Need help with parts for CO2 system

[x-cimo]

I have a CO2 system which I used about 10 yr ago. I stopped using it because my needle valve broke.
My regulator looks fine, I`ve attached pictures at the bottom.
The solenoid valve, seem to have a 1/2in in female output, and I have what look like a 1/4 male to 1/8 female adapter.

I`ve spent sometime online to find what I need, but with little success.

I`m looking for recommendations (with hopefully links where to buy) the following:

1) A very good needle valve (I don`t mind putting the price).
2) Whatever adapter you think I will need
3) 1/8 CO2 tubing
4) Bubble counter
5) A CO2 reactor to place inline with my Eheim 2226 filter water return (12/16mm hoses)

Thank you!!

[lucius]

Check out this recent thread.

http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=60114.0

[charlie]

Hi welcome to OVAS club forum.
[quoteThe solenoid valve, seem to have a 1/2in in female output, and I have what look like a 1/4 male to 1/8 female adapter.
][/quote]
Im not following but that s nothing new  with me 
If the solenoid has a 1/2 inch female port, what is the purpose of the 1/4 to 1/8 reducing bushing?
What do you mean by the needle valve broke?
Regards

[x-cimo]

Hi welcome to OVAS club forum.
[quoteThe solenoid valve, seem to have a 1/2in in female output, and I have what look like a 1/4 male to 1/8 female adapter.
]
Im not following but that s nothing new  with me 
If the solenoid has a 1/2 inch female port, what is the purpose of the 1/4 to 1/8 reducing bushing?
What do you mean by the needle valve broke?
Regards

You're right.

I am myself a little confused about the size 

I went to Canadian tire and found something that screw well in the solenoid. (I've removed the existing bushing).
I guess the size is the size of the internal diameter, that why I got confused.

Nevertheless:

For testing, I bought a 1/8" both ends and it fit perfectly in the solenoid. My existing bushing is 1/8 to what looks like 1/16.

The Needle valve I had was probably too small, and the metal cracked & leaked.  That was the end of it

So looks like I'm looking for parts to attach to a 1/8" female (or male with my new bushing) solenoid.
I will look at the thread posted above. But recommendation with where to buy are appreciated.

Thanks!!

[x-cimo]

The only needle valve I found on the above thread is the Fabco NV55-18. I guess it's a good one?

Funny enough, I found a picture of it, along with what looks like I had 10 yr ago (and broke). It's the gray one in the middle.
According to the page my old bushing is 10/32 to 1/8 which makes sense.

[x-cimo]

Did some research and the Fabco NV55-18 does look like a good valve.

Some advise for the bubble counter, tubing and canister inline diffuser?

Thanks!

[charlie]

The Fabco NV 55-18 is a good valve at a good price point, it`s the same valve used in  the regarded GLA regulator line.
any bubble counter will get the job done, i tend to use in line ones and having redundant check valves between the bubble counter and the needle valve.
For tubing i have come to the conclusion that  good old vinyl airline tubing is good enough and cheap ( change then every 6 months or yearly)
A word of caution with in line diffusers, most of them require a minimum working pressure of 25-30 PSI to function , your regulator is very limited in that regard.
Regards

[x-cimo]

What would you recommend for diffuser? I asked for a inline one, because I read they were the most efficient.

I think the next best type are ceramic ones?  In my old setup, I was using a Hagen Bubble ladder.  It worked Ok, but not great.

Thanks for pointing out: http://greenleafaquariums.com , I had not came across their website, and it looks like they have everything I need except the valve.

This is their diffusers page:

http://greenleafaquariums.com/co2-diffusers.html

" Both of these models require a co2 regulator working pressure at minimum of 30-35psi and will also require the use of co2 pressure rated tubing."

Do you think I'll be ok with my regulator? The second dial range from 10 to 30 CFH (black) and 10 to 20 (red) I'm not sure what the unit is for the red but it say CO2, no mention of PSI... I guess that's why you say my regulator is limited?  I could consider getting the full kit with a regulator.

Thanks!

[exv152]

What would you recommend for diffuser?

What size is your tank. The best diffusion method will vary on what size tank you have. I noticed you said you have an eheim 2226. This would suggest you have a large tank. GLA's diffusers (atomic/inline/bazooka etc diffusions) are all aimed at small to medium sized tanks.

[x-cimo]

My tank size is 77 Galons.

[charlie]

Can you post a better picture of the gauges? , they are dual scale and judging from the red 4,000 on the right gauge it appears that the regulator is under 20 PSI maximum output
If that is so , your option for dissolving the co2 is either a reactor ( which as mentioned is better for your size of tank) or injecting the co2 into some type of power head set up( they are several options for this method) Google.
Personally i would get a more capable regulator given the age of your present one and to a lesser extent, length of time it sat idle.
Regards

[x-cimo]

Two options from green leaf:
$255US
http://greenleafaquariums.com/products/gla-pro-1-co2-regulator.html

$625US ouch
http://greenleafaquariums.com/products/gla-pro-1-ss-co2-regulator-two-stage.html

Is two-stage completely overkill? Price is kinda high.

Other good options?

[exv152]

The GLA regulators are really overpriced IMO. The first is just a single stage and they want $255 USD which works out to $333 CAD not including US tax, shipping, HST/GST, duties etc.

Check these out, they've become a lot more popular in recent years for planted tank hobbyists. https://www.co2art.co.uk/collections/dual-stage-regulators

As for diffusion method, I'd recommend the DIY Rex Grig for a 77g, or as mentioned, some inline diffusers & add some really good circulation pumps to mix the co2.

The regulator you have maxes out WP at 35psi, which really means it's functional range is about half that, not good enough for atomic (porous stone) diffusers.

[charlie]

I agree GLA  is pricey for what you are getting, especially for the Canadian hobbyist.
It's a pity you missed the last club meeting a few weeks ago.
I have 6 completed built 2 stage regulators and non  cost me no way near what GLA is selling their 2 stage units and I'll argue they are better units than GLAD flag ship  unit, but that is subject to personal opnion  

The point I'm trying to make is with a bit of guidance, patience and a wee
bit of handy man ability, you can do a lot better for a much smaller  cost.
Regards

[CC-Slider]

I bought a co2 tank and a regulator from a company in London Ontario. Now this was not for adding Co2 to a fish tank, but for making my own carbonated drinks as I am Diabetic and thirsty all the time I needed something with a punch and no sugar, let me tell you Water carbonated at 60psi has a punch that no store bought soda water can match. Okay I digress, the point is I pick up a taprite 160 & 2000 PSI regulator for $75 CAD. Their prices range from $60 to $270.

I don't think any are two stage, but I have had mine drop all the way down to under 1000 psi and it had no trouble maintaining the 60 psi. (simple note a Co2 tank will stay at 2000-3000 psi as long as there is liquid Co2 in the tank, once the liquid is gone the pressure starts to drop quickly and steadily). So if you want to check them out they are at:

https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/Draft_Equipment_Regulators_s/414.htm

[lucius]

J&L Aquatics has a combo for $193.04.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/dry-goods/aquarium-supplies/co2-equipment/dual-guage-co2-regulator-solenoid-needle-valve.html

[exv152]

https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/Draft_Equipment_Regulators_s/414.htm

J&L Aquatics has a combo for $193.04.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/dry-goods/aquarium-supplies/co2-equipment/dual-guage-co2-regulator-solenoid-needle-valve.html

Both of these are single stage regulators, which means they're susceptible to end of tank dump. The link i posted above is actually a dual stage for about $160 CAD which means you're guaranteed steady pressure until the tank is completely empty (no dead fish), less fluctuations, and works better with atomic difusers.
https://www.co2art.co.uk/collections/dual-stage-regulators

[x-cimo]

Thanks a lot guys,  I'm glad I came here, I would have run into problem with my old regulator.

I agree with Charlie that I could have save some $$ by ordering from various places.  But I wanted something simple and be sure all parts works together.

I've placed an order for this: https://www.co2art.co.uk/collections/dual-stage-regulators/products/aquarium-co2-dual-stage-regulator-and-solenoid-magnetic-valve-smc-valve

G320 threaded for Canada, and with the precision needle valve, they also have 10% off right now.  I also got a bubble counter, tubing etc.

I will post my results back when I get everything. I'm pretty excited to get back to CO2, I remember how much growth and how much nicer my plants where back then.

I still have a 20lb CO2 tank, but I suspect it's too old now, or at least it need to be re-certified.

In case I need a new tank, any recommendation and local shops ?  I think I would like an aluminum one, so it don't rust like the one I have.

Thanks

[CC-Slider]

I am writing this just to make sure people looking at getting into Co2 planted tanks don't get scared off because they believe they have to have a two stage regulator when a good single stage regulator is in there price range and would do just as good as long as they follow a few simple steps. I realize our more experienced Planted tankers already know these steps.

From my research EOTD happens with a single stage regulator when the pressure in the tank drops below 800-500 psi. As the regulator uses the pressure from the tank to counter the spring pressure to maintain the pressure you have set your regulator to. It is when the high pressure drops low enough the dump happens.

here is a vid on the difference between 1 & 2 stage and EOTD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjxEQdxADRk

Now this is the specs of their regulator and I am sure others will vary, but as he stated this effect doesn't happen until the Tank pressure has dropped significantly he states around 200 psi. Other sources state at 800 to 500 psi EOTD starts. I am sure depending on the quality this number will change from the high end of 1000 ps[ to the low end 200 psi

Below is a video of a Milwaukee regulator EOTD. A few things to note with the video his starting pressure is 1000 psi, thus the tank has had no liquid in it for a bit as he is below the 2000 - 3000 psi range, a tank with liquid will maintain its standing pressure pertaining to room temperature. Also it is obvious the aquarium side is open to atmosphere thus allowing the low pressure side to drop quickly. Also his working pressure is 70 psi and when the tank dump happens it hits as high as 90 psi. Thus it is not a real dump just more than was originally set for

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M08hPs-J3SM

Okay so the reason for all this is to show you that EOTD is a concern with a single stage regulator, but it can easily be avoided.

1- When you see your pressure starting to drop below 2000 psi it is time to change your tank. As there is no longer any liquid in the tank to maintain the 2000 - 3000 psi. I can't say exactly how long it would take a tank to go from 2000 psi to below 1000 psi, but I am sure it would take days if not a week or two depending on tank size and usage. So checking every few days or once a week would prevent this from happening. ( I am sure some of our more experienced planted tankers can give us a better idea on this time frame) but in my experience with my 20lb tank and making Carbonated water I use the tank up in 6 months I am sure the average person the tank would last a year if not longer.  It took me two weeks for my tank to go from 2000 psi to around 1400 psi when I then decided to go in an fill it up for $39 at Davidson's. So checking the tank pressure once a week is probably enough to prevent EOTD for the average person.


2- The savings for allowing your tank to run dry compared to refilling it when it drops below 2000 psi is pennies. So if your reasoning for a two stage regulator is because you want to get your moneys worth from your Co2 tank and allow it to run almost dry before changing it is not worth it. Here is some simple math, say your savings is a $1 a very high estimate it more like 10 cents, but we go with a dollar. The average difference in price of a two stage over a single stage is say $80 it would take you 80 years to recover the cost using my above estimates. So waiting till your tank is almost empty has no significant  financial benefit. And even those with two stage regulators still check there tanks at least once a week as I am sure they will tell us the effect of no Co2 on a tank that was getting Co2 is also not a good thing, not as bad as losing fish but still not something you want to happen.


In conclusion a two stage regulator is a good option if you want to prevent EOTD from ever happening. While a single stage regulator could cause EOTD if not monitored regularly, it is still a viable option for the money strapped person or someone that is always checking his tanks and changes his tanks when he see's them dropping below 2000 psi (or the standing pressure of your tank) and never allows it to drop below 1000 psi.

I hope this helps.

A side note I am not sure if 5,10 or 15lb tanks are filled up to 2000 - 3000 psi like my 20lb, but when you get your filled tank you will see your standing pressure and that is the pressure you need to use to gauge when your tank needs to be changed.

Also EOTD (end of tank dump) doesn't imply the Co2 is all of a suddenly dumped into your tank. It means the your gauge will start allowing a higher pressure through the gauge thus allowing more Co2 to enter than you originally set it up for.

[charlie]

@ ccslider
If i`m not mistaken, regardless of the size of bottle, CO 2 gas bottles are only allowed 800 PSI, this will vary slightly depending on the ambient temperature .
Regards
@x-cimo, not a bad choice, from all reports these units are dependable at a decent price.
The customer service is excellent.

[charlie]

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=129540
http://www2.mathesongas.com/pdfs/products/Regulators-Product-Line-Overview.pdf

[exv152]

In conclusion a two stage regulator is a good option if you want to prevent EOTD from ever happening. While a single stage regulator could cause EOTD if not monitored regularly, it is still a viable option for the money strapped person or someone that is always checking his tanks and changes his tanks when he see's them dropping below 2000 psi (or the standing pressure of your tank) and never allows it to drop below 1000 psi.

A side note I am not sure if 5,10 or 15lb tanks are filled up to 2000 - 3000 psi like my 20lb, but when you get your filled tank you will see your standing pressure and that is the pressure you need to use to gauge when your tank needs to be changed.

BTW all co2 tanks, whether 5, 10, 15 or 20 lbs tanks are all filled to ~ 800psi max. This will vary depending on the ambient temperature,  but if anyone ever happens to get 2000psi you've got a serious problem. In warmer temperatures your gauge may read 1000psi, and in cooler temps it'll be closer to 800. The only time a tank is filled to 3500psi is when it's being hydro tested and it's only for a limited time. If you have a tank that's filled to more than 1000psi you'll want to bring it back to the filling station because chances are they've overfilled it, and this does happen occassionally. Never had it happen with Davidson's.

Also, single stage are a good budget option, but there are other very good reasons to get a dual  other than EOTD, i) fluctuation & drifting and ii) for being able to adjust the working pressure higher than the standard 30psi working pressure. Some can be adjusted up to 200psi, maybe even higher. If you know what you're looking for you can pick a used one up for about $150-$200.

All that said I've had some single stages with good quality needle valves that have never had an EOTD. They'll just slowly reduce in working pressure, but you still get fluctuations in adjusted bubble count and I've also had some challenges when splitting the feed.

[CC-Slider]

Thanks for the correction the video of the Milwaukee regulator threw me off as it goes up to 3,500, I assumed it was similar to mine, just with out the green and red areas showing full and close to empty. (Should of checked it) So I guessed on the PSI base on where my red and green markings would be on that gauge. When I put on my glasses and looked closely at my gauge, (Small print in dim areas are hard for me to read so I total rely on the red and green markings) I could see the green starts at 600 to 1200 psi and the red starts at 200 psi, but I do remember exactly where my gauge was when I took it in to refill and that mark is actually 400 psi and it still took two weeks to drop from the 800 to 400 psi mark

So my conclusion needs to be changed to:
For EOTD as long as your psi stays in the green as per my gauge (600 to 1200 psi) and you refill it before you hit the red (200 to 0 psi) and checking it once a week or along with your water changes you should be fine with a single stage regulator. So if your new to CO2 and want to get into it don't be afraid to go for the single stage if cost is a concern. Of course if you have the extra money or serious on doing multiple tanks and splitting it off of one tank then go for the two stage. As exv123 stated in the quote below the single may have other issues like when splitting the feed and fluctuations, they are not as serious as EOTD, but you do need to know this and make adjustments for these possible issues

All that said I've had some single stages with good quality needle valves that have never had an EOTD. They'll just slowly reduce in working pressure, but you still get fluctuations in adjusted bubble count and I've also had some challenges when splitting the feed.

Thanks to Charlie and exv152 for the correction. My intentions is for everyone to get the correct information and enough so they can make an knowledgeable decision. I would hate to see someone who wanted to get into Co2 planted tanks and then decided not to because they could afford a single stage, but not a two stage and believe if they got the single they would kill all there fish. At the same time if they do get a single stage they should know the pit falls and what to look out for when using one and how to deal with the draw backs so they can get the best possible experience and still afford it.

[charlie]

Just to add, at the recent club meeting, it`s not absolute necessary to go 2 stage , but it does offer some advantages and nice to have.
They are several aspects that contributes to EOTD in a single stage such as poor quality regulator units, the Milwaukee & Dici readily comes to mind, issues are well documented - drifting from the poor quality   needle valve leads the way, In fact Milwaukee at one time changed there instructions to the following - open needle valve   before opening the working pressure - open working pressure slowly to desired bubble rate and then fine tune with the needle valve or something to that effect 
Almost all the post you read where folks say the "X" single stage never had an EOTD is because they are not injecting a high rate of CO2, so the impact of the EOTD is not as drastic, in other words if you are injecting at a high rate to suffice the demand of the plants, the risk of EOTD is more likely .

I always say the customer service from Milwaukee is second to none, i know this because i once had 3 of them.
Regards