exit of long time hobbyists has left the club with a large void.  New people come to the club and are welcomed with "me me me' or some other egotistical junk...or their questions are answered incorrectly by a fellow hobbyist who has it all wrong but thinks they know it all.

This whole forum is just holding the club back in so many ways.  We talked about it at the exec meeting last night.  It's so unbelievably frustrating.  

Perhaps it's time to get rid of the entire forum?  

We have a Facebook page.  We could just have that and a website to relay information about club activities.  At least we would know what each other's real names were when we do go to meetings and other events.

Greatwhite

Quote from: az on February 12, 2013, 10:36:44 AM
I have few recommendations;

-let non members have minimum 5 free classified postings a year, general hobbyists do not need to sell stuff more often than that in a year.

-let basement/home business sw or fw be a sponsor as long they are a registered business from around here, otherwise you are doing what babelfish with help of hiswife/Pat/Trina then exec did to us 7 years ago when we wanted tobe sponsors, brought back memories.

-organize more frequent workshops, meets etc, you dont need big guys, just hearing basics from everyday hobbyists help as we forget stuff all the time. you cant get discouraged if attendance was bad one time, you have to keep doing it.

-if you have someone looking to volunteer let him, if one exec holds two positions you would barely keep up, there will be no progress.

-add a clause in exec contract that when they get elected they need to hold the post for the duration, if its health reason sure, if not its unfair that you leave in the middle beacuse you didnt get along with someone or you got busy etc.


little changes nothing big or drastic needed.

Well played, sir. :)

I'd also suggest (without knowing how the classified ACTUALLY work) a Post Approval step before the post is actually displayed. 

I know other classifieds systems have a delay from the time you submit the ad to the time it's visible so that *someone* can quickly preview the ad and approve it.  This would surely cut down on duplicate posts and it probably takes less time to approve an ad than to remove lots of dupes. 

Note; Even with classifieds restricted to just members, I still see duplicate posts...

Fishnut

Quote from: az on February 12, 2013, 10:36:44 AM
I have few recommendations;

-let non members have minimum 5 free classified postings a year, general hobbyists do not need to sell stuff more often than that in a year.

That's a good idea but I have a feeling our software would require someone to manually keep track of how many ads everyone has posted and delete the excess ads.  We won't subject anyone to that amount of work as a volunteer.  I'll as our webmistress if there's an automatic function that prevents more than 5 ads per non-member.

Quote from: az on February 12, 2013, 10:36:44 AM

-let basement/home business sw or fw be a sponsor as long they are a registered business from around here, otherwise you are doing what babelfish with help of hiswife/Pat/Trina then exec did to us 7 years ago when we wanted tobe sponsors, brought back memories.


We actually discussed this last night and have voted in new sponsor criteria.  Someone will get to posting it soon and you'll get a PM about it.  I think you'll like what we did!

Quote from: az on February 12, 2013, 10:36:44 AM

-organize more frequent workshops, meets etc, you dont need big guys, just hearing basics from everyday hobbyists help as we forget stuff all the time. you cant get discouraged if attendance was bad one time, you have to keep doing it.


We don't have the time to do it as an exec and we lack the volunteers.  These have also been poorly attended for quite a long time.  I'm open to it but it needs to be tweaked.

Quote from: az on February 12, 2013, 10:36:44 AM
-if you have someone looking to volunteer let him, if one exec holds two positions you would barely keep up, there will be no progress.

-add a clause in exec contract that when they get elected they need to hold the post for the duration, if its health reason sure, if not its unfair that you leave in the middle beacuse you didnt get along with someone or you got busy etc.

Agreed!!  Unfortunately, we just don't have enough people stepping up to volunteer.  As much as I would like to make people stay for the duration of their term, we can't.  It's voluntary.  If people get upset with someone else or they get too busy, they just stop showing up, then quit.  It sucks and I hate it but we make do.

YIPPEEEEE!!!!  Thanks for the constructive, well thought suggestions!!!!

Fishnut

Quote from: Greatwhite on February 12, 2013, 10:46:04 AM
Well played, sir. :)

I'd also suggest (without knowing how the classified ACTUALLY work) a Post Approval step before the post is actually displayed. 

I know other classifieds systems have a delay from the time you submit the ad to the time it's visible so that *someone* can quickly preview the ad and approve it.  This would surely cut down on duplicate posts and it probably takes less time to approve an ad than to remove lots of dupes. 

Note; Even with classifieds restricted to just members, I still see duplicate posts...

Excelent!!  This is also a good suggestion which is worth bringing to the webmistress and mod team.

76brian

Quote from: Fishnut on February 12, 2013, 10:37:30 AMbecause some hot headed noob or semi-noob who hides behind a computer, thinks he knows it all.

...and who is that directed at?

Greatwhite

Quote from: 76brian on February 12, 2013, 11:05:19 AM
...and who is that directed at?

Emotions have run a little high in this thread, with some pretty personal attacks against "the execs"... I'm sure that there wasn't any ONE person this was directed at, just a general comment that may have been written quickly...

That or she's talking about me.  Yes, I am so vane that I think this thread is about me.

JetJumper

Its funny that now you say sign up to be a mod....

I personally have volunteered on MORE then one occation however have always been turned down because I didn't pay into the club.  Thats fine with me if you want to keep it like that... but don't say I didn't try! :)
.: JetJumper's Zone :.

76brian

Quote from: Greatwhite on February 12, 2013, 11:12:12 AM
Emotions have run a little high in this thread, with some pretty personal attacks against "the execs"... I'm sure that there wasn't any ONE person this was directed at, just a general comment that may have been written quickly...

That or she's talking about me.  Yes, I am so vane that I think this thread is about me.

Nothing to do with being vain, I posted admitting I was relatively new, and have not been out to many events, but still offered an opinion. I did not make any personal attacks, just valid points (which were mostly ignored).

Either way, a club exec bashing newbies isn't a good way to convince the newbies to get involved.

Greatwhite

Quote from: 76brian on February 12, 2013, 11:43:49 AM
Nothing to do with being vain, I posted admitting I was relatively new, and have not been out to many events, but still offered an opinion. I did not make any personal attacks, just valid points (which were mostly ignored).

Either way, a club exec bashing newbies isn't a good way to convince the newbies to get involved.

Not sure how/why you think the comment was directed at you, or why you seem to be taking offense to it.  I just read Fishnut's post, and she just said that experienced people seem to have decided to stop being helpful because "hotheaded noobs or semi-noobs think they know it all".  It really doesn't appear to have anything to do with your comments at all - or even anything to do with your post. (it was in response to Feivel's post)

I am saying that *I* am a hotheaded semi-noob who knows it all.  8)

Darth

it could have been directed at anyone, especially myself who admitted I prefer to do things from my PC, its funny because if that was said about the execs I am sure a ban would have been in effect, and I suggested many times, why do meetings have to be held to discuss things a chat room can easily be set up to accommodate those who cannot physically go to meetings, lets move to the 21st century the idea of getting in your car or whatever is getting old, its time to move with the times, unless something needs to be physically set up, or demo'd or whatever there is no need for physical meetings

Cheebs

All drama aside, if you want to keep it fresh and keep the youth interested, the website, social media, etc are the key. The site may be separate from the club or whatever, but it's what's going to make or break it.

delslo

why don't we start having tank setup meetings? Have a spot where someone new is setting up a new tank, people can go over experienced or not to help give suggestions, bring extra stuff to help new people set up their tank properly, plus it would be a good learning experience as one person may know something that you or I don't. Just a thought.

Stussi613

Darth,

With all due respect, this forum is an extension of a club...it's not a standalone entity.

The comments about noobs and people that sit behind their computers wasn't intended to single anyone out, it's just that people seem to be easy to criticize the exec for making decisions based on the mandate of the club when they aren't actively involved in the club.  

I unlocked this thread to give people a chance to voice their concerns, but I'm getting pretty close to locking it again.  These types of gripe sessions aren't going to accomplish anything...and new users are reading them and wondering if they should bother staying here.

We get lots of people who sign up, try to sell something, realize they can't and then stop coming. That's going to happen. But I'm more concerned about members like Brian who sign up, contribute to the forum with some truly new and interesting builds, come out to a meeting, join the club and then feel like they aren't welcome because of threads like this.

Everyone is welcome on OVAS, member or not.  As long as people follow the rules they can post as much, or as little as they want.  Attend meetings, or not.  What we don't want, or need, are quarterly griping sessions about things that aren't going to be changed by this years exec.

We needed to boost membership and we did that - from roughly 50 members last year to over 170 as of yesterday.

We invested personal time and effort to attend events like the Pet Expo, setting up multiple tanks and generating new members and letting some old members know we are still here. We changed the meetings to make it easier for ANYONE to come out and sell items by instituting a swap meet style format with no fees to OVAS for members and non-members. We put together a more social meeting structure with a dinner event for the holiday season meeting in December for those that didn't want to come and listen to a speaker and sit through a PowerPoint.  We are planning a 2 day event with a full line up of speakers and vendors (including some really big ones like SeaChem) that is being provided to everyone free of charge in March.  All this, and more, we've done for OVAS members and non members alike.  I hate to be "one of those" execs...but do you know what we get for all that effort and time volunteering to make OVAS better for everyone?

A thread where people complain about the classifieds being closed by last years exec.

A thread where people question the current exec and the decisions they are making that affect people on the forum.

I used to wonder why people would volunteer for the OVAS exec and serve a single term, or half a term, and then quit. Now I know exactly why they do.

Against my better judgement I'm leaving this thread running, but if it continues the way it has been going I'm going to lock it again.

Stuart
I haz reef tanks.

Fishnut


fish

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 12, 2013, 12:49:22 PM
Darth,

With all due respect, this forum is an extension of a club...it's not a standalone entity.


Stuart

That totally explains it for me. I want a forum to share experiences in. I'm not even remotely interested in being part of a club. Sorry if my comments were off the mark as a result.

Stussi613

Quote from: fish on February 12, 2013, 02:01:32 PM
That totally explains it for me. I want a forum to share experiences in. I'm not even remotely interested in being part of a club. Sorry if my comments were off the mark as a result.

You have a forum to share experiences in, but as a club we can't de-couple the forum into its own entity.  Nobody is saying you have to join the club to use the forum, you just can't post in the classifieds as a non-member and have to abide by the rules you agreed to when you signed up. You are more than welcome at OVAS, as is everyone who follows the rules.
I haz reef tanks.

Greatwhite

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 12, 2013, 02:10:21 PM
You have a forum to share experiences in, but as a club we can't de-couple the forum into its own entity.  Nobody is saying you have to join the club to use the forum, you just can't post in the classifieds as a non-member and have to abide by the rules you agreed to when you signed up. You are more than welcome at OVAS, as is everyone who follows the rules.

In the same token, I am here for the forum to share experience, help people start up to avoid the mistakes that I've made, seek help when needed, and socialize while hiding behind my computer.  I don't have any interest in attending functions and be all "club" ish.

I paid my membership fee to help keep the forum up and running...  I don't even use the classifieds...  *shrug*  :)

Darth

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 12, 2013, 12:49:22 PM
Darth,

With all due respect, this forum is an extension of a club...it's not a standalone entity.


perhaps you misread or misunderstood me, because nowhere did I ever say the forum is a seperate entity, if you read my posts you would see that I have stated over and over that the forum is NOT the club, but a part of it, I have also said I dont have the desire to attend meetings and what not, I would just want access to the forum, you want someone to mod the classifieds I will do it, I don't have a problem with it

Fishnut

Lol...Darth.  Are you sure about that?  It's more than a full time job.  No time for work, not time for family, socializing or anything...maybe you'll get a bathroom break and enough time to eat...maybe.

We're absolutely not opening up the classifieds.  The exec made a decision that we feel benefits the club as a whole...including those who support the decision.  It was discussed at length, voted on and the motion carried.  Please stop asking and suggesting we reverse our decision because the whole exec group is against opening them up...ALL OF US.  It's just not going to happen.

Now lets see how many people jump in to call us a bunch of control freaks, power mongers, etc...  Maybe we can get to page 10  ;D

Darth

Quote from: Fishnut on February 12, 2013, 04:34:35 PM
Lol...Darth.  Are you sure about that?  It's more than a full time job.  No time for work, not time for family, socializing or anything...maybe you'll get a bathroom break and enough time to eat...maybe.

We're absolutely not opening up the classifieds.  The exec made a decision that we feel benefits the club as a whole...including those who support the decision.  It was discussed at length, voted on and the motion carried.  Please stop asking and suggesting we reverse our decision because the whole exec group is against opening them up...ALL OF US.  It's just not going to happen.

Now lets see how many people jump in to call us a bunch of control freaks, power mongers, etc...  Maybe we can get to page 10  ;D
Honestly this is exactly what I suspected the answer to be, thanks so much for proving everyone's point. I personally appreciate you taking the time to prove to me (in my opinion ) why I would NEVER renew my membership, I see no point in supporting a club, when "the Club" asks for solutions and many many are given the response is lets see who calls us power mongers I applaud you well done!!!

Thanks
Steven

JetJumper

Quote from: Darth on February 12, 2013, 05:23:10 PM
Honestly this is exactly what I suspected the answer to be, thanks so much for proving everyone's point. I personally appreciate you taking the time to prove to me (in my opinion ) why I would NEVER renew my membership, I see no point in supporting a club, when "the Club" asks for solutions and many many are given the response is lets see who calls us power mongers I applaud you well done!!!

Thanks
Steven

[facebook]LIKE[/facebook]
.: JetJumper's Zone :.

Darth


bandit

#106
Well put Darth, this was actually a good thread with great ideas and conversation.



I originally started the post to see what we all can do to help out ovas, it was not just a thread on opening the classifieds. Unfortunately there has been many hasty remarks directed towards me. I have sense requested to have my membership refunded as I feel I have been misled to what ovas is about and will not stand for the abuse I incurred via PM from Fishnut.

This will be my last post on ovas, until things change.

Could a moderator or exec send me and address so I can return my ovas card.

I would like to thank all the members, mods and exec who tried to make this a better place and especially Stussi for letting us vent and trying to help.

Fare well.

Sandy

I personally enjoyed reading this thread, I didn't think anyone was bashing the execs. Everyone deserves to voice their opinion. Its called freedom of speech.

sas

This thread has been moderated.
Please can we get back to the positive, constructive ideas that everyone has,
if not the thread will get locked and that benefits no one.
Thank you everyone for your cooperation.
___________________________________________
Keep us honest and true as the horses we ride.


Darth

okay so the question has been asked how do we get more traffic to the site, and the census has been the classifieds is the reason, now obviously thats not gonna happen. The members have chimed in with ideas, but the execs have provided nothing either, have you not discussed whats the best way to make the club thrive, because as much as th forum is only a part of the club, the club would be a lot worse off without it imo. Seems the club has been doing the same thing over and over, giant auction, guest speakers, bbq, blah blah. Perhaps during the meetings while you are discussing the club and "brainstorming" on ways to make it better, instead of the execs are discussing it, why not share some of the ideas with the others here? Perhaps there is a great idea that just needs to be tweaked. Lately it just seems that its the execs against everyone else, and the reason for that is the execs. They don't involve anyone else till the decision is made, you have to understand without members what does the club have some execs who  together once a week/month or whatever and say well we didn't do anything wrong they just didnt like the rules and left, well that is not the best way to think. If this is to be a club it needs to be treated as a club, and perhaps decisions need to be a club thing. Yes the execs still volunteer to take care of these things, and set them in motion, but it just seems lately its this is what we as the powers that be have discussed, like or leave it. And to be honest that doesnt leave a warm fuzzy feeling. So as this thread has turned into a fight (by which the first blow was cast by an  exec) it lost its way. One person suggested advertising in retail, perhaps there is room in the budget to print stickers or fridge magnets that sponsers can hand out to customers, something physical they can take home instead of hey join ovas, and the person is thinking can't wait to go home and put all this new stuff in my tank, and what join who, oh yeah fish. Put a fridge magnet in the bag as a bag stuffer and you increase the chance of that person remembering the site. So again there have been a few ideas, so perhaps the execs that make the decisions on how this club is run can throw some ideas into the hat

ajm1961

Thanks for the input Darth. Appreciate the effort.
Cheers.
SHARE YOUR PASSION FOR THE HOBBY!

Papdul16

My opimion is you should ask all members to vote on the classified section.

Very simple QUESTION : Should  the classified section be open  to everyone ?

I 'm not a paying member of OVAS but I kind of give the club money at the giant Auction as I bring some equipment and fish which they keep 25 % of my sale which I don't have a problem with.   I'm basically giving my stuff away at the auction as we all know how cheap some of the stuff goes for especially at the end.  I could get a lot more in a private sales but this is my weird way of SUPPORTING the club.


7 tanks running of African cichlids

Greatwhite

Quote from: Darth on February 13, 2013, 07:49:18 AM
One person suggested advertising in retail, perhaps there is room in the budget to print stickers or fridge magnets that sponsers can hand out to customers, something physical they can take home instead of hey join ovas, and the person is thinking can't wait to go home and put all this new stuff in my tank, and what join who, oh yeah fish. Put a fridge magnet in the bag as a bag stuffer and you increase the chance of that person remembering the site.

Fridge magnets, or see about getting custom printed stick-on thermometers... You know - for aquariums...?  Yeah, I know they don't really work "great", but it's something aquarium related and new people to the hobby wouldn't know any better. ;)  Then it's RIGHT THERE while they are working on their aquarium.

Stussi613

I haz reef tanks.

Darth

what about partnering with some of the sponsors for like a gift card give away or gift certificate maybe like win a $25 gift card or a free membership for details visit the forum www.ovas.ca. Since the stores say they are seeing a lot of NEW customers, why not ask them to offer some wall space to hang a sign? It wouldn't cost them anything, but it may give the shop owners a chance to talk about ovas, and even if people only come once here its  a seed, and they may come back, offer a prize, so they have to come here to register (I don't even know how that would work) but then they also have to come back to see if they won. Odds are the average person will look around the forum see its benefits, and may decide to stay. Unfortunately everyone wants something for nothing, but even if 1 person joins, its one more then before. Again just a suggestion, I really don't want to give up on this place because I have had learned so much and met so many great people, and as much as I don't agree with all that has transpired here as of late, but I am willing to try and make it better  ;D

Stussi613

Our sponsors actually do a great job of promoting OVAS, we've asked about putting signs up, but wall space can be hard to get at corporate stores. Most of our sponsors have our newsletter, and Az actually bought and gave away 5 memberships this season.

We actually give out prizes at every meeting. You don't have to be a member to attend your first few meetings, this year some of the non members have won some pretty great prizes...like a Fluval CO2 system.

I like the idea of the gift cards, but I think it could be difficult for the sponsors to administer.  We have to be cognizant that their primary goal is to service customers and not promote OVAS. I could be wrong, but that's my initial impression.

I'm glad I left this thread open and we're getting some constructive suggestions.  We genuinely want to hear from the people that use this club, members and non-members alike. 
I haz reef tanks.

Greatwhite

Since we're spitballin'...  In regards to memberships & fees...  Someone mentioned previously (in this thread?) that other forums have a donation based membership, and the donation you make may get you an item from a magnet up to a t shirt or something...

I had a thought that is simpler than that, and would probably work just fine with the forum system with no config changes...

What about 3 levels of membership?

Level 1 - Free, has access to forum only, no classifieds
Level 2 - $10, has access to forum and classifieds
Level 3 - $20, has access to forum and classifieds, and gets the OVAS card that entitles them to discounts at some sponsors and free admission to events.

Yes, the classifieds are still locked to members only... $10 is somewhere around 1/2 the cost of what people seem unwilling to pay to have access to the classifieds...  I think that part of the reason people don't want to pay is that they are not interested in going to the events, so don't really want to be part of the "club" as a whole...  $10 goes toward paying for the hosting of the forum and whatever costs are involved in that.


76brian

As for ideas to promote the club, does OVAS sponsor a tank anywhere in a public place?

I was thinking if we rounded up enough equipment to donate a nice setup to say, CHEO, for example... or some other place that would get a lot of attention from kids and families, it would draw interest in the hobby and good exposure for the club.

Members would have to volunteer to maintain it of course, but I'm pretty sure there's no lack of love for aquatics around here.

There could be a nice plaque or something beside it:

"Donated and Maintained by the Ottawa Valley Aquarium Society
www.ovas.ca"

I've never seen mention of it on here, but it seems like an obvious way to promote the hobby and the club.

Darth

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 13, 2013, 11:15:40 AM
Our sponsors actually do a great job of promoting OVAS, we've asked about putting signs up, but wall space can be hard to get at corporate stores. Most of our sponsors have our newsletter, and Az actually bought and gave away 5 memberships this season.

We actually give out prizes at every meeting. You don't have to be a member to attend your first few meetings, this year some of the non members have won some pretty great prizes...like a Fluval CO2 system.

I like the idea of the gift cards, but I think it could be difficult for the sponsors to administer.  We have to be cognizant that their primary goal is to service customers and not promote OVAS. I could be wrong, but that's my initial impression.

I'm glad I left this thread open and we're getting some constructive suggestions.  We genuinely want to hear from the people that use this club, members and non-members alike. 
I was one of the people that were given a membership, so as not to slap anyone in the face and seem ungrateful I am trying =) I know sponsors do a lot for the club, but it seems that they are our best resource for getting to people, we can also put up "ads" on usedottawa, get some info about the club and put it up, I have seen the giant auction ads on there before, but maybe something titled "new to the aquarium life" something to tell everyone what this place is about, I get you guys have prizes at the meetings, but if others that don't know about ovas don't know about the meetings, then its kind of lost. I know counterspace and wall space in retail is very valuable but I would like to see others inputs, greatwhite had suggested some things, I have also mentioned a membership for forum only so a tiered membership, as I stated the store I shop in does not offer a discount (but the sales are always great) and I do not have time to go meetings as my personal life does not permit (plus my night vision is bad so I prefer not to drive at night) but so far and I know its early in the day, but only myself and one other person have attempted at suggestions, we need to get past opening up the classifieds, as this has been a constant battle, that always ends up the same way (maybe there is something to be said about that ) but at least for now it's not going to happen. I know it is a sore spot for many, but we need to think of the classifieds as non-existent for the time being, and figure out ways to bring  the awareness to ovas. I don't know what the budget is like if there is any money at all for "advertising" but maybe get some Pamphlets printed with info on the club. I  believe if they have this, perhaps Petsmart can have them in the fish dept explain its a non-profit org and you just want to leave handouts, talk to the manager there, I know when I used to be petcare manager in emerald plaza I would tell people about the site, if I had a handout outlining what the is  club is it would have been better. These big corp stores leave a lot of empowerment to the gen management team for things like this. We are not taking business away, if anything it can help grow their business as well. Someone that is more educated in the aquarium hobby will have more long term success, and in turn can turn into thousands of dollars over a lifetime for a store, so there is def a symbiotic relationship we can share. So Please everyone can we TRY and put this classified issue aside, and perhaps come together and see what we can do otherwise? I mean look at it this way, a lot of us assume its the closing of the classifieds that have caused lack of flow to here right, well lets exhaust all other opportunities, and if nothing has changed then we have solid statistics that closing the classifieds was the reason. Right now there are too many other variables involved, and we get back the same results that membership has risen, so maybe the classifieds have nothing to do with it, but obviously, we all have a lot of passion for this site, so lets take all that energy good and bad, and focus it on ways  to do something different again keeping in mind the classified debate is a dead horse, so lets find life somewhere else, I know there are a lot of creative minds out there so lets get cracking and get this club spawning again!!

Darth

Quote from: 76brian on February 13, 2013, 11:28:32 AM
As for ideas to promote the club, does OVAS sponsor a tank anywhere in a public place?

I was thinking if we rounded up enough equipment to donate a nice setup to say, CHEO, for example... or some other place that would get a lot of attention from kids and families, it would draw interest in the hobby and good exposure for the club.

Members would have to volunteer to maintain it of course, but I'm pretty sure there's no lack of love for aquatics around here.

There could be a nice plaque or something beside it:

"Donated and Maintained by the Ottawa Valley Aquarium Society
www.ovas.ca"

I've never seen mention of it on here, but it seems like an obvious way to promote the hobby and the club.

that's an awesome idea !! Nice

bergenm

#122
I am really not sure why we are looking at ways to promote the club, when new visitors are just being greeted with this mess...

We have new members quitting, old members quitting, people getting modded all over the place, threads frozen, the execs and the bulk of the members have completely different visions of what the club should be, and no one can agree if the club drives the forum, the forum drives the club, or they are both equal...

Definitely not what I look for when looking to join a new club... Seriously thinking about getting out of this one...
Michael

Stussi613

Quote from: 76brian on February 13, 2013, 11:28:32 AM
As for ideas to promote the club, does OVAS sponsor a tank anywhere in a public place?

I was thinking if we rounded up enough equipment to donate a nice setup to say, CHEO, for example... or some other place that would get a lot of attention from kids and families, it would draw interest in the hobby and good exposure for the club.

Members would have to volunteer to maintain it of course, but I'm pretty sure there's no lack of love for aquatics around here.

There could be a nice plaque or something beside it:

"Donated and Maintained by the Ottawa Valley Aquarium Society
www.ovas.ca"

I've never seen mention of it on here, but it seems like an obvious way to promote the hobby and the club.

The exec has talked about this, but its never gotten to the point where we can launch it. If we have enough interest on here for volunteers to support it we can certainly look at implementing it.

Stuart
I haz reef tanks.

Darth

#124
Quote from: bergenm on February 13, 2013, 11:55:25 AM
I am really not sure why we are looking at ways to promote the club, when new visitors are just being greeted with this mess...

We have new members quitting, old members quitting, people getting modded all over the place, threads frozen, the execs and the bulk of the members have completely different visions of what the club should be, and no one can agree if the club drives the forum, the forum drives the club, or they are both equal...

Definitely not what I look for when looking to join a new club... Seriously thinking about getting out of this one...
perhaps this is a good way to come together if the members and the execs collaborate on this, creating more unity amongst everyone perhaps everything else can fall into place, if we can get  past all the negativity, as I stated earlier and focus on a common goal. End of the day we all want the same thing, we want a strong club, do we agree on how it has been run? No, but perhaps this is a step in the right direction by including ourselves and showing that we want to have change, not demanding it, perhaps the honey approach is better, because we all know the vinegar route has been bitter for all

Stussi613

Darth,

I'm nominating you for post of the year for that one, you hit the nail right on the head and drove it home.  We do have an advertising budget, this year some of it it was spent attending the Ottawa Pet Expo, but there is always room to implement new ideas that make sense. We do have pamphlets at some of the stores and I'll look into adding them to the rest.

Bergenm,

Couldn't agree with you more.

On a slightly different topic, what do people think of using the OVAS Facebook page as a method for people who aren't members to post looking for, free and for sale ads?  The classifieds on OVAS will remain status quo, but the Facebook page has almost as many likes as OVAS has active users and its in a format that people are used to using.  We can also post sponsors sales and specials and links to their pages on there, as well as interesting information.  I'm not saying its going to happen immediately, and there are some people who don't use Facebook, but the majority of people do use it and it might solve some of the issues people have with the forums being closed to non-members.
I haz reef tanks.

bergenm

This battle has been going on for years, and in my opinion, will continue to do so until there are some fundamental changes with how the club is run. We can collaborate all we want, and it may help in the short term, but these issues will keep returning year after year...
Michael

charlie

Quote from: 76brian on February 13, 2013, 11:28:32 AM
As for ideas to promote the club, does OVAS sponsor a tank anywhere in a public place?

I was thinking if we rounded up enough equipment to donate a nice setup to say, CHEO, for example... or some other place that would get a lot of attention from kids and families, it would draw interest in the hobby and good exposure for the club.

Members would have to volunteer to maintain it of course, but I'm pretty sure there's no lack of love for aquatics around here.

There could be a nice plaque or something beside it:

"Donated and Maintained by the Ottawa Valley Aquarium Society
www.ovas.ca"

I've never seen mention of it on here, but it seems like an obvious way to promote the hobby and the club.
I support that idea 100%, the club has donated 3 tanks to different schools in the recent pass, we went & set them up etc , everyone of them had a thread on the forum( i just can`t find them now.)
The club bought a tank for a sick gentleman whose tank was accidentally broken & i delivered it personally although i was not in any capacity of the club other than a member.
The promoted the acquisition of tanks etc for a special needs school after reading a thread where a member posted what his project was, again all of these efforts were on the forum.
We recently had a discussion of doing a tank @ the Pearly Rideau home, unfortunately the home could not accommodate a tank in the residence.
These are a few that i can recall - can we do more -most certainly, but with very limited  volunteers it`s difficult.
I can tell you that the club reached out several times over to do promotions at various locations but was declined due corporate  stores policy, including those that are named in Darth`s thread, Petsmart`s policy does not allow it, but they allow the grey hound club to do drives, even the old Super Pet was approached several times but was declined, the club has always tried, but it`s not as easy as we think.
Pamphlets , news bulletin was this year set up at local sponsors store that allowed us to do so.
I hope that this not get interpreted as excuses, but we do try with what manpower we have , Time for the few volunteers is scarce after dealing with their personal life & the little they have  left is poured into try & run this club,BTW i want to thank all who do & have volunteered at OVAS, it`s through your appreciated efforts & the support of it#s members that OVAS will be celebrating it`s 60 Th anniversary in 2014..
The vlounteers we get easily are the on line volunteers, we actually need more volunteers away from the cyber world to be able to do more.
Regards

ajm1961

Quote from: bergenm on February 13, 2013, 12:13:52 PM
This battle has been going on for years, and in my opinion, will continue to do so until there are some fundamental changes with how the club is run.

What kind of fundamental changes do you think would help?
Seriously - I'm not asking this rhetorically.
I want this club to succeed as well.
SHARE YOUR PASSION FOR THE HOBBY!

charlie

Here is another tid bit - when the previous webmaster re opened the classifeds there was an honour system of non members donating  to the club - guess how much donations the club got???????

Hookup

Quote from: charlie on February 13, 2013, 12:20:47 PM
I support that idea 100%, the club has donated 3 tanks to different schools in the recent pass, we went & set them up etc , everyone of them had a thread on the forum( i just can`t find them now.)
The club bought a tank for a sick gentleman whose tank was accidentally broken & i delivered it personally although i was not in any capacity of the club other than a member.
The promoted the acquisition of tanks etc for a special needs school after reading a thread where a member posted what his project was, again all of these efforts were on the forum.
We recently had a discussion of doing a tank @ the Pearly Rideau home, unfortunately the home could not accommodate a tank in the residence.
These are a few that i can recall - can we do more -most certainly, but with very limited  volunteers it`s difficult.
I can tell you that the club reached out several times over to do promotions at various locations but was declined due corporate  stores policy, including those that are named in Darth`s thread, Petsmart`s policy does not allow it, but they allow the grey hound club to do drives, even the old Super Pet was approached several times but was declined, the club has always tried, but it`s not as easy as we think.
Pamphlets , news bulletin was this year set up at local sponsors store that allowed us to do so.
I hope that this not get interpreted as excuses, but we do try with what manpower we have , Time for the few volunteers is scarce after dealing with their personal life & the little they have  left is poured into try & run this club,BTW i want to thank all who do & have volunteered at OVAS, it`s through your appreciated efforts & the support of it#s members that OVAS will be celebrating it`s 60 Th anniversary in 2014..
The vlounteers we get easily are the on line volunteers, we actually need more volunteers away from the cyber world to be able to do more.
Regards

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 13, 2013, 11:59:35 AM
The exec has talked about this, but its never gotten to the point where we can launch it. If we have enough interest on here for volunteers to support it we can certainly look at implementing it.

Stuart



This was done by two members for Rogers House.  They asked for OVAS support, for both donated equipment and hours/help to maintain the system.  Unfortunately, at that time not much happened at all.   The two members, took it on them selves to get cleared for Rogers house, setup what they had and buy/give the rest to the tank. 

It ran well for a few years that way. 

Maybe Rogers House needs help again?

bergenm

QuoteWhat kind of fundamental changes do you think would help?

PM sent.
Michael

Feivel

Good effort guys and keeping it civil and comming to terms with this discussion/thread :) 
Some good ideas are there, i also have always wondered/asked why sponsors (and i believe i have stated this in previous posts over time) do not advertise for OVAS, even a "I sponsor OVAS" with a LOGO in a plastic sleeve protector taped to the front door, I once won a koralia 1250 from Ray (Thanks again)at a meeting, And I like the free giveaways,  I offer some free frags to new or upcoming reefers, on behalf of the salty side, as a donation to the club to help out promotions.

Sue

From what I've seen of OVAS membership numbers and  the big conference they are putting on this year, the club is doing fantastic!  Maybe they could have a short saltwater workshop (like how to make frags?) at one of the sponsors tables in the manufacturers room at Aquamania.

As an idea for future years, and people with more computer skills than I have...I liked Az's  idea of  limited  'free' posts to the classifieds.  I would suggest making the same rule for both members and non members so neither side feels singled out, and allowing only 8-10 posts a year period. If someone needs to buy/sell/or lookfor/ more than once a month ...there could be profit motives, and there are lots of other on-line places to do that. Maybe something like a on-line bulletin board where an ovas computer sends them the  approval to post  a generic form ahead of time, so they can keep track of how many have been sent. 

Greatwhite

Quote from: Sue on February 17, 2013, 09:33:58 AM
As an idea for future years, and people with more computer skills than I have...I liked Az's  idea of  limited  'free' posts to the classifieds.  I would suggest making the same rule for both members and non members so neither side feels singled out, and allowing only 8-10 posts a year period. If someone needs to buy/sell/or lookfor/ more than once a month ...there could be profit motives, and there are lots of other on-line places to do that. Maybe something like a on-line bulletin board where an ovas computer sends them the  approval to post  a generic form ahead of time, so they can keep track of how many have been sent. 

There are members (and non members) who have little frag farms running.  They use the classifieds legitimately to offer these frags to other users. I have seen frags offered this way that are just not available from fish shops - ever.  It's a great way to spread the enjoyment of a nice salt tank. - and yes, there is always a profit motive when selling things. :)

Az's suggestion is completely valid as it is... Non members who want to get into the fragging business can pay the fee for full classifieds access if their "business" kicks off.

If we were to restrict to 8-10 posts per year, some people would not be able to post anymore after mid-january... :)

Fishnut

There are those who were using  OVAS as their own personal marketing venue and not even willing to pay $20 towards the club in support.  If you sell hundreds in frags over the course of a year, buying a $20 would be a nice way to say thanks to an organization for providing the medium for you to sell so much.  OVAS was exploited.

So how can OVAS tell the difference between someone who does this as a hobby and wants to share and someone who is more than just a simply hobbyist?  What should OVAS tell it's members (who's money it is that pays for this website) that they are helping pay for something that others get for free and are exploiting?

bergenm

QuoteThere are those who were using  OVAS as their own personal marketing venue and not even willing to pay $20 towards the club in support.  If you sell hundreds in frags over the course of a year, buying a $20 would be a nice way to say thanks to an organization for providing the medium for you to sell so much.  OVAS was exploited.

So how can OVAS tell the difference between someone who does this as a hobby and wants to share and someone who is more than just a simply hobbyist?  What should OVAS tell it's members (who's money it is that pays for this website) that they are helping pay for something that others get for free and are exploiting?

I'm guessing you missed this part...

QuoteGood effort guys and keeping it civil and comming to terms with this discussion/thread
Michael

dakrazyone

$20 is a steal, maybe having different pricing scheme and packages for people who do use classified for sales would be nice. I know there are many people who would gladly pay more than $20 to have their stuff advertised.  That's only $1.66/month if you break it down yearly.  I have a paid membership and enjoy meeting new hobbyist through the classified.  Thank you OVAS.

Stussi613

The issue wasn't with people selling items on the classifieds without paying for a membership, it was with people blatantly breaking the classified rules and re-posting, bumping and abusing the mods for enforcing the rules.  That's not to say it was only non-members who were doing it - but the majority of the people doing it were non-members.

I brought up the idea of using the Facebook page for non-members to post items for sale, trade, free and looking for and it didn't get a single response so its pretty clear to me (and by that I mean personally, not speaking for the club) that the issues people have with the closing of the classifieds has more to do with the fact that they were removed from the forum than having a place to post items...but I've been wrong before.
I haz reef tanks.

charlie

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 17, 2013, 03:59:46 PM
The issue wasn't with people selling items on the classifieds without paying for a membership, it was with people blatantly breaking the classified rules and re-posting, bumping and abusing the mods for enforcing the rules.  That's not to say it was only non-members who were doing it - but the majority of the people doing it were non-members.

I brought up the idea of using the Facebook page for non-members to post items for sale, trade, free and looking for and it didn't get a single response so its pretty clear to me (and by that I mean personally, not speaking for the club) that the issues people have with the closing of the classifieds has more to do with the fact that they were removed from the forum than having a place to post items...but I've been wrong before.
I can attest to that personally, when i was moderating the c;assifieds were open, but there was non bumping policy for non members, one such non member bumped his post to which i followed the rules & removed it with a PM to the person explaining why it was removed, the person then went on line bought a membership through the Pay PAl store & immedietly bumped his ad again i removed it - i got an abusing PM from the said member, what the tyrant did not know is when you purches a membership through the Pay Pal the notification goes to the webmaster & it can take days before it filters down to the Mod.That`s the kind of abuse a volunteering mod has to put up with.
Charlie

Fishnut


Darth

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 17, 2013, 03:59:46 PM

I brought up the idea of using the Facebook page for non-members to post items for sale, trade, free and looking for and it didn't get a single response so its pretty clear to me (and by that I mean personally, not speaking for the club) that the issues people have with the closing of the classifieds has more to do with the fact that they were removed from the forum than having a place to post items...but I've been wrong before.
there were many other options brought up as well, yet not one of the execs has ever chimed in to even discuss this, because this was mentioned, and no one commented on it, means there is more to the reasoning? Where is the logic in that, there were other suggestions, but because this one was opted for by an exec this is the one that is used, in my opinion saying here this is the idea, oh you don't like it too bad, what about all the other options that not one person said anything about? I thought it was a place to throw out ideas, and have the execs talk about it. Yet here we go again back to the same thing
Quote from: Fishnut on February 17, 2013, 01:36:11 PM
There are those who were using  OVAS as their own personal marketing venue and not even willing to pay $20 towards the club in support.  If you sell hundreds in frags over the course of a year, buying a $20 would be a nice way to say thanks to an organization for providing the medium for you to sell so much.  OVAS was exploited.

So how can OVAS tell the difference between someone who does this as a hobby and wants to share and someone who is more than just a simply hobbyist?  What should OVAS tell it's members (who's money it is that pays for this website) that they are helping pay for something that others get for free and are exploiting?
and once again here we are with all the negativity been thrown around, it seems a lot of this is stemming from your words, I think you need a time out here
Quote from: charlie on February 17, 2013, 05:26:53 PM
I can attest to that personally, when i was moderating the c;assifieds were open, but there was non bumping policy for non members, one such non member bumped his post to which i followed the rules & removed it with a PM to the person explaining why it was removed, the person then went on line bought a membership through the Pay PAl store & immedietly bumped his ad again i removed it - i got an abusing PM from the said member, what the tyrant did not know is when you purches a membership through the Pay Pal the notification goes to the webmaster & it can take days before it filters down to the Mod.That`s the kind of abuse a volunteering mod has to put up with.
Charlie
and again we have heard this over and over again, saying how abused the mods are over and over doesn't make it easier to understand, we get it

This whole thread has once again come back to this, people have given ideas, One exec had made a suggestion and then pouted when no one said it was a good idea, well there were a ton of other ideas as well, but all decisions have to made by the execs, so did the execs VOTE and say let them put it on facebook? I doubt it, so don't blame the users because no one chimed in. All the execs have done (with the exception of one) have just either started a war and then fueled the fire, or reiterated again what we all heard, but guess what, not one exec has chimed in on a way to help the club, not a peep. Its sad because when this thread started to turn around I was like great this is going to work, but alas, once again you have failed so hats off to you ovas!! Way to go!

ajm1961

Given the raw emotions about the classified policy, I personally find it difficult to wade into the discussion without feeling that whatever I will say will be criticized. This could be the very reason a number of other executives, or other members for that matter, prefer to keep silent.

I am glad that of our members have chimed in with some suggestions - there is a passion out there, and that means people care. That's better to me than indifference.  I won't discount or debate any of these suggestions right now. I prefer taking some time to consider them carefully and see how these can be worked out as a whole, with the best interests of the membership and the goals of the club.

If the expectation is that we make all these suggestions happen right away, and in particular, reverse the decision about the classified policy, I don't think that is the way to go. We need to find lasting solutions that both facets of the club (face-to-face and virtual) will find agreeable and fair, while contributing positively to the club's goals. We can't afford to switch policies around every year - this is becoming  confusing, and will only serve to alienate people even further.

In the end I hope we all want the same thing: a thriving club - a place where new and experienced hobbyists can gather either face-to-face or virtually to learn from each other, share the joys of our hobby, as well as promote to the community at large. Obviously how we achieve those objectives is paramount to the club's success.

In 2014, OVAS will celebrate 60 years of existence. We have come a long way since its creation, and I believe it is something worth preserving for future generations. Let's try to make that happen together: salties, freshies, and plantaholics - face-to-face or virtually. But most of all, with respect and collaboration.
SHARE YOUR PASSION FOR THE HOBBY!

Stussi613

Darth,

I just re-read all 7 pages of this thread to make sure I didn't miss anything.  If I did, I apologize.

Other than suggestions to re-open the classifieds, which the president of the club has stated will not be entertained by this exec, the only other options presented require serious recoding of the website. Introducing a middle membership tier, or a limited number of free posts by non-members is very easy to propose, but much harder to implement. The post approval may be easier.  I'm not going to speak for the webmaster, but I would presume she will agree when she's back from vacation.  Regardless, Fishnut posted that she would ask the webmaster about this and we will follow up to see if it can be done.

In regards to this:

QuoteOne exec had made a suggestion and then pouted when no one said it was a good idea, well there were a ton of other ideas as well, but all decisions have to made by the execs, so did the execs VOTE and say let them put it on facebook?

I'm not pouting, I offered an immediate solution to a problem voiced by non-members over and over again...one that has been pointed out numerous times works for the Aylmer Salty's very well...yet there was no discussion at all about it.  If people really just want a place to put things up if they aren't members the Facebook page fits the bill and its something a lot of people use everyday already.  If its a bad idea then I can accept that and move on.

I find it kind of sad that you keep saying we aren't listening to the voices being expressed here. In the past this thread would have been locked about three pages ago, but I'm leaving it active to promote POSITIVE discussion.  We may not agree with each other, but I feel like I've been fair and I've listened to what people have say.  Just because we aren't immediately implementing changes based on what is discussed here doesn't mean we are just ignoring what people are saying.

Stuart
I haz reef tanks.

Darth

I am not saying no one is listening I am saying the powers that only chime in to reiterate that the classifieds were voted closed, and that decision is final, and I UNDERSTAND that, and wish EVERYONE would stop rehashing it. Yet ppit keeps happening and this thread has been locked unlocked and in an off way be threatened to be loctked again "the fact that you let it remain open" speaks to what I am trying to get across. My point is the only ideas we have heard from the execs has been from you stussi, and for that I thank you, yet fishnut (not the first time in this thread or other threads) just berates everyone, intentional or unintentional the posts, posted by fishnut have caused a lot of heat on this thread, and my point is, if you have nothing positive to contribute stay out, you, the president, or anyone else telling everyone over and over the classifieds are closed is not changing anything. Perhaps letting us know that these ideas are being heard, and not just oh this this about classifieds being closed and we are not gonna open them again. No one expects a decsision to be made overnight, but as ,members do we not have any input? Or is it well thanks for ideas, but the execs aren't gonna listen, and we are gonna keep the classifieds closed, and the mods for the classifieds is a full time job, and blah blah. I think you have an entire community here begging to be allowed to participate, and not be told if you want to change, then sign up to be an exec. Maybe the members want to have a say in how the club is run, but don't want to be an exec. There are a few exec postions, and a lot more members, so what I am suggesting is maybe the execs need to poll the members of this club, the people who pay, not the execs that get a free membership ( and yes I know you donate your time, but lets face it money  talks) yes as I stated you guys  are there to set stuff up, and organize things, and yes its a thankless job sometimes. But perhaps if the members were included more it wouldn't be an us against them attitude. I don't want this thread to be a fight, I don't want it to be about the classifieds, I want it to be about the club, and the club is not just the execs, I don't see why decisions such as this should be left to 10-12 people or whatever it is. Maybe if the members were included in this decision it may go smoother. Stussi this is nothing against you, as I said its nice to have your input, as you seem to be the only only who is able to or willing to see through the fog. But in all honesty this whole thing is getting frustrating, and I am not gonna start a thread of how can I cancel my account, because again that is just blowing smoke, and trying to rally more ammo to us and get people riled up for all the wrong reasons, if you don't want to be a part of the club, then just stop coming I say. I think the club needs to come together as a whole, the execs need to include it's members on decisions that effect them either indirectly or directly. After all the club does not belong to the execs, but to all of us, and I think we all need to start to realize that if we are going to get over this speed bump that seems to be getting bigger and bigger, I wish we as a club can just put this to bed, and move on. As they saying goes united we stand divided we fall. Right now we are club with serious fractures to the foundation, and we will soon be divided and fall

Stussi613

I really appreciate what you are saying Darth.  Any OVAS member has a right to be heard, whether on the forum, in person at a meeting or by requesting to come to an exec meeting and make a case for something.

Sometimes it's easy to get caught up in trying to shape the direction the club will go for the season, just as its easy to get caught up in trying to continue something that was done by the previous exec to make the club better. 

The biggest challenge with these posts is what you have eluded in your previous posts. It's hard to get to a point of being constructive when multiple parties, forum members, regular members and even some of the exec are taking it in a direction that is negative.  I hear what you are saying and the exec is reading this thread so I'm sure there will be discussion on some of the point you've brought up in the future.

Lastly, I'm sorry it has come across as a threat that I'll lock the thread again.  There was a time when this thread would have been locked on page 2.  I did lock it several times to allow people a chance to cool off, as it were.  I don't want anyone to think that I'm holding the "I'll lock it" statement as a threat, but if things get out of hand again I don't really have a choice.  At the end of the day I'd love it if there were never any reported posts, no posts being edited or deleted and no threads being locked, but unfortunately its the reality of hosting an online forum.

Thanks for your input Darth, I appreciate it.
I haz reef tanks.

Greatwhite

I actually thought this thread was getting very productive there for a bit...  I think my goal (and others) was to brainstorm up some ideas that could be considered by the execs and members for future enhancement to the club and then to the forum.  Obviously, no REAL solutions to anything would be decided immediately here, although pointing people to the Facebook page is a great (free) start.

So, just to get the ball back on track... There were lots of suggestions in the thread, and it might help to group them into a growing list to avoid losing them in the 8+ pages.

1) Enhanced advertising at Sponsors... Sticker in a window and pamphlets on the counter directing new people in the hobby here for help in setting up
-  this is invaluable, by the way.  I've witnessed MANY people in certain LFSs looking for startup advice and getting wrong info - and I've tried to step in when possible to help people get on the right path

2) Take home advertising in the form of fridge magnets and aquarium thermometers
- might be interesting to expand this into a "starter kit" style goody bag containing pamphlets, starting up tips and cool little things as mentioned... kinda like welcome wagon... sponsors might include coupons?

3) 3 tier membership to allow free access to forums, or paid access to forum + classifieds, or paid access to forum + classifieds + membership to the club (card)
- I didn't see this as needing recoding of the site at all... The difference between forum only and forum + club is simply whether someone mails a card out or not..

4) Donate an aquarium and maintenance time to a public, charitable organization - like CHEO, with "This aquarium is provided by OVAS..."
- I like this.. just have to make sure that the maintenance DOES happen... Nothing worse than a neglected aquarium with someone's name on it. ;)

5) Let non-members have 5 free classifieds posts per year..

6) let basement/home business sw or fw be a sponsor as long they are a registered business from around here.

7) organize more frequent workshops, meets etc, you dont need big guys, just hearing basics from everyday hobbyists help as we forget stuff all the time. you cant get discouraged if attendance was bad one time, you have to keep doing it.

8) if you have someone looking to volunteer let him, if one exec holds two positions you would barely keep up, there will be no progress.

9) add a clause in exec contract that when they get elected they need to hold the post for the duration, if its health reason sure, if not its unfair that you leave in the middle because you didn't get along with someone or you got busy etc. 

10) Add an approval step in posting classifieds to prevent duplication/bumping of posts

11) Partnering with sponsors for raffles/draws for gift card give aways with new members to the club/forum.

12) Start directing "free members" to the facebook page to post classfieds where moderation is not as important/difficult(?)

I think I got everything... And as you can see, there were some very good suggestions amongst the complaints and arguing.

Please feel free to add anything that I may have missed, or add any new ideas and keep the list growing.  This may very well be the most the exec team has heard from us in years.. :)

Peekay

I'll add one!
13). Free memberships awarded annually to exemplary forum members:  people who post regularly over long time period, helpfully, positively, knowledgeably.  A spirit of OVAS forum ambassador membership, if you will.  There are some amazing people here that 'are' the club to people feeling out the idea of joining, assessing what the knowledge/attitude base of OVAS is. Critical to retention!   Save the cheerleader, save the world.

Feivel

Nice way to save it and bring the derailed train back on track great white :)

Some good suggestions as a whole there :)

Greatwhite

Quote from: Feivel on February 18, 2013, 12:56:11 PM
Nice way to save it and bring the derailed train back on track great white :)

Some good suggestions as a whole there :)

(It went against all I stand for to "un-derail" a conversation...)  ;)

dbl_dbl

I've referred dozens and dozens of people to OVAS from Big Als, 95% of them (and a lot of them are real hobbyists) didn't even know OVAS existed. Not sure how a small non-profit org can get it's name out, and I can't think of too many solutions, but I thought I would point that out. The discount is a huge incentive! Meeting attendance is a tougher issue, you just have to make sure people feel comfortable and like they are joining a group of people all on the same level and with the same motivations.

I've been in a few different fish clubs and I've always noticed that the meetings can really start to drag if there's a superiority air, again I do not go to the meetings for OVAS so I don't mean to offend, that's just something I noticed from past groups as I got older. It was almost intimidating for the budding hobbyist! Good luck though, we need more great groups!


Greatwhite

Quote from: dbl_dbl on February 18, 2013, 11:47:56 PM
I've referred dozens and dozens of people to OVAS from Big Als, 95% of them (and a lot of them are real hobbyists) didn't even know OVAS existed. Not sure how a small non-profit org can get it's name out, and I can't think of too many solutions, but I thought I would point that out. The discount is a huge incentive! Meeting attendance is a tougher issue, you just have to make sure people feel comfortable and like they are joining a group of people all on the same level and with the same motivations.

I've been in a few different fish clubs and I've always noticed that the meetings can really start to drag if there's a superiority air, again I do not go to the meetings for OVAS so I don't mean to offend, that's just something I noticed from past groups as I got older. It was almost intimidating for the budding hobbyist! Good luck though, we need more great groups!



Something that many "elite" aquarists forget is that they were beginners once too.  They made costly mistakes, learned from them, moved on.  They may have shared their learnings with people for the first little while, but then having to repeat the same things over and over wears on them and that's when they become stereotypical elitist jerks... (I haven't witnessed that HERE...)

I like to help people start up, but LOVE to see when people I helped step up and help someone who is where they were just a few months before.

FocusFin


I haven't visited the site for months and yet I knew when I logged in last week that there would be a thread devoted to problems/venting etc....

How did I know this, because it's been happening every session as long as I've been coming around (2006) and it will be there long after I'm gone. It's the nature of any club, committee, public group to vocalize differences of opinion or point out where things are going wrong (often perceived) or could be improved. Unfortunately, sometimes things go too far and you end up with a lot of bad feelings which (because there is minimal face to face) tend to linger for years.

Having said this, I too have noticed a significant drop off in traffic to the website. I have no doubt (in my mind) that it is related to the saltwater/classifieds issue and although membership may be as high as ever, the participation reflected in new topics, new posts and page views is about a third of what it was just two years ago. At least one sponsor has suggested the drop on the saltwater side is related to the economy, I doubt this for two reason. Following the 2008 economic meltdown, participation on the site went up in the months following. Also, we are not seeing people closing down their tanks as was the case in 2008-2009.

One would think that a drop in individuals buying and selling in the classifieds would have a positive impact on sponsor's sales but I think it is actually the opposite. The more traffic there is on the site, the more views the sponsor section gets which in turns leads to increased foot traffic. I can't count the number of times I've sold coral/fish to another member only to turn around and spend it at one of the sponsors.

There are three or four sponsors who represent the bulk of the traffic in the sponsor section (all saltwater) and while they may advertise on other sites in other cities, I would wager the majority of their business comes from customers in the immediate area and is largely a result of what they are advertising on this site.

The issue of the classifieds will continue to come up again and again and as the face of the Exec changes over the next few sessions the question to reopen to non-members will be raised. There has to be a workable solution to this issue so that saltwater club members and sponsors won't be penalized for the actions of a few who are abusing the system.

My solution for when the time comes to reopen the classifieds is to implement a near-zero tolerance for abuse. Lay out the rules once again, have members agree to the terms and then enforce it. First offense, issue a warning. Second offense, ban the account. BAN THE ACCOUNT! This avoids the inevitable arguing over "why was I banned". This type of system has been implemented elsewhere and appears to work. Will this cause some people to leave, sure, but then that's happened anyways.

I think the reality is that the club is split between freshwater, who enjoy the face to face meetings and saltwater who prefer the online forum for interacting. So cater to that. Don't waste your energy trying to get the saltwater side engaged and instead devote that time and energy to areas where they do participate, like the classifieds.

This problem is not going away and the sooner a lasting solution is found, the sooner we can move on to complaining about something else  ;D
110g saltwater/reef


I was walking down the street and a man was hammering on a roof top and he called me a Paranoid Little Weirdo. . . in morse code.

Cheebs

Quote from: FocusFin on February 19, 2013, 12:14:07 PM
I haven't visited the site for months and yet I knew when I logged in last week that there would be a thread devoted to problems/venting etc....

How did I know this, because it's been happening every session as long as I've been coming around (2006) and it will be there long after I'm gone. It's the nature of any club, committee, public group to vocalize differences of opinion or point out where things are going wrong (often perceived) or could be improved. Unfortunately, sometimes things go too far and you end up with a lot of bad feelings which (because there is minimal face to face) tend to linger for years.

Having said this, I too have noticed a significant drop off in traffic to the website. I have no doubt (in my mind) that it is related to the saltwater/classifieds issue and although membership may be as high as ever, the participation reflected in new topics, new posts and page views is about a third of what it was just two years ago. At least one sponsor has suggested the drop on the saltwater side is related to the economy, I doubt this for two reason. Following the 2008 economic meltdown, participation on the site went up in the months following. Also, we are not seeing people closing down their tanks as was the case in 2008-2009.

One would think that a drop in individuals buying and selling in the classifieds would have a positive impact on sponsor's sales but I think it is actually the opposite. The more traffic there is on the site, the more views the sponsor section gets which in turns leads to increased foot traffic. I can't count the number of times I've sold coral/fish to another member only to turn around and spend it at one of the sponsors.

There are three or four sponsors who represent the bulk of the traffic in the sponsor section (all saltwater) and while they may advertise on other sites in other cities, I would wager the majority of their business comes from customers in the immediate area and is largely a result of what they are advertising on this site.

The issue of the classifieds will continue to come up again and again and as the face of the Exec changes over the next few sessions the question to reopen to non-members will be raised. There has to be a workable solution to this issue so that saltwater club members and sponsors won't be penalized for the actions of a few who are abusing the system.

My solution for when the time comes to reopen the classifieds is to implement a near-zero tolerance for abuse. Lay out the rules once again, have members agree to the terms and then enforce it. First offense, issue a warning. Second offense, ban the account. BAN THE ACCOUNT! This avoids the inevitable arguing over "why was I banned". This type of system has been implemented elsewhere and appears to work. Will this cause some people to leave, sure, but then that's happened anyways.

I think the reality is that the club is split between freshwater, who enjoy the face to face meetings and saltwater who prefer the online forum for interacting. So cater to that. Don't waste your energy trying to get the saltwater side engaged and instead devote that time and energy to areas where they do participate, like the classifieds.

This problem is not going away and the sooner a lasting solution is found, the sooner we can move on to complaining about something else  ;D

Very well put, and I agree wiht everything your wrote.
Aside form the auctions, I've only been to perhaps 2 meetings in my 6 years here. It's not because I don't like the people or the subjects, everything is amazing. It's just how I am... I don't know.. I like commenting and helping on the site. I'm not big on going to meetings, and I rarely have time. But I still want to get the club back to as lively as it was a couple years ago.

As shown with any succesful company, website, individual or club - more internet exposure is the way to go nowadays. EVERYONE is on their phone, computer etc, several times a day. OVAS is succesful to be sure, but maybe somehow we can give it a little bump. Me (as well as a couple friends) came here for the classifieds, and stayed for the people and information.

az

#15  stop some sponsors post 5 one line threads in 5 minutes in order to push other sponsors' threads down.

#16  ban forum/ovas members who constantly send new visitors to other sites etc.
AQUA VALLEY    
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Severum

I agree with #15. Its the same as bumping abuse back in the old days of the classifieds. There is no place for it in OVAS or among sponsors.
Regards,
Steve Everum

"We like people for their qualities, but love them for their defects."

120 gallon reef

Jimbo

I defintaley agree with Az on his points. Do we have a prominent "sticky" that notifies users they will be warned and later banned if they abuse these points?

I also liked GreatWhite's summary.

Some other ideas that i'd like to piggy back on from previous comments are:
- get the OVAS community to provide working groups. The exec doesn't need to do all the work themselves and neither should they. If there are a group of like minded people interested in a particular topic, the exec should utilize them by providing direction and asking them to brainstorm ideas and present their findings.

- the OVAS membership should be encouraged to go to the exec with ideas they want to pursue if there is enough interest in the community, and the idea is deemed as adding value to the OVAS community. Allocation of any OVAS funding or exec effort (if any) for each idea should be based on perceived value to the current and future membership.

- get the exec to bring decisions to the OVAS community when it affects the community.

- provide hands on work shops. For example; The planted tank community gave a great presentation on the best way to apply backgrounds on your tank. If I would have known how good the presentation would have been I would have filmed (or at the very least taken photos) and posted it in this forum. The only problem with this presentation was that there were only 10 people there to view it.

- OVAS web videos/tutorials. The amount of reading required to get started and be mildly successful in this hobby is staggering. If I had one place where I could have gotten reliable information, and access to knowledgable people, I would have saved a significant amount of time and money. Instead I currently have to sift through lots of sites, with often controdictary information to find an answer to something that should be trivial. Maybe OVAS should retire the library in favor of a learning centre?

Since I haven't seen too many suggestions for work shops/online tutorials, ones that I wish were available are:
General
1. Choosing a stand
   I. DIY vs prebuilt.
   II. Materials and construction.
   II. Cost differences.

2. How to build a stand
   I. Basic tank plans.
   II. Materials and costs.
   III. Common mistakes and lessons learned.
   IV. Where to get wood cut, if you're not that handy.
   V. Where to get a stand made, if you're really not handy.

3. Choosing a tank
   I. Acrylic vs glass - pros and cons
   II. Rimmed or rimless
   III. Does size matter
      a. Length vs width vs height
      b. Fish to tank ratio

4. Choosing lights
   I. Fluorescent, LED, metal halides, incandescent
   II. Pros and cons of each
   III. Costs - initial vs ongoing
   IV. Lifespan of your light
   V. Light output and where it would be used
   VI. How to hang your light and the options available
   VII. The pros and cons of timers

4. How to apply a background
   I. Background options - paint, vinyl, adhesive backing
   II. Pros and cons of each
   III. Recommended paints, vinyls, adhesive backings
   IV. How to apply paint, vinyl, adhesive backing
   V. Where to buy and cost

5. DIY
   I. CO2 reactor
   II. Sumps
   III. To many other DIY ideas to mention

6. Underwater Photography
   I. Equipment required
   II. How to light your tank
   III. How to setup your camera
   IV. Taking your first semi professional photo
   V. How to take a good photo

Freshwater
1. Introduction to freshwater
   I. Setup options - fish only, planted, brackish
   II. Tropical or cold water
   III. Pros and cons of each
   IV. Basic equipment required to get started and cost
   IV. Recomended equipment and cost
   V. Ongoing maintenance, time and cost
   
2. Setting up your first tank

3. Cycling your tank

4. Hitch hikers - the good and the bad
   I. Inverts
   II. Algaes
   III. How to get rid of the bad ones
   IV. Parasites and diseases and cures

5. Food
   I. Different types and which do you need for your tank
   II. How much food do you need to feed your tank
   III. The perils of over feeding
   IV. Make your own food
   V. Growing live food

6. Tank maintenance
   I. What needs to be cleaned/changed/replaced
   II. When do I need to clean/change/replace things

7. Breeding fish
   I. What is required
   II. Special considerations - temperature, lighting, feeding, breeder tank
   III. Which fish are "easy" to breed and which aren't
   IV. Looking after fry
   V. I've got a lot of baby fish, what do I do with them

8. Plants
   I. High and low light
   II. Plant care
   III. Easy plants to difficult plants

9. Water quality
   I. Checking your parameters
   II. Additives - the good and the bad
   III. How to "fix" bad water

Saltwater
1. Introduction to saltwater fish keeping
   I. Setup options - Fish only, coral and fish, coral only
   II. Pros and cons of each
   III. Basic equipment required to get started and cost
   IV. Recomended equipment and cost
   V. Ongoing maintenance, time and cost

2. Setting up your first tank
   I. Bare bottom or substrate
   II. Live rock
   III. Selecting you substrate
   IV. Cured or dry rock
   V. Basic rock designs
   VI. What goes in when
   VII. Water parameters and how to keepmthem stable

3. How to cycle your tank

4. How to cure live rock

5. Hitch hikers - the good and the bad
   See freshwater section, but tailor for salt water.

6. Food
   See freshwater section, but tailor for salt water

7. Tank maintenance
   See freshwater section, but tailor for salt water

8. Breeding fish
   See freshwater section, but tailor for salt water

9. Introduction to corals
   I. SPS, LPS, mushrooms, zoos
   II. Coral care
   III. Easy corals to difficult corals
   IV. Coral warfare
   V. How to attach large and small corals to rocks
   VI. Remounting frags onto rubble

10. Advanced coral care
   I. Coloration
   II. Growth
   III. Light needs
   IV. Water flow
   V. Nutrients
   VI. Placement in the tank
   VII. Water quality

11. Fragging corals
   I. What is required
   II. How do I make a frag from an LPS, SPS, mushroom, etc
   III. How do I grow my frag

12. Water quality
   See freshwater section, but tailor for salt water

I'm not suggesting that any of the above recommendations form an exhaustive list and are acurate, but I am hoping that they serve a starting point for people interested in getting this kind of thing going.

Obviously, some of these workshops/tutorials will be longer than others. The purpose isn't to create the longest presentation, but to create the most complete and comprehensive workshops/tutorials that deal with a specific topic.

Please add on to the above ideas, and share your thoughts.


Quote from: az on February 22, 2013, 11:40:55 AM
#15  stop some sponsors post 5 one line threads in 5 minutes in order to push other sponsors' threads down.

#16  ban forum/ovas members who constantly send new visitors to other sites etc.


Stussi613

Thanks for your input Jimbo!  Great points and well thought out.  The items you mentioned for the learning center are excellent.

As the head moderator for the club, I'll answer in regards to Az's points:

We can't stop sponsors from posting items in the forum. The timing of the posts being aside, if 10 other people started topics after a sponsor posts weekly specials it would have the same effect. 

The second point is noted, but if I understand what Az is saying the only way I can stop people from telling new users about other resources is if there is proof they are saying "stop using OVAS and start using x resource instead". The reality is that anyone on here can point people to places like reefcentral, nano-reef, cichlid-forums or plantedtank and there is nothing wrong with that.  With the myriad of resources out there, we can't say people who come to OVAS can only use OVAS any more than we can tell people they can only shop at OVAS sponsors, or that they have to buy products and livestock from stores vs people selling fry or items they have purchased in bulk from out of town.

Stuart
I haz reef tanks.

veron

I'd like to add my 2 cents, oh the pennies are gone ;)   I think sponsors post of sales etc,, should be
in there own forum  and not attached to ''RECENT POSTS''   same as the classifieds are not attached.
IMO  the ''RECENT POSTS'' is for the hobbiest to get a quick glance. Maybe the STORES could hace a banner
were you click on it if you want to know whats in or on sale.
ALSO, I think store owners/sponsors  should be only able to post on there own forum and no longer as a
hobbiest in general areas. To me this creates a fair playing field. All these ideas are already in pace in most
large Hobbiest sites. Also, most of the OTTAWA valley fish/coral people know were the stores are.

veron

Also, Classifieds should be free to all hobbiests who sign up at OVAS. We buy stuff, we sell stuff and we create newer
hobbiests whom shop at the sponsors stores.

Tomtopping

#160
Quote from: Greatwhite on February 08, 2013, 10:32:48 AM
In regards to selling equipment on the classifieds, I think that most of the salt people here are all set up and probably not looking to get anyone's used stuff.  Most people just starting up don't even know about OVAS and the forum until after they have most of their equipment too.  There are some exceptions, of course...

So ya... Trying to sell items here will be slow because there's not a huge number of people actively looking for things.  It's certainly nice to give people on the forum first shot at things, but if you want to hit more people with your ads, you are better off on Kijiji for a quicker sale...

When I'm trying to sell something in a hurry, I take into account the fact that what I'm selling is USED.  USED items should not be priced the same as new - no matter how little use it actually had.  I tend to price things at 50% of what I paid, knowing that I'm going to take a loss - but at least it will have sold.

Selling frags and fish, I'd imagine that if prices were set a little lower in the classifieds, people might be more inclined to jump on it.  $40 for a Bubble tip anemone is what I'd pay at a store, so I'd expect a little break buying direct from someone on the classifieds.

I look at the classifieds daily, but I haven't seen anything worth pursuing... The few things I did see ended up sold quickly.



I'm new to this board my brother told me about this forum. I'm just getting into salt water i found this site  because of the classifieds there were many things on here i was interested in purchasing  so i registered and it took 2 weeks to get approved for the forum i kinda lost hope and bought all my stuff new  and off kijiji that's just my 2 cents

veron

 Yeh it would be hard to tell a store owner not to post in the general forums but alot of times store owners
get caught up in threads and/or start shilling there product.
I've been on REEF CENTRAL for years and years and most good well known sponsors do not post unless
its on there paid forum to help customers. Chances are as a store owner you'll know allot about reefing already
so what questions can you ask of the hobby? Just my thoughts.

As to the ''RECENT POSTS''  section I think no sponsors should be able to advertise/post there. I find it annoying
as it all stores all the time. I think everyone should have a smaller colorful banner on the front page like
RAY has. 1 click and your at the stores site. 8)

Stussi613

Quote from: veron on February 23, 2013, 11:15:07 AM
Chances are as a store owner you'll know allot about reefing already
so what questions can you ask of the hobby? Just my thoughts.

Most of the posts by Az, and other sponsors, in the main forum are helping people with the knowledge they have about fish and corals...I wouldn't want to see this stop in any way.

Stuart
I haz reef tanks.

fish

Quote from: veron on February 23, 2013, 11:15:07 AM
Yeh it would be hard to tell a store owner not to post in the general forums but alot of times store owners
get caught up in threads and/or start shilling there product.
I've been on REEF CENTRAL for years and years and most good well known sponsors do not post unless
its on there paid forum to help customers. Chances are as a store owner you'll know allot about reefing already
so what questions can you ask of the hobby? Just my thoughts.

As to the ''RECENT POSTS''  section I think no sponsors should be able to advertise/post there. I find it annoying
as it all stores all the time. I think everyone should have a smaller colorful banner on the front page like
RAY has. 1 click and your at the stores site. 8)

I know Jeremy from Premium Aquatics for one has been hugely helpful in quite a few of the big threads on RC (e.g. Bubble King Owners). On the saltwater side, there are so few experienced reefers contributing or even around. Take away help from the sponsors and what do you have left? The forums are near dead - how else is somebody new going to get any help. That's part of the problem for me. All we ever see are newbie posts. What are those of use who have been at it for a while going to learn if our peers just don't care...

fish

BTW I only have 57 posts (most of them on this thread:-) and I've been around since 2006 - I just checked - so I guess I have never really been engaged. Truthfully I spend my time on RC but I would like a local forum to feel a part of.

charlie

Quote from: fish on February 23, 2013, 09:15:34 PM
BTW I only have 57 posts (most of them on this thread:-) and I've been around since 2006 - I just checked - so I guess I have never really been engaged. Truthfully I spend my time on RC but I would like a local forum to feel a part of.
aAs you pointed out you have been around since 2006 & most of your 57 post are in this thread, can you enlighten us what has precluded you from making other post to help others in the last 7 yrs & what makes you feel  like you are not part of?
These questions just came to me as i read your statement & is not intended to be confrontional & comes from me as another member of the club & not in the capacity of President.
Regards

Darth

Quote from: fish on February 23, 2013, 09:10:40 PM
I know Jeremy from Premium Aquatics for one has been hugely helpful in quite a few of the big threads on RC (e.g. Bubble King Owners). On the saltwater side, there are so few experienced reefers contributing or even around. Take away help from the sponsors and what do you have left? The forums are near dead - how else is somebody new going to get any help. That's part of the problem for me. All we ever see are newbie posts. What are those of use who have been at it for a while going to learn if our peers just don't care...

I don't think this is a fair statement at all, I have seen tons of seasoned fish keepers here post, and anytime someone new asks any questions they are bombared with advice within a short amount of time. There are a few of us who are very active on the forum. Your statement about being only newbie posts, yet you who have admitted being around since 2006 yet have so few posts, so that would say tha you fall into the catergory of which you have called out.

What would you suggest the others should post about?
and in regards to the sponsors posting I get what people are saying. Sponsors should post whatever to promote their shops, but instead of creating a new topic for every species they get in, they should reply to the orignal post. I agree Az, ray and such have always helped with questions and advice and should not be limited, but for instance what Az does, he posts specials, and instead of starting a new topic titled "more specials' He replies to his orginal thread, leaving the "new post section " fairly cleaned up

I think maybe this thread should have a rule, if you can post what's wrong, then please have an opinion on what to do better, it may change the focus back on topic again

Greatwhite

Quote from: Darth on February 23, 2013, 10:12:16 PM
I think maybe this thread should have a rule, if you can post what's wrong, then please have an opinion on what to do better, it may change the focus back on topic again

I'm sure that I've suggested this too... If you have a problem, it's fine to draw attention to it - but it REALLY helps if you have a possible solution to the problem too.

Darth

Quote from: Tomtopping on February 23, 2013, 09:20:24 AM


I'm new to this board my brother told me about this forum. I'm just getting into salt water i found this site  because of the classifieds there were many things on here i was interested in purchasing  so i registered and it took 2 weeks to get approved for the forum i kinda lost hope and bought all my stuff new  and off kijiji that's just my 2 cents
Yes that's a long time to become registered, perhaps they can put in what most other forums, send you out an email as soon as you register, you reply to the email, so the system knows you actually did want to join, and then bam its done. no more waiting for a physical person to approve it

Hookup

Quote from: fish on February 23, 2013, 09:10:40 PM
I know Jeremy from Premium Aquatics for one has been hugely helpful in quite a few of the big threads on RC (e.g. Bubble King Owners). On the saltwater side, there are so few experienced reefers contributing or even around. Take away help from the sponsors and what do you have left? The forums are near dead - how else is somebody new going to get any help. That's part of the problem for me. All we ever see are newbie posts. What are those of use who have been at it for a while going to learn if our peers just don't care...

This is a common trend.  When the forum loses its sense of community, the "older members" often move on.  I think it's too bad.  Alternately, Most of the longest running forum members are also very active in the club events.  Most of the uber-active threads are about making the forum something different.   I think there are parallels here.

ajm1961

Quote from: Darth on February 24, 2013, 06:52:42 AM
Yes that's a long time to become registered, perhaps they can put in what most other forums, send you out an email as soon as you register, you reply to the email, so the system knows you actually did want to join, and then bam its done. no more waiting for a physical person to approve it
This is not the typical wait for registration to the forum - it's fairly quick normally. This is the first time I've heard a complaint about it. I know our webmaster was away on holiday during that period so somehow it got missed.
As far as "automatic" registration is concerned, I don't see it happening given that some people who were banned from the site continue to attempt registration under different names or email addresses. Some type of vetting from a live person is required (unless we can program a series of rules to do that - I doubt our current server software is capable of that).
SHARE YOUR PASSION FOR THE HOBBY!

Darth

as far as banned members go. you block the ip, I am sure there is softwre that can do this, we just hear a lot of how backed up the webmaster is, and perhaps something like this while it may be a pita to implement, can long term reduce some of the load

ajm1961

You may be right - but I know of one instance where more than one legitimate forum member shared the same IP (work location?) - that was creating some confusion.
SHARE YOUR PASSION FOR THE HOBBY!

charlie

Guys , i`ve followed this thread from it`s inception & see a lot of good suggestions. As a long time club ( before becoming a part of it`s free on line community ( ovas.ca), i have to wonder if the CLUB continues it`s demise  in financial membership,as was evident last year  what will happen to it`s on line community?It might just be time to close the club of 59 yrs & have a full fledged stand alone web club .
Regards Charlie

fish

Quote from: charlie on February 23, 2013, 09:24:56 PM
aAs you pointed out you have been around since 2006 & most of your 57 post are in this thread, can you enlighten us what has precluded you from making other post to help others in the last 7 yrs & what makes you feel  like you are not part of?
These questions just came to me as i read your statement & is not intended to be confrontional & comes from me as another member of the club & not in the capacity of President.
Regards

No sense of confrontation perceived. I am not one of the angry people, nor do I care to post in classifieds. I am just a hobbyist that would like to live in a city where we have a thriving reef community that comes together like every other city in the world. I am genuinely perplexed why Ottawa cannot do what the rest of the world can.

I joined here early on in my foray into reefkeeping probably because of a referral - I really don't remember why. There wasn't alot going on then and at some point along the way I found Ivan and Aquaria Canada. It had a sense of community and was hopping. I moved there and was quite active. Life came along and I got too busy for a while so I checked out for a bit. When I came back I learned everybody had moved here so I came back here. There was a pretty good group here but it died shortly after I came back. Around that time RC improved their infrastructure and so I went there and am fairly active both in learning and in trying to help others. I have also purchased some nice gear from their classified forum. Whether the exec of this forum cares to hear it or not commerce drives traffic. That is just a fact and has been for thousands of years.

I have kept an eye on this site through time in hopes of it picking up and when I saw this thread looking like people were trying to fix it I started to pay attention. I did try to offer some perspective but was flamed by your rather aptly named treasurer despite my prefacing and closing my post with respectfully. I saw others try to do the same with similar results. I would offer a suggestion about that but I am pretty sure that would cause a small war and likely see me banned.

I don't want a forum tailored to me, I just want the forums to succeed. There is an anger and a bitterness here that I haven't paid enough attention to really understand but I do know I don't care for. There is one individual who has, I have learned, caused a fair bit of trouble here and perhaps resulted in forum policies that dissuade a thriving community. Certainly and as is evident from this thread there is a real us and them vibe to this place. I hear stories about edited posts and monitored pm. I can't believe that's true but to have people talking this way cannot be helping the cause. I heard another rumour that the exec was lawyering up to defend itself from member attacks at Canoac. If there is any basis to any of these rumors you have to wonder how things got so horribly out of control.

I think hookup captured the sentiment pretty well in his post. I am not engaged because there is nothing going on here of interest to me. I am not in this to wait to answer newbie questions alone. I am looking for stimulating conversation and to learn as well. Answering newbie questions is a byproduct.

Nature abhors a vacuum and there are fragmented forums popping up all over.
One regional Facebook based group has helped me to understand a bit of the odd history of this forum although they delight in bashing ovas too much for my taste. That said, members are posting alot of interesting information all the time and I benefit from it. Yesterday I learned that I have small bristle stars and that I should be happy about it. I haven't learned anything here in a long time.  

Another forum based one is largely unmoderated, has on open classified policy and is starting to show some promise. People are behaving well all on their own so far. I have also had the privilege of joining a smaller Facebook group with some pretty seasoned reefers. Their motto is just the hobby without the drama. I point this out because it has been suggested traffic is slow because people are leaving the hobby. This may be part of the issue but these forums and Facebook pages are tell me that alot of people are not leaving the hobby. They are just leaving Ovas and it seems the politics and drama are big part of the reason why. There is alot more activity on any one of these other groups than there is here. Membership on the forum based group is up 50% in the last two weeks alone.

To those who suggest I try to offer suggestions when pointing out shortcomings - what can I offer that hasn't already been suggested before other than if these suggestions aren't taken seriously I can't see the Ovas forum portion of the club surviving. My participation in this forum is now pretty much limited to checking the vendor forums weekly. I don't think it will be long before your most active sponsors come to the realization that their reach is declining and start marketing to the other groups. Sadly when that happens I doubt I'll come back at all. I think I am fairly representative of the average experienced reefer in this city with the difference being that I am still here and taking the time to try to communicate.

Charlie, I tried to write this as one member to another and I do not intend it as a criticism or as confrontational so please don't take it as such. I hear only good things about you and the many of the other volunteers trying to make this work and appreciate the work you do out of the goodness of your heart.



fish

#175
Quote from: Darth on February 23, 2013, 10:12:16 PM
I don't think this is a fair statement at all, I have seen tons of seasoned fish keepers here post, and anytime someone new asks any questions they are bombared with advice within a short amount of time. There are a few of us who are very active on the forum. Your statement about being only newbie posts, yet you who have admitted being around since 2006 yet have so few posts, so that would say tha you fall into the catergory of which you have called out.

What would you suggest the others should post about?


Maybe so. I've tried a few times though. I was keen about the show off your tank sticky. Went nowhere. Asked a question about kalk reactors. Nobody watching has been around long enough to know what I was talking about. Posted a while back when I saw where you could by dow flake for people who might be interested in dosing 2 part on a budget.

There are a few of you that are active but I don't think you can consider 6 new topics in a month as active. What would I have experienced reefers discuss on this forum? Good question. There's hardly anyone listening so that's hard to answer. Try checking out an active forum to see the diversity of ideas, information and misinformation that flies around.

Hookup

Hey Fish,   Very well said. 

And FYI most of the vendors are now starting to post on the other forum as well given the huge uptake in salty traffic in the past months on that other site/forum.

OVAS simply hasn't been a forum based club or wanted to be despite at least 2 dozen threads just like this in the past 3+ years that i've been on the site. 

Now there are about 3 or 4 ottawa-based forums / facebook pages that have started up within the past year.


Does this mean that OVAS is dead/dying? 

I cannot see that at all.  This forum is still active, and without question the events are still happening...


There have always been many alternate sites/forums.  Fish you have been active on others you listed, and many other OVAS'rs are the same i'm sure.



What still gets me scratching my head is people who are trying to make a form/club/site/facebook-page something it is not.  With so many choices, ReefCentral, AquaCentral, Facebook, OAVS, everyone should be able to get everything they are looking for without drama.


The question I have is "why are you trying to change OVAS?".   

fish

Quote from: Hookup on February 24, 2013, 10:32:13 AM

What still gets me scratching my head is people who are trying to make a form/club/site/facebook-page something it is not.  With so many choices, ReefCentral, AquaCentral, Facebook, OAVS, everyone should be able to get everything they are looking for without drama.


The question I have is "why are you trying to change OVAS?".   

Hi Hookup,

If that's aimed at me - I'm not trying to change OVAS. I am trying in my own strange way to help increase participation in the forum component. I totally get what I need from RC and AquaCentral looks like it has real potential to become the local saltwater forum but I suspect that a good part of it will come at the expense of the saltwater community here at Ovas. Fragmentation...

BTW just noticed my post counter is stuck so I guess I have posted more than 57 times:-)

Hookup

Not aimed at you Fish, or any specific person.  Just a question to the thread. 

OVAS will not suffer from a few other forums, IMO... It's a very long running club with deep roots (haha planted pun) and will be around for a long time to come im sure.

My question I'd, with all other options out there, why do people feel they need ovas to be something it is not?   I guess it's a bit rhetorical.  It's probably more to do with human nature than anything else.

Stussi613

Those are some great points Fish, thanks for sharing them.

I wanted to touch on a couple of items. 

The first is that any post that is edited, or deleted, is accompanied by a PM to the user from the moderator that actioned it with an explanation of why it was moderated. There were issues, in the past, where things were just edited and deleted, but that doesn't happen anymore. Only clear cut violations of the forum rules result in edited/deleted posts.

The second is in regards to PM's, and the ability of the exec to read them.  The only person who can access PM's is the webmaster and the only time they would do that is in the case of a request from a police organization in relation to criminal activity.  I'm not sure where it started, but some people seem to be genuinely concerned that we can just go in and read PM's in our spare time, this is NOT the case at all.

Finally, we can't implement a "reply to this email so we know you're a real person" and you get instant access to the forum policy.  The person mentioned by you above has successfully created several new accounts, and many more unsuccessfully, in the last 2 months under a variety of IP addresses and if we used an auto system he'd be back on here every 3 hours.
I haz reef tanks.

Darth

Fish, I am sorry if my comment about posting something positive came off wrong, it was not at all geared towards you personally, its just a lot of people come on and say this is wrong, then the execs defend their position. I have been a member here for a long time, I remember how excited I was when I went from fry all the way up to spawning adult LOL. I want to see this forum succeed, so the hope in what I said was kind of a hail mary to say, no we don't all go to meetings, and no we don't all agree with things, but hey we like the forum, and want to keep it part of the club so maybe some positive posting may help, the execs would say hey some good ideas here I do apoligize if I came off sort of pompous. I agree so many with so  many things you said, and I myself had left the other place for the ovas bashing, and then rejoined, because of some people on here. I do believe we can all exist with no issues, and would love to see that.

I would Like to thank Stu for being the one exec who has been an inspiration here as a face of the execs, you have done a great job of at least acknowledging the posts here and giving feedback. It's nice to be able to post an opinion without being ripped apart for it. So I for one thank you. I think this thread is on a good track to be helpful, we all know nothing happens overnight, and change may be slow, but I for believe we all can see a change needs to come

Oh and I also had an idea for the forum (well I had seen it on another site) A review section, we can all posts personal reviews of products (not sponsors because that would be a whole can of personal worms) from food to equipment, it would give someone who was thinking of trying something an idea to get first hand reviews, not something your cousins, neighnbors, hairdressers sisters boyfriends SOmeone real and here, like hey, I just got this new light and these are my pros and cons, members can offer people to come see first hand what its is or just something to that effect so it can just be a product review section just food for thought

fish

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 24, 2013, 12:10:05 PM
Those are some great points Fish, thanks for sharing them.

I wanted to touch on a couple of items. 

The first is that any post that is edited, or deleted, is accompanied by a PM to the user from the moderator that actioned it with an explanation of why it was moderated. There were issues, in the past, where things were just edited and deleted, but that doesn't happen anymore. Only clear cut violations of the forum rules result in edited/deleted posts.

The second is in regards to PM's, and the ability of the exec to read them.  The only person who can access PM's is the webmaster and the only time they would do that is in the case of a request from a police organization in relation to criminal activity.  I'm not sure where it started, but some people seem to be genuinely concerned that we can just go in and read PM's in our spare time, this is NOT the case at all.

Finally, we can't implement a "reply to this email so we know you're a real person" and you get instant access to the forum policy.  The person mentioned by you above has successfully created several new accounts, and many more unsuccessfully, in the last 2 months under a variety of IP addresses and if we used an auto system he'd be back on here every 3 hours.

I didn't actually believe any of the crazy rumours and in retrospect I probably should not have propagated them here - I just wanted to point out that I'm hearing them. Something just doesn't add up. Why a city full of otherwise so polite Canadians could feel so strongly as to lash out so violently against a website about keeping aquariums escapes me. I mean really, can you imagine a more harmless hobby and yet...

I don't think anyone who takes two seconds to think about it would believe people with day jobs and lives would waste their time reading a bunch in chatter on PMs.

I don't have the history so if this has been suggested before I'm sorry to mention it. One thought I have had is to look hard at the way Reef Central runs their classifieds. They make it work somehow... 50 post minimum before you can post, absolutely no commercial ads http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1105272 I don't want to be seen as one of the people who are militant about classifieds - just an observation. Sure - some people will post nonsense to get to the 50 ads but others will not and it will drive activity.

Again, thank you all for spending your valuable time without compensation trying to make this all work.

fish

Quote from: Darth on February 24, 2013, 01:39:51 PM
Fish, I am sorry if my comment about posting something positive came off wrong, it was not at all geared towards you personally, its just a lot of people come on and say this is wrong, then the execs defend their position.


Peace.

And I like your review idea. I will go post something to that effect right now.


Darth

yes I like the min post idea as well, but they would have to be real posts, otherwise people will say hi 50 times LOL. but it can def stop the hit and runs for the classifieds

ajm1961

Instead of free classified, could we not ask for a token amount - for example, $5 minimum payment through PayPal will get you 3 ads. Paid club members would continue to have the privilege of posting classified with no limits. Perhaps we can extend that privilege for paid forum members? Like at $10 a year? And to make the "investment" worthwhile, look into other forum member benefits?
Just looking at all possibilities -  I recognize that some forum members will never reap all the rewards of their membership because they don't come out to face-to-face events.

SHARE YOUR PASSION FOR THE HOBBY!

Darth

Sad part is no one is going to be happy till the classifieds are back open to the general public, myself and a few others have suggested tiered memberships ie forum only but the result is gonna be the same people don't want to pay to post things, too bad we don't have something like what eBay does which is charge a small percentage of selling price. I am sure that opens a whole new set of craziness, then we would have to have someone monitor the classifieds and there would have be some sort if PayPal account t or something. Argh!! There is just no simple way about it, end result is as much as we try and make this about the club, it all comes back to the classifieds being free, so maybe it's time to open then up with the understanding they will not be moderated, take away the option to reply in the post people can post ad if someone has a question they can pm the poster, this would avoid somewhat the ability to bump posts which seems to me one of the biggest complaints. So is it possible to do this have the ability to post an add just no ability to relply to the post only contact is for pm it would be up to the poster to remove the ad if Said item is sold, or they can continue to receive Pm asking if its still available

Hookup

I thought it was 100% unanimous that the exec agreed the classified would be closed.

Has this changed?  - would an Exec weight in?

ajm1961

Quote from: Hookup on February 24, 2013, 04:00:18 PM
I thought it was 100% unanimous that the exec agreed the classified would be closed.
Has this changed?  - would an Exec weight in?
Things have not changed, we are simply exchanging views on the possibilities. If we could find a solution that both forum members and club members could live with, then things could change. This is entirely up to the future executive. Hopefully though, it shouldn't be a flip-flop in policy without some thought for a lasting solution.
That's my personal view - I am part of the current exec.
SHARE YOUR PASSION FOR THE HOBBY!

ajm1961

Quote from: Darth on February 24, 2013, 03:55:21 PM
too bad we don't have something like what eBay does which is charge a small percentage of selling price.
If we were to charge $5 for x number of ads, doesn't that take care of a nominal fee for the service? I realize that it isn't proportional to the selling price, but it will average out I think. The fee for selling items at the mini-auctions and the Giant Auction varies between 10-40% - so the online classified ends up being a bargain at the suggested price.
Just my perspective.
SHARE YOUR PASSION FOR THE HOBBY!

FocusFin



For when the day arrives, there are really three issues to overcome in the classifieds (as I see it).

The first is the idea that individuals can simply sign up and and begin posting ads without any intention of participating in OVAS itself. This does not sit well with the current exec and a number of members.

The second involves individuals running a business under the guise of posting ads as a hobbyist. This also does not sit well with the exec and a number of members.

The third involves individuals abusing the system by multilisting, reposting, bumping and generally trying to circumvent the rules put in place. This is generally frowned upon by everyone.

The minimum post idea works on some sites because they have manpower to police it. But you only have to spend some time on those forums to realize how many people are posting simply to run up their count. Imagine having to review every post to determine if it constitutes a real post. It's a bad idea (for this site) and will only make matters worse as people start debating "why was my post not counted" etc...

Charging for ads will not work in any shape or form. Lets face it, if there's already intense objection from some individuals to having to pay $20 to support the club, there's no way they're going to want to pay to post ads.

I believe that the majority of ad posters are genuine, well intentioned hobbyists and I believe that the classifieds should be reserved for those members and non-members who are respectful and follow the rules. Those who don't are banned. OVAS is extremely tolerant of bad behaviour, to a fault sometimes.

The classifieds are a privilege and should be treated as such.

110g saltwater/reef


I was walking down the street and a man was hammering on a roof top and he called me a Paranoid Little Weirdo. . . in morse code.

Hookup

Andre, you and I met for a few hours and it was a pretty good time.  I wish you well and always read you posts closely as after our brief encounter I have a lot of respect for you.

I do hope that you continue to work in the middle ground as you often seem to do as this site needs people like you with an open mind.

Darth

Quote from: ajm1961 on February 24, 2013, 04:48:25 PM
If we were to charge $5 for x number of ads, doesn't that take care of a nominal fee for the service? I realize that it isn't proportional to the selling price, but it will average out I think. The fee for selling items at the mini-auctions and the Giant Auction varies between 10-40% - so the online classified ends up being a bargain at the suggested price.
Just my perspective.
while I get why the auction cost so much to sell there (personally 40% is a ridiculous amount to take from a sale) I don't know there is no solution here, it seems the execs want it one way members want it another so its a stalemate =(

veron

Seriously closing the classifieds might be a good Idea, Everyone knows how to post on USED OTTAWA and KIJJII
Let them deal with the headaches. If a member pm's someone about gear then thats okay to. Ovas will not be responsible. We can get back to the hobby. 8)

Stussi613

Quote from: Hookup on February 24, 2013, 04:00:18 PM
I thought it was 100% unanimous that the exec agreed the classified would be closed.

Has this changed?  - would an Exec weight in?

The previous exec voted to close the classifieds, the current exec is unanimous in not having a strong desire to re-open them.

All that being said, the points and suggestions being brought forward are being heard.

Quote from: Darth on February 24, 2013, 06:10:12 PM
I don't know there is no solution here, it seems the execs want it one way members want it another so its a stalemate =(

Speaking for myself, as a member of the exec and from my personal opinion, lots of the people who want the classifieds re-opened are the same ones who have been posting about it since September.  It's a mixed group with most of the people pushing for it being non-members of the club. Before I joined the exec there were a couple of non-scientific polls done that indicated that the majority of respondents wanted them re-opened, both in the members forum and the regular forum. I bolded the term respondents because there was no way to judge who was responding in the regular forum and the majority who responded in the members area were out of a relatively small sampling of the membership.

The way I see it we don't really know what the card carrying membership wants, and I hate to be blunt but I'm not really interested in dealing with all the issues of moderation that will entail because 12 out of 16 of the people who answered the poll want them re-opened.  In my mind a majority vote to re-open the classifieds needs 2/3 of the members to vote yes, and that means 118 of the 177 members coming to a meeting with their cards and putting their hands up.

Now I'm not saying that we can't find another way to handle the situation (some great points have been brought up that we need to follow up on), just that its going to take more than the same old argument to change my mind.

Stuart
I haz reef tanks.

Feivel

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 25, 2013, 01:29:04 AM
  In my mind a majority vote to re-open the classifieds needs 2/3 of the members to vote yes, and that means 118 of the 177 members coming to a meeting with their cards and putting their hands up.

How can you claim such a thing when you barely have 20 active members? mind you im not one to watch the attendance numbers, but you should know as well as i do that that will NEVER EVER happen.

a good example is the canadian election .....

(I really dont mean to add oil to the pot)
On a second note, im pretty sure that poll we did do a few months back, had an option if you were a member, non member, exec, and for the most part it was paying members that voted to open the forum. out of those members, how many did not see that post? how many read it and found it of no interest and continued on? Im not sayng open the classifieds as you have stated some valid points on moderation, im just stating that the information you ask for has already been provided. And again as Darth has stated time and time over, you "Exec" Seem to glance your eyes right over this info nd come back to the few that have ruined it. How about keeping a 3 per person post and have them expire like kijiji, no editing allowed, MAX of 3 for whatever time period. so if you post an item, your slot is locked for 2 weeks. you post 3 thats it no more. If kijiji can do it, im sure the webmaster can figure something out similar to that format.

On a second note, to try and involve the club, you can always try andwork on a more personal socialisation. Find out what other peoples are doing with other hobbies and their work. Maybee others could see interest in other thing or exp. Say like myself. How many people here know that im a automobile mechanic, Im CWB 4G Certified and i pour concrete for a living??? not many, but if someone knew this, and was looking for some services, or help in these trades, i would love to give them a hand. Life isnt JUST about the fishy's :)  Try it out :) Call it the local Skills Page :) by knowing the member, and not just his tank, could help socialize ovas and get more people to the meetings cause they will enjoy to come down sit and chit chat, listen to the speakers, they will know that there are 4-5-10-15-50 people that he knows that will greet him with a smile, he will feel more comfortable knowing more people than just being a stand alone sailor. and i think this is the BIGGEST killer these days with all the social electronic media, people are becoming more and more "sketched-out" i guess about large crowds of unknown people, even if these people are the ones you talk with everyday, you still feel "out of place" on that note, maybee its just the overall lack of salties to attract the other salties to the meetings because we all know you guys try your best to make us happy. I now realise who ret talbot is, I did want to attend the meeting,But i missed the meeting for whatever reason, Mostly because i thought he was a well known photographer, but now, when i read his artices in Coral Magazine im like HEY.... SHOOT.... i missed that seminar, now today i kick myself, but back when i had 3 months experince.... well ..... cant say the same lol .... anyways

Just like our tanks, we can put band aids all day long but untill we find the actual root of the problem, the problem will keep comming back. and i dont believe it relies on the classifieds, as when i was a new member i would come to ovas to read, and read, and read and when i was done, i would read some more. i didnt care much about the classifieds, Yes they were a definate BONUS, but there were always great deals on kijiji.  other than loving all the tank shut downs at the time and all the friendly, knowledgfull members that would take the time to read my plea for help and suggest a few remedies were very humble to the hobby. In this light i have been a reefer for 3 years, and as you can see in the updates pictures, looking REALLY nice and i have no trouble sharing my experience with others .... the best part: FOR FREE :) WOW who does that these days anyways??? lol

Anyways guys, have a great time and enjoy your hobby, fresh or salt, and thanks for sticking around. Thanks for being there, for me, for us, for others and for the new guys

CHEERS to OVAS

rgauvin

hybrid rule, let forum members with more then X Posts, make for sale adds.

A) It rewards active ovas members (something I'd ASSUME the executive wants, activity)
B) If someone abuses the classifieds area (as people indicate has been done in the past) Ban their account. Yes, they can create a new account, but it has zero posts, so they cannot post for sale Items

JetJumper

Quote from: rgauvin on February 25, 2013, 08:19:27 AM
hybrid rule, let forum members with more then X Posts, make for sale adds.

A) It rewards active ovas members (something I'd ASSUME the executive wants, activity)
B) If someone abuses the classifieds area (as people indicate has been done in the past) Ban their account. Yes, they can create a new account, but it has zero posts, so they cannot post for sale Items


This is a pretty effective rule to control a lot of the issues.
.: JetJumper's Zone :.

bergenm

#197
---Deleted---
Michael

Stussi613

Quote from: Feivel on February 25, 2013, 06:13:28 AM
On a second note, im pretty sure that poll we did do a few months back, had an option if you were a member, non member, exec, and for the most part it was paying members that voted to open the forum. out of those members, how many did not see that post? how many read it and found it of no interest and continued on?

That's exactly what I'm saying, the poll had options for people to pick from and anyone could have picked anything.  Someone who was not an exec, and not a member of the club, put down that they were an exec and wanted the classifieds open.  My post was intended to be a bit tongue in cheek.  You're right, were not gong to get 118 members to a meeting, but its going to take more than a few people answering an uncontrolled poll to make me think the membership wants a change.

Quote
On a second note, to try and involve the club, you can always try andwork on a more personal socialisation. Find out what other peoples are doing with other hobbies and their work. Maybee others could see interest in other thing or exp. Say like myself. How many people here know that im a automobile mechanic, Im CWB 4G Certified and i pour concrete for a living??? not many, but if someone knew this, and was looking for some services, or help in these trades, i would love to give them a hand. Life isnt JUST about the fishy's :)  Try it out :) Call it the local Skills Page :) by knowing the member, and not just his tank, could help socialize ovas and get more people to the meetings cause they will enjoy to come down sit and chit chat, listen to the speakers, they will know that there are 4-5-10-15-50 people that he knows that will greet him with a smile, he will feel more comfortable knowing more people than just being a stand alone sailor. and i think this is the BIGGEST killer these days with all the social electronic media, people are becoming more and more "sketched-out" i guess about large crowds of unknown people, even if these people are the ones you talk with everyday, you still feel "out of place" on that note, maybee its just the overall lack of salties to attract the other salties to the meetings because we all know you guys try your best to make us happy.

We tried to implement a social aspect at the meetings this year, but maybe your idea of getting people introduced to each other in a more social aspect online will help to make them more comfortable coming to the meetings.  Thanks for your suggestion!

Quote
CHEERS to OVAS

I agree with this 150%

Stuart
I haz reef tanks.

charlie

Quote from: Stussi613 on February 25, 2013, 03:18:06 PM
That's exactly what I'm saying, the poll had options for people to pick from and anyone could have picked anything.  Someone who was not an exec, and not a member of the club, put down that they were an exec and wanted the classifieds open.  My post was intended to be a bit tongue in cheek.  You're right, were not gong to get 118 members to a meeting, but its going to take more than a few people answering an uncontrolled poll to make me think the membership wants a change.

We tried to implement a social aspect at the meetings this year, but maybe your idea of getting people introduced to each other in a more social aspect online will help to make them more comfortable coming to the meetings.  Thanks for your suggestion!

I agree with this 150%

Stuart
Just a not of history, it use to be possible to get over a 100 people consistently @ meetings with standing room only, hence the reason we were asked to find a bigger venue, because we were breaking fire codes @ Jack Purcell.
Regards

charlie

Another thing that puzzles me - I`m impressed by the # of post in this thread, why are you guys not posting in the freshwater & saltwater forums to help other hobbyist?
Regards

Darth

Quote from: charlie on February 25, 2013, 03:36:38 PM
Another thing that puzzles me - I`m impressed by the # of post in this thread, why are you guys not posting in the freshwater & saltwater forums to help other hobbyist?
Regards
I don't recall seeing any questiions that went unanswered

FocusFin

#202
Quote from: charlie on February 25, 2013, 03:36:38 PM
Another thing that puzzles me - I`m impressed by the # of post in this thread, why are you guys not posting in the freshwater & saltwater forums to help other hobbyist?

I gave up giving advice because (my advice) was generally ignored unless it was what the person wanted to hear. I decided, why make the effort trying to help someone when they just end up doing what they want in the end anyways.

Maybe it's different on the freshwater side.
110g saltwater/reef


I was walking down the street and a man was hammering on a roof top and he called me a Paranoid Little Weirdo. . . in morse code.

Cheebs

I think some of the comments here may be a little harsh... I've always enjoyed reading the threads in saltwater, and I feel like most questions get addressed in a pleasant manner with thanks given. There are always exceptions of course, but don't give up because of a couple misfires!

FocusFin

#204
Quote from: Chubs on February 25, 2013, 04:31:27 PM
I think some of the comments here may be a little harsh... I've always enjoyed reading the threads in saltwater, and I feel like most questions get addressed in a pleasant manner with thanks given. There are always exceptions of course, but don't give up because of a couple misfires!

You're right, I shouldn't have generalized so I've edited my post to reflect only my experiences.

Maybe my advice wasn't very good  :D
110g saltwater/reef


I was walking down the street and a man was hammering on a roof top and he called me a Paranoid Little Weirdo. . . in morse code.

charlie

Quote from: Darth on February 25, 2013, 03:52:08 PM
I don't recall seeing any questiions that went unanswered
Darth you may want to revert to post # 1 in this thread.
Regards

Greatwhite

Quote from: charlie on February 25, 2013, 03:36:38 PM
Another thing that puzzles me - I`m impressed by the # of post in this thread, why are you guys not posting in the freshwater & saltwater forums to help other hobbyist?
Regards

There is probably nothing exciting happening with anyone's tanks to share. That's why this thread started so innocently and went straight downhill. People are bored.

But as Darth said - the few posts in the salt section have been handled to completion. :)

Jimbo

#207
Quote from: Stussi613 on February 25, 2013, 01:29:04 AM
The way I see it we don't really know what the card carrying membership wants, and I hate to be blunt but I'm not really interested in dealing with all the issues of moderation that will entail because 12 out of 16 of the people who answered the poll want them re-opened.  In my mind a majority vote to re-open the classifieds needs 2/3 of the members to vote yes, and that means 118 of the 177 members coming to a meeting with their cards and putting their hands up.

Just to add my two cents worth...

According to the clubs Constitution, it only takes 3 members in good standing to request the constitution be changed:
1. To amend or repeal this Constitution or any part of it, it shall be necessary that the proposed amendment be presented in writing signed by at least three members in good standing.

2. The proposed amendment shall be read at the next regular meeting and voted on at that time.

3. The affirmative vote of the majority of all members in attendance shall be required for the adoption of an amendment to this constitution.


If members really want to bring the "classifieds issue" to a vote, then I would suggest they follow the procedure as outlined above.

For your information, I believe this procedure was used in the January 2013 meeting to change the membership price based the date a member joined.

Greatwhite

The majority of people complaining about the classifieds are not Ovas members...  There is nothing there about non-members making changes to policies/constitutions. 

Also, getting something brought up at a meeting doesn't guarantee that any changes will happen. It sounds like the exec team is set against opening up the classifieds, and they inevitably have final say...  It is simply too time consuming to keep the classifieds open to everyone.

Darth

#209
Quote from: charlie on February 25, 2013, 05:39:27 PM
Darth you may want to revert to post # 1 in this thread.
Regards
Yes please show me one thread where someone had asked for advice that went ignored. Please , you can't do it and the OP of this thread that u pointed out, I believe is getting his wish, just look at this thread it is 10 pages long this is the most active thread  that forum has seen in months. The members paid and non-paid have always helped people with their questions or issues. So perhaps you are seeing things that I don't. I believe your question or concern was a bit off kilter and not sure where u came up with this thought. So please feel free to prove me wrong , perhaps someone's need fell through the cracks, but I highly doubt it

Hookup

Maybe the project manager in me is speaking, but I see absolutely no actions that are being confirmed or taken as a result of this thread.  Just some 250 posts, and no decisions and/or actions/next-steps.

Greatwhite

...  And what's worse, the arguments are being fueled by (what can be perceived as) snarky comments from the exec body -- including the president.

If nothing is going to come out of this conversation, then it seems to me that this conversation needs to end so we can all move on with our lives, no?

Darth

Quote from: Hookup on February 25, 2013, 08:12:10 PM
Maybe the project manager in me is speaking, but I see absolutely no actions that are being confirmed or taken as a result of this thread.  Just some 250 posts, and no decisions and/or actions/next-steps.

Quote from: Greatwhite on February 25, 2013, 08:23:42 PM
...  And what's worse, the arguments are being fueled by (what can be perceived as) snarky comments from the exec body -- including the president.

If nothing is going to come out of this conversation, then it seems to me that this conversation needs to end so we can all move on with our lives, no?
I agree with both these statements, the only exec so far that has tried to at least listen as been stu, but it is going to come down to again thanks for all your input we will take into advisement, and then be done, the request has been made (by me) to keep the members in the loop, so it as it has been said before it is going to be an us vs them attitude that I would like to say stems from both sides, but it seems in my opinion that execs have the it's my ball and we will play the way I want to play attitude towards it but thanks for coming out anyway *shrugs*

charlie

#213
Quote from: Greatwhite on February 25, 2013, 08:23:42 PM
...  And what's worse, the arguments are being fueled by (what can be perceived as) snarky comments from the exec body -- including the president.

If nothing is going to come out of this conversation, then it seems to me that this conversation needs to end so we can all move on with our lives, no?
Greatwhite, your key word in that statement is-"what can be perceived as snarky comments from the exec body -- including the president".

I can assure you my comments  are not meant to be snarky, it`s just at times someone has to chip in with a different, i tend not to respond to many topics for concern that my style can cause that very comment.
I have followed every post in this thread & agree 100% with your input, unfortunately it`s hard to stay quiet as a member ( not a President) when you read callus remarks made by some that openly states they will never be a member of the club but still insist on telling the volunteer Execs. how they should run the club.
My personal opinion ( as along time member) is that there is a clear mis understanding of  what OVAS is & is measured against other organisations that is not what OVAS is.This is not to say they are not some very good suggestions made by a few & we as an Exec. has noted them.
Regards Errol

Darth

Quote from: charlie on February 26, 2013, 07:52:30 AM

I have followed every post in this thread & agree 100% with your input, unfortunately it`s hard to stay quiet as a member ( not a President) when you read callus remarks made by some that openly states they will never be a member of the club but still insist on telling the volunteer Execs. how they should run the club.
My personal opinion ( as along time member) is that there is a clear mis understanding of  what OVAS is & is measured against other organisations that is not what OVAS is.This is not to say they are not some very good suggestions made by a few & we as an Exec. has noted them.
Regards Errol
in regards to this, perhaps those people who  claim they would never be a member would change their minds if they saw some change here, any type of movement.
As I understand how this "club" works is the paying member has no say on how the "club" functions, now of course they can make any suggestion they want, but end of the day it's the execs who "vote" and decide how the club is run. So in reality its up to a few to tell the masses how its going to work. I love the 'we have heard the suggestions and noted them" I use this tatics with my kids when they want something I say "we'll see" it keeps them from asking while I already know what they want is not gonna happen, I get the same feeling here, its like please suggest all you want, its all being noted (but the reality is the execs like the way it is now, and its not gonna change) I get the execs volunteer their time to do things for the club, and its been done this way for how ever many years, but the last few years, it has not been working. Have the execs ever asked what the club wants? What do its members want from it's club. The response is always the same, if you want to suggest things come to the meetings, well unfortunately that may not be an option for most. It has been stated before, the face to face thing is becoming a dinosaur, yet the execs all insist this is the way it is to be done (yet it is clearly not working) It has been said over and over that the forum is not the club, yet it is the in my opinion the main part of this club with out it, this club would disappear in a heartbeat in my opinion. And I stated even through all this I have not seen any exec ask what the club wants. We hear how memberships are up from last year, but how many of those were bought by sponsors? How many were bought when you had the big push and were at the retailers, and out of those sold how many showed up to the forum or the meetings?

You say "there is a clear misunderstanding of what ovas is and & is measured against other organizations this is not what OVAS is" so please elaborate and explain to me at least what is ovas being measured against and what is OVAS since there is so much misunderstanding, as a long time member and president please clear this up for me, because I am obviously confused.

Hookup


I wanted to re-extract what you posted as I think it deserves further highlight as it is, IMO critical.

Quote from: charlie on February 26, 2013, 07:52:30 AM
there is a clear mis understanding of  what OVAS is

So there are no miss understandings, would you clarify for this thread. I know you've done this a few times before but its not sticking... so for benefit of this thread it would be good.  I've stated my interpretation, as a non-member and ex-member, (and possible future member again for that matter as you never know what the future holds for OVAS).


charlie

#216
Quote from: Darth on February 26, 2013, 09:36:20 AM
in regards to this, perhaps those people who  claim they would never be a member would change their minds if they saw some change here, any type of movement.
As I understand how this "club" works is the paying member has no say on how the "club" functions, now of course they can make any suggestion they want, but end of the day it's the execs who "vote" and decide how the club is run. So in reality its up to a few to tell the masses how its going to work. I love the 'we have heard the suggestions and noted them" I use this tatics with my kids when they want something I say "we'll see" it keeps them from asking while I already know what they want is not gonna happen, I get the same feeling here, its like please suggest all you want, its all being noted (but the reality is the execs like the way it is now, and its not gonna change) I get the execs volunteer their time to do things for the club, and its been done this way for how ever many years, but the last few years, it has not been working. Have the execs ever asked what the club wants? What do its members want from it's club. The response is always the same, if you want to suggest things come to the meetings, well unfortunately that may not be an option for most. It has been stated before, the face to face thing is becoming a dinosaur, yet the execs all insist this is the way it is to be done (yet it is clearly not working) It has been said over and over that the forum is not the club, yet it is the in my opinion the main part of this club with out it, this club would disappear in a heartbeat in my opinion. And I stated even through all this I have not seen any exec ask what the club wants. We hear how memberships are up from last year, but how many of those were bought by sponsors? How many were bought when you had the big push and were at the retailers, and out of those sold how many showed up to the forum or the meetings?

You say "there is a clear misunderstanding of what ovas is and & is measured against other organizations this is not what OVAS is" so please elaborate and explain to me at least what is ovas being measured against and what is OVAS since there is so much misunderstanding, as a long time member and president please clear this up for me, because I am obviously confused.
Darth , i have no itnetnions of getting into a month long debate, you live very close to me & always welcome to pop over or we can go to the timmies & chat one on one, i can learn from you first hand & you can learn from me.
Reaosn for not getting into a debate in this thread or others similar is quuite simple anything i say will be easily scewed as the "President/Exec." ande most probably never taken as a long standing member with a passion for OVAS the club.
I keep alluding to the 'CLUB" for very good reason.
There is also a good reason that one person from the exec. speaks on behalf of the club & exec on this forum.
See Hookup`s post on his interpretation of what OVAS is, i`ve said it several times.
Regards

Greatwhite

There's a reason that I said that the comments can be perceived in a certain way.  I know all too well how emails can be misread and the tone can be misconstrued into something that was completely unintentional.  I also know that after getting nailed over and over on something that sometimes a response can be sent to hastily and that "snarkiness" IS there.  Trust me - I've gotten in trouble for this MANY times over the years.

My comment was not meant to be one sided, but I do have to ask -was this random, unprovoked post necessary?

QuoteAnother thing that puzzles me - I`m impressed by the # of post in this thread, why are you guys not posting in the freshwater & saltwater forums to help other hobbyist?

There have been questions in the salt section that had not gone unanswered, which is what Darth said.  So you directed him at post 1 in this thread - which has been answered to death....

Don't get me wrong.  There were times that it saw that non-members (and some members) were pushing buttons to get a reaction to use against the club...  I've seen it, as have others.  Unfortunately, in positions of authority, your hands are tied and you can't react the same as a standard OVAS member - or a forum only user.  Basically, what I've learned over the years is that when you're "the boss", you're not allowed to have voice own opinion - because you are speaking for EVERYONE. If you do want to speak up "as a standard member", sometimes it's handy to have a separate account that is not tagged as "President" so that you can speak your mind without the weight of the club riding on your words. (sometimes a little anonymity is a good thing)

I went so far as to try get this thread (and others) back on track to be productive, only to have it derailed again by people on either "side".

It's been said many times that the forum is NOT the club.  The forum is a service being provided BY the club, for the benefit of people in the area who need help, and might be enticed to join the club after seeing how helpful the people here are and seeing the benefit of being a member.  Being a forum user does not mean you have a say in how the club is run, but you probably should be allowed to comment on how the forum is set up (within reason).  Asking to have classifieds opened is not telling you to change in how the club works.

I've suggested (as a paid member who doesn't use the classifieds much) that if people argue about the classifieds system, just remove it...  Another solution is - open it right up, and then refer to this entire conversation when the posts in there are running rampant and people complain that their ads are on page 18 after 2hrs. Basically, don't waste the volunteer execs time moderating them...

I think that all some members are looking for is an acknowledgement of the issues that have been brought up here, and assurance that they would be taken into consideration at the next exec meeting, as Hookup suggested - with Action Items... and then publicize the results of those Action Items to the members.

In real life, I'm a president/owner of a software consulting company - and there's MANY times nearly every day that I have to smile and nod and keep my own reaction quiet.  "We will take that request into consideration" is tattooed on my forehead...  I'm sure Hookup and others in similar positions have the same...

ajm1961

"We will take that request into consideration"

That's exactly it, but - at least from my part - the consideration for any changes will not happen until after AquaMania. The current exec is fully busy in putting together the biggest event in recent OVAS history (I think the last time we had anything as extensive is probably in the 70s when we last hosted the CAOAC conference).

Personally I do not think any changes to the classified situation will be made until the next exec is voted in. We're almost done with this season, and quite frankly many of us are barely making it to the finishing line given all the activities we've had to prepare this year, plus all the drama we've had to deal with concerning this policy change.

Please do not take this as "we're not listening" and that we're not prepared to make any changes. I personally want to take some time as we move towards the elections in May to figure out some options that may help heal some of the divisions in this club and move forward in a positive way with both club members and forum members. Your input will be considered, and likely discussed at different levels in the club.

Thanks all for your passion to the hobby, your participation on the forum, and for your ideas to make OVAS a better club and forum.

Sincerely,
Andre
SHARE YOUR PASSION FOR THE HOBBY!

Stussi613

I'm running late for a meeting, so I'm going to be brief here.

There are some excellent suggestions in this thread, and we intend to review them and hopefully make some changes based on them.

The issue we have right now is two fold:

1.  Time.  We're trying to pull off the first two day event the club has hosted in years in less than a month. There are myriad issues to deal with, and confirm, and we have an obligation to ensure we don't bankrupt the club doing this. We're bringing in sponsors, speakers, out of town vendors...confirming the venue layout...the list goes on.  After tonight the exec will have spent 12 hours working behind the scenes on club issues and AquaMania and 4 hours on the monthly meeting (last night).

2.  Resources.  Quite a few execs are doing double duty right now. Errol posted the recent resignations from the exec in another thread. Thankfully our Secretary had a change of heart and returned, but we are still stretched.  Many of the questions/suggestions we need to look at from a website functionality standpoint need to be looked into by the webmistress, who is also the program director, and relatively new to the website software.

If people are expecting instant change I'm sorry to let them down. Our efforts are focused on AquaMania right now, and will be until April.  That being said I had a long chat with Jimbo last night and there are some things we'd like to set up a committee for (his suggestion for a resource section is the main one).  Some of the other ideas presented here need fleshing out, and I'm hoping we can get the people who presented them to come forward with plans on how to action them so the exec can just review them and decide (after consultation with the membership) on how to proceed.

Stuart
I haz reef tanks.

az

bad economy=less money=less new jobs=less new hobbyists=less new forum members=less questions=slower forum  

older forum members dont post, its the new members that do, and lately lot less new hobbyists....FACT


free classified in this situation will help.  try it. get Darth and Greatwhite to moderate it and protect it from abuse, I think they will do an awsome job.

try it, if it does improve just a little we all win, if it dosent at least we know we tried. if you think that will result in less membership/funds  I suggest get that back and more by increasing sponsorship levels/fee etc.  






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bergenm

I think everything has been said that needs to be said... Can we lock this thread and put these issues to rest for the time being...
Michael

Greatwhite

Quote from: az on February 26, 2013, 11:07:41 AM
free classified in this situation will help.  try it. get Darth and Greatwhite to moderate it and protect it from abuse, I think they will do an awsome job.

What I suggested was either kill the classifieds, or let them run unmoderated. :)  The execs are far too busy to babysit them, and it shouldn't be consuming their time with all of the pressing club things that are going on with Aquamania.  Darth had already volunteered to take the moderation job on, but was shot down.

Anyways...  Back to work! :)

Shawn84

I'm locking this up for now. Let us focus on AquaMania. Its a great event and everyone should be pump for it. :)
A bunch a fishes.....
A bunch a tanks...........