Multiple Tanks and CO2

[Kelly]

I was talking to Jason at Critter Jungle today and I'm thinking 2 planted 24" cubes one with shrimp, celestial's and another small fish. One with my rams and some mid schooling fish and the last 24" cube as a cichlid tank. Still trying to wrap my mind around buying 3 new tanks, thank God I have an understanding wife who is not trying to convince me to get out of the hobby.

I would need to get rid of some of my fish, 5 large and very beautiful Bosemani Rainbowfish, 3 nice large Yellow Rainbowfish, 2 very nice medium Turquoise Rainbowfish, 6 large Congo Tetra's, 4 large Siamese Algae Eaters, 3 large White Spotted Pleco's, one medium/large very nice Red Tail Shark and a couple very beautiful female Purple Kribensis.

What to do, what to do???

[lucius]

Three tanks means three heaters, three filters and possibly three CO2 regulators with CO2 tanks.

[Kelly]

I already have all of it except the tri-regulator CO2 splitter and I priced that out at $65.00 so it's not really an issue.

[wolfiewill]

..... the tri-regulator CO2 splitter and I priced that out at $65.00 so it's not really an issue.

So where are you getting your splitter, and what kind is it? I have several..... three actually that I can't use 'cause they don't work. I have one which does. But it didn't cost 65 bucks!

[Kelly]

I priced it at Critter Jungle, not sure of the brand but it comes in a silver box with what looks like some sort of  Asian writing on it.

[wolfiewill]

Does it look like one of these?

[Kalemh]

I think the company your talking about Kelly is DICI

[Kelly]

Does it look like one of these?

It looks like the bottom one but each cylinder is a different colour.

[lucius]

Critter Jungle carries parts from DICI so it's probably a DICI six way splitter.

[Kelly]

Another question, since I have an external reactor if I use a 3 way splitter I would have to buy 2 more reactors or cheaper defusers?

[exv152]

Another question, since I have an external reactor if I use a 3 way splitter I would have to buy 2 more reactors or cheaper defusers?

Yes. Do you mean one of these? This is an inline diffuser. Either way (reactor or diffusor) you'll need one for each feed.

[wolfiewill]

It looks like the bottom one but each cylinder is a different colour.

Why don't you borrow mine to see if it'll work for you? I found it a pain and haven't used in in years. I've got spare parts as well.

[charlie]

FYI , there is more to multiple co2 feed from one regulator than just splitting.
The method of dissolving the gas as well as the regulators max outpu is importantt.
For example, if you are using the inline diffuser as posted by exv152, you will require a output of around 25 -35 PSI  for that diffuser to function, with that in mind if your regulator can only deliver max 30 PSI, you won`t be able to feed 2 or 3 tanks.
Regards

[Kelly]

Why don't you borrow mine to see if it'll work for you? I found it a pain and haven't used in in years. I've got spare parts as well.

Thanks for the offer, it'll be a little while until I get set up again so maybe I'll get in touch with you when it gets around set up time if you don't mind.

[Kelly]

FYI , there is more to multiple co2 feed from one regulator than just splitting.
The method of dissolving the gas as well as the regulators max outpu is importantt.
For example, if you are using the inline diffuser as posted by exv152, you will require a output of around 25 -35 PSI  for that diffuser to function, with that in mind if your regulator can only deliver max 30 PSI, you won`t be able to feed 2 or 3 tanks.
Regards

I only plan on planting 2 of the 3 tanks, the 3rd one will be a cichlid tank with a rock wall. (Maybe)

[charlie]

Do you  know the maximum output of your regulator? Better still which regulator do you have?
Have you decided how you are going to dissolve the co2 into the water column.
Regards

[Kelly]

I have a Carbon Doser regulator with an external reactor and a pinpoint PH controller.

[charlie]

I have a Carbon Doser regulator with an external reactor and a pinpoint PH controller.

I have no personal experience with the Carbon doser, but if memory serves me i think it1s maximum output pressure is under 30PSI??
If it is, passive reactors are your only workable method of getting the gas into the water column.
The next issue ,is  with the use of the PH controller, it will only be capable of controlling one tank and not 2.
Regards

[exv152]

Charlie is right. The "carbondoser co2" brand regulator will not work with any atomic style diffuser, and much less if the feed is being divided into more than one feed. That's because the regulator has preset working pressure which can't be adjusted. All atomic style diffusers have a cracking pressure of approximately 30psi. The regulator you have won't come close to that working pressure. It's similar to the Milwaukee which operates around 10-20 psi.

You can research online for a DIY "Rex Grigg" style reactor which requires virtually no pressure to diffuse co2. Something like this...

[wolfiewill]

All atomic style diffusers have a cracking pressure of approximately 30psi. The regulator you have won't come close to that working pressure. It's similar to the Milwaukee which operates around 10-20 psi.

With all due respect, I must strongly disagree with exv152. I have in use now several CO2 'kits'. These include 4 Milwaukee kits - all running at 40 psi. So in this vein, perhaps I should weigh in. I've had several discussions lately with people about to purchase CO2 kits for the first time, and so would like to relate my experiences with the following kits. I have an AquaMedic, Milwaukees (x4), an AquariumPlants.com, a custom built, and a GLA 4 counter kits running now.

The Milwaukee kits are just fine. They are usually the cheapest, they run well up to 60 psi working pressure (my experience only), have a line pressure control valve, and do not fail any more often than any others. I've had none fail for no apparent reason, the other two which did fail, did so due to a faulty check valve or had the check valve removed by an inexperienced owner. Both these two failed because the solenoid rusted out.

The AquaMedic are very reliable, and I've never had one fail over the many years I've had them (10ish?). I have two - the second one is unused at them moment. There are two problems with this kit. Firstly, there is no line pressure control so the pressure goes to what it needs to go to to function. The one in use now runs an in-tank Fluval diffuser at 22.5 psi. And, secondly, with only a needle valve to control the bubble count, the delay between setting the needle valve and a stable bubble count is as long as an hour. So when setting it up, without a pH controller, it is a real hassle. I use a pH controller.

The AquariumPlants.com kits are amoung the best I have. I've had two, and they are expensive. A bubble counter is not necessary as it is electronic and can be set by a dial very accurately. The problem is they don't provide a line pressure beyond 15 psi (but I've got one running an in-tank Fluval diffuser when I bury the needle beyond the 15 psi mark). I've had one for over a decade now, the other one's solenoid failed, also I suspect due to a faulty cv.

The GLA version is also among the best I have. It feeds four bubble counters, which each feed four separate in-line Atomic or UP Aqua diffusers (like exv's picture). I can't address the accuracy of the bubble counters or their stability 'cause it feeds one tank and the diffusers are in series and are maxed out - I can't count the bubbles. This is also very expensive, and given the exchange rate on the USD, and the duty that must be paid for any of the GLA products, plus shipping and handling, this is too much for the value at the moment ime.

I must also address the dual valve issue: I have no dual valve kits, and I've never had a CO2-end-of-tank-dump. I've seen end-of-tank-dumps in other peoples tanks, but never in one of my tanks. I also use pH controllers, which may be partly the reason why I've had no issues.

I hope this isn't too wordy. I wanted to address this issue for some time now 'cause I've done a lot of trials with different 'systems', singles, doubles, heptuples (sic) - you name it. I'm going to show my new CO2 system on my 330 g tank at the plantaholics get together. So that would be a good time to discuss this issue more fully. Cheers to all who read this all the way through.

[Kelly]

Thanks Wolfiewill,

I tried to find out the max output pressure of the Carbondoser on the Aquarium Plants site but they don't list it under technical specs.

[tanksalot360]

I've been happy with CO2art's manifold (5 needle valves) ~50CAD shipped with in-tank diffuser/bubble counters (eBay) ~9CAD ea. I can't comment much on the pressure, but I know that the regulator is set >30psi to compensate for additional outputs- running 3/5 atm.
The diffusers produce very fine bubbles, they may not be as efficient as something inline, but It's good enough for me.

[charlie]

Thanks Wolfiewill,

I tried to find out the max output pressure of the Carbondoser on the Aquarium Plants site but they don't list it under technical specs.

Your max output pressure is 15 PSI.
The failures of the Milwaukee type regulators of the world are well documented !
Fluval co2 diffusers will work with even DIY sugar & yeast generators.
It does not matter what regulator you use with a PH controller, the regulator is  just needed for it`s intended purpose to down regulate the working pressure from 3000PSI to a workable pressure typically anywhere from 10 PSI to 60 PSI, the needle valve quality and precision is not important, in fact one can argue you don`t a needle valve with the use of a PH controller.
The GLA pro 1 regulators are no special assembly & can be easily replicated  with the same quality regulator ( Beer primary co2 reg) the Fabco NV 55-18 needle valve which was redesigned by a gentleman at Fabco air to utilize the modular design after he observed how it was done by Orlando at GLA, which is how everyone does it with manifolds, same with the solenoid, it was a regular Fabco solenoid recoiled for lower wattage to reduce the heat factor .
At the end of the day , none of this addresses the issue faced by Kelly  - supply 2 tanks with CO2 from one co2 regulator set up.
If it was me i would sell the Carbon Doser you have now, buy or build yourself a unit with 2 or 3 needle valves output
But that is just my opinion.
I hope you come out this months meeting, you might just be tempted to take a different approach.
Regards

[charlie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjxEQdxADRk

[wolfiewill]

This discussion on the Planted Tank dot net website may also be appropriate, and perhaps informative, too.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1121290-help-me-assemble-my-co2-regulator.html?utm_content=thumb2

[exv152]

With all due respect, I must strongly disagree with exv152. I have in use now several CO2 'kits'. These include 4 Milwaukee kits - all running at 40 psi. So in this vein, perhaps I should weigh in. I've had several discussions lately with people about to purchase CO2 kits for the first time, and so would like to relate my experiences with the following kits. I have an AquaMedic, Milwaukees (x4), an AquariumPlants.com, a custom built, and a GLA 4 counter kits running now.

Question for you Wolfie, how many of your milwaukees, aquamedics or carbondoser regulators do you have running with co2 splitters? And, how many of those co2 split feeds do you have atomic diffusers (like in the pic on the 1st pg) attached to those feeds?

I personally don't buy the entry level regulators for several reasons. But I do have a Cornelius single stage regulator (same as the body of the carbondoser) and I can tell you it will barely handle splitting the co2 feed into 3, much less 6, ways. Then try adding an atomic diffuser to those co2 feeds and you won't see a single bubble come out. Guaranteed. The guage for the working pressure may read a max of 60psi but that doesn't mean it can be set to 60, or that it's reliably delivering 60psi.

[wolfiewill]

Question for you Wolfie, how many of your milwaukees, aquamedics or carbondoser regulators do you have running with co2 splitters?

None.

And, how many of those co2 split feeds do you have atomic diffusers (like in the pic on the 1st pg) attached to those feeds?

When I tried them I was using in tank Fluval types of diffusers and the Milwaukee kit. I was getting bubbles from all of them, but the control on any one changed over time and each one changed differently. I suspected that the splitter was warming up after the solenoid started to heat up, and the needle valves heated to different degrees depending on the proximity to the solenoid. When I changed the bubble count on one, it effected the count on the others. In those days I was running low bubble counts to achieve pHs in the 6.8 to 6.4 range. I don't think I was making huge demands on it. In hind sight, perhaps the quality of the solenoid could have been better, and so with less heat, perhaps more control.

[exv152]

When I tried them I was using in tank Fluval types of diffusers and the Milwaukee kit. I was getting bubbles from all of them, but the control on any one changed over time and each one changed differently.

That's the whole point, the entry level regulators (like milwaukee, carbondoser, aquatek etc.) are not the best option for splitting co2, and adding atomic diffusers which have higher cracking pressure, this leads to what you described - drifting and fluctuating co2. They're fine if you only have one co2 diffuser like the fluval in-tank diffuser, or rex grigg reactor. But in my experience if you invest in a higher quality regulator like a dual stage, and a quality needle valve/metering valve (Parker, Fabco), then you can raise the working pressure to be able to handle a splitter and a series of atomic diffusers, and you get virtually no drifting or fluctuating.

[wolfiewill]

You're probably right. I never realized there would be a difference. Have you tried a splitter on a higher quality CO2 kit? I know I should know this but I can't remember....

[Kelly]

I'm not following well, you gentlemen are far more advanced in this than I am. I think I understand that my Carbon Doser regulator doesn't have a strong enough output to split. Could I use a 2-way splitter and skip the external reactor and just go with 2 in tank defusers, would it be strong enough to do that? If not I guess I'll have to look into a new regulator, any recommendations?

[exv152]

You're probably right. I never realized there would be a difference. Have you tried a splitter on a higher quality CO2 kit? I know I should know this but I can't remember....

I once tried splitting the co2 feed from a micromatic single stage (good quality single stage btw) and I had a heck of a time trying to balance the two sides. One would be too high while the other too low, and then when I tried adjusting it, it would do the same vice versa. I think had I had a regulator at the time that I can increase the working pressure substantially I probably could've pulled it off. But at lower working pressures (15-40psi) I find the gas tends to choose the path of least resistence. You should definitely look into a good quality dual stage regulator with working pressure in the range of 0-200psi (on the gauge) which really means 0-100psi in max capacity (the WP guages are always designed to go double its actual capacity).

Wolfie - one of these days we're gonna get you over to the dark side of dual stages...lol

I'm not following well, you gentlemen are far more advanced in this than I am. I think I understand that my Carbon Doser regulator doesn't have a strong enough output to split. Could I use a 2-way splitter and skip the external reactor and just go with 2 in tank defusers, would it be strong enough to do that? If not I guess I'll have to look into a new regulator, any recommendations?

You can definitely try splitting it 2 ways. It may work if you're using a passive co2 diffusion method such a DIY reactor. If you're planning something that requires more, like 30+psi (like the atomic inline diffuser in the above pic) you're probably better off just using one feed. Two intank diffusers may or may not work. They're similar to the inline atomic diffuser, but they do have a smaller porous surface, so it may work.  

[exv152]

...just to add to that. I would go with a 1/8" T fitting instead of buying an actual 2-way splitter. It's way cheaper...

[charlie]