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Substrate ideas

Started by matttimms49, June 20, 2017, 02:34:49 PM

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matttimms49

It's a hot debated topic but I'm looking for advice on substrate for a 40 gallon breeder planted tank.

I know that a dirted tank may be the cheapest route to go but I'm not sure if I'm tidy enough to manage it. I think I will end up moving the soil and making a huge mess. Mixing it in with  the sand cap etc

So I was looking for advice on available substrates. Stratum, flourite, eco complete etc. What's everyone's favorite and most cost effective way? Doing this for a 40 gallon is going to be a lot more expensive than my 10 gallon!!

I would like a natural looking planted tank. Like and edge of a river bed.  I may try a carpeting plant but I'm planning on getting a large group of dwarf corys so would like some open floor space for them to go looking for food.

Is it possible to mix substrates to get a range of sizes from larger rocks to sand? Has anyone got experience of doing this before? Or would this just end up in a huge mess also?

Or should I just try dirt?

As always all advice is welcome.

cheers


lucius

I like the Netlea soil that Luke from AquaSense demoed at the last meeting.  I have it my 20 gallon shrimp tank and it's very easy to work with.

https://aquasensew.com/shop/substrate/netlea-brown-soil-3l/

sippingtowel

If you're doing cories, avoid the dirt route big time. Assuming your substrate is deep enough (common sources indicate 3' at least for rooted plants), you can buy some DIY roottabs from theplantguy. (Look for planted tanks that used osmocote)

Note that it is highly not recommended to get more then 2' of sand(look up anaerobic pocket, BUT since you have/want cories that means they will be shuffling around it.

Also note that by getting cories you must make sure your substrate doesnt contain anything sharp, else the cories can hurt themselves. For sand most silca sand(pool filter sand) are fine enough to work. You can go to Canadian Tire for it at 20lb/10$ which is a really nice white, fine, and less rinsing requirement substrate. Or mermaidpools has it for 50lb/10$ , not as nice looking and not sure if it is considered sharp.

If you want carpet you may have to find species with good root growth, and light/co2 requirement.
29 gallon using chihiros a-series, beginner/newbie attempting to do aquascaping/planted aquarium with fish and shrimp. Stocked with some pearlweed, riccia, crypt, ghost shrimp, b.mollies and neons.

matttimms49

Thanks for the feedback guys.

May I ask why to avoid a dirted tank if you have corys? Have you had hands on experience with it?

I have two habrosus corydoras in my ten gallon which has you general gravel in it and they do alright in there. For the 40 I'm hoping to get about 10 of these little guys and have them shuffle around the bottom.

What I am finding hard is actually knowing what these substrates are going to look like in the tank. I'm sure they are all different colours/sizes etc

Does anyone have any good photos or links to photos that show a comparison?


Gilbotron

I have dirted tanks.  I've never kept Cories, but if they are anything like loaches in terms of their digging and rooting around in the substrate, they wouldn't work well in a dirted tank.  They would disrupt the gravel cap too much and you would end up with a very messy tank in no time.

Dirt is great for low maintenance, low light, no CO2 no ferts.  Cheap to setup, cheap to maintain, and you can grow all but the most demanding plants (albeit very slowly and you won't get the bright reds).  If you want a dense carpet you  will be very limited on which plants can be used using this method. I'm only starting to experiment with high light and dirt (no CO2) and results are very promising but still have yet to try some of the more advanced carpet plants.

I have a dirted 30g I intend to redo this summer.  If you want to drop a couple cories in for a few weeks to see what happens with the gravel cap I'd be up for the experiment! This question has come up a few times this year.  So long as you re-home them properly afterwards - I've no interest in cories or space in any of my non-dirted tanks.

Kalinkacat

I just redid my 55 gallon tank and I used topsoil with loam and humus on the bottom, eco-complete on top of that (thin layer) and then black sand.

I have never kept corys but I did just buy 3 cute little Venezualan Orange Spot ones and although I bought them to put one each in separate tanks, they are so cute together that I think I will put them into the 55 gallon when I feel it is safe to populate.  They are currently in a 10 gallon with just black sand, a cave and some Sagittarius Subulata and they don't seem to be disturbing the sand too much.  I think if the dirt is covered, there shouldn't be too much of an issue that they will mess the soil up but I think it has to be covered.

We'll see once they are in and these little guys are so cute, I wouldn't mind trying to breed them.

charlie

Hi Matt, i`m getting the impression that you have a set budget for your 40 gallon breeder, the next concern is the cories and their natural digging behavior.
If that is correct and you are trying to avoid the dirted tanks and keep the cost down, Tropica" substrate" ( not the soil) maybe an option you can investigate, can easily cap it with whatever sand / inert substrate you choose.
http://tropica.com/en/plant-care/substrate/
Errol

matttimms49

#7
Thanks for the advice everyone. I still not sure on what to use exactly, I think I'm gonna get something when it's on sale :)

I may go for fluval stratum again as I've used it before so I know how it handles. Maybe i can mix it with tropica? Get both nutrient?

Also has anyone used pool filter sand? It looks like small grey gravel. I was advised to get some as its inert and $9 for a huge bag. Could use it as filler under a nicer looking gravel or soil.

Cheers

sippingtowel

Never use more than 2" of sand(or was it 1.5"). You will get a build up of  poisonous gases ready to explode on the unfortunate victim which disturb the substrate.

There are designs which do not rely solely on substrate but rather rocks,and driftwood. They relies on plants that stick to said surfaces and mosses. Or uses the nutrient rich substrate for the sole purpose of holding plants.

Google the keywords "aquascape sand island" to see some designs that use sand and nutrient rich substrate.
29 gallon using chihiros a-series, beginner/newbie attempting to do aquascaping/planted aquarium with fish and shrimp. Stocked with some pearlweed, riccia, crypt, ghost shrimp, b.mollies and neons.

ksj

If you want cheap sand that actually looks like sand, get Play Sand. https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.play-sand-20-kg.1000109167.html
Just needs a good rinsing till the water is clear or mostly clear and it looks great and natural. If you want, I still have my old 24g set up as I've been too lazy to take it down. You can have the sand in it as it would still have bacteria and nutrition from being long cycled.
90g with 20g sump - Endlers, Kuhli loaches, Betta, Pearl gourami, Salt and pepper cories, Ottos, Assassin snails, Unlucky trumpet snails
~Kim

matttimms49

#10
Quote from: sippingtowel on June 26, 2017, 10:37:39 PM
Never use more than 2" of sand(or was it 1.5"). You will get a build up of  poisonous gases ready to explode on the unfortunate victim which disturb the substrate.

There are designs which do not rely solely on substrate but rather rocks,and driftwood. They relies on plants that stick to said surfaces and mosses. Or uses the nutrient rich substrate for the sole purpose of holding plants.

Google the keywords "aquascape sand island" to see some designs that use sand and nutrient rich substrate.

Yes, I have heard of the troubles that sand can cause with the build up of gases. I think I will give it a miss for my first large tank. I'm sure to tinker around with added plants etc as I go so I'm pretty sure I will make a sandy mess by the end of it.

Thanks for the google search ref. It gave me some good ideas.

Cheers,

matttimms49

Quote from: ksj on June 27, 2017, 01:25:42 AM
If you want cheap sand that actually looks like sand, get Play Sand. https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.play-sand-20-kg.1000109167.html
Just needs a good rinsing till the water is clear or mostly clear and it looks great and natural. If you want, I still have my old 24g set up as I've been too lazy to take it down. You can have the sand in it as it would still have bacteria and nutrition from being long cycled.

Hey , thanks for the offer but I will have to say no thank you for the sand.

Gilbotron

Anybody ever try coal grit (sandblasting media)?  Know where to get it locally?
I've read good things about it if you are looking for a dark substrate on the cheap ($10/50lbs).  I'd like to give it a try as a dirt cap in my next tank.

FYI, anaerobic pockets aren't that bad if you use too much sand.  I have the problem in one of my tanks (too much dirt) - it is annoying - stinks when bubbles burst and you get soft/squishy sections of substrate that makes it hard to plant in.  I haven't experienced any toxicity issues or lost any livestock due to it, but I did fix it almost immediately - maybe if you let it go untouched it could build up to fatal levels.  Real easy to fix - poke substrate all over with a chopstick and/or let the Trumpet Snails take care of it.

angelcraze

#13
I haven't used blasting sand personally, nor do I know where to purchase it locally yet, but I've seen tanks with it and it looks like something I'd be interested in too.  The tanks I've seen have nice plant growth.   It might be a bit sharper than PFS though, a smaller grit is recommended for bottom feeders/sifters.  I personally love the black colour, some ppl don't even rinse it and another interesting thing about it is it contains low to no silicate which means you won't see the diatoms that often plague new tanks.

Here's a good link to read about it :)
https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/black-diamond-sand.196944/


I have dirted tanks as well, but no bottom feeders/sifters.  I don't find the soil messy, but I don't tend to rescape often.  I have a 90g dirted tank with deeper dirt beds, I do get anaerobic bacterial pockets, I poke the substrate regularily with a skewer, but I've never seen any issues with it harming any fish or shrimp.  In the foreground where the beds are 2" or under, there is no anaerobic bacteria buildup.

But I'm not sure about dirt long term.  My dirted tanks have been setup for about 3-4 years, the plant growth has diminished significantly.  I feel the nutrients in dirt are used up very quickly, and I've been using DYI osmotote tabs for the last year under my heavy rooters because they needed it.  

The combo that is working the best for me in my 120g is regular gravel (would've used blastng sand if I knew about it), EcoComplete with swords planted in buried glass pots in MGOPS capped with the mixed substrate.  I can move the plants with ease and replant them when the nutrients are used up without dismantling the tank.  I haven't replanted them yet though after a year or two like that, I've only added root tabs instead.  It was an inexpensive way for me to plant my big 120g.  I posted a pic to show plant growth in glass pots.

Give me ShReD till I'm dEaD!!!

CC-Slider

#14
I did a quick search and I found  this from an old post in our forum. Don't know if it is still good.

Merkley Supply
100 Bayview Rd
728-2693

They have Black AND Silica, the price are:

Black Sand:      $7.00 / 50lb bag
Silica (White):  $6.25 / 40kg bag

Update: I called them and  all they have is what is called Ebony grit (made from copper slag) as I am not a shrimp expert I belive copper is bad for them
"Quando omni flunkus, moritati"
"when all else fails, play dead"

Gilbotron

I don't think the ebony grit would be good for inverts or loaches due to the copper content.

I found this at TSC in Rockland.  Its not black but should be dark.  I read some posts on the GTAA about using it and it seems safe and cheap.  I'm going to try to get a bag tonight and see how it is. 

http://www.tscstores.com/50LB-KE-ENVIROBLAST-SANDBLASTING-SAND-P4428.aspx#.WVvHk2jythE

CC-Slider

I have been doing a lot of searching and I found a main supplier of Coal slag and also a supplier of Black shot ( a mixture of Coal Slag and Nickel Slag) it seems this is also safe for aquariums from the reports I have seen.

I am hoping they can direct me to a local seller of the sandblasting material. One is
www.optaminerals.com they are actually close to where the Caoac Convention was in Burlington
the other is.

http://wostinson.com and they sell the Black Shot which is a mix of Coal slag and Nickel Slag. Also they are in Eastern Ontario as you have seen their fuel trucks in the area.
Both are commercial suppliers, but hope fully they can direct me to a local seller.
"Quando omni flunkus, moritati"
"when all else fails, play dead"

matttimms49

I'm looking forward to seeing the results/look of the sandblasting sand.

I picked up a bag of pool filter gravel from Club Piscene. It cost $8 for a huge bag. and looks pretty decent, grey in colour. It says its natural rock and untreated and seems to be a size between sand and small gravel which would work quite well for me personally.

I will post up some photos this evening to show the scale and colour.

Gilbotron

I picked up the slag from TSC and started using it.  $15 for 50lbs.  Took a while to rinse - very dirty and I now know what they mean by "oil slick" from other postings on the stuff. 

I got it in the tank and filled it.  Looks really sharp - has some metallic flecs that give it a real polished look.  I'll post some pics after I do a water change tonight.


angelcraze

I've actually used that PFS from Club Piscine.  I had to rinse it well, but it's the perfect grain for growing plants, I even use it as a soil cap.  The grain size is heavy enough not to disturb and blow around the way regular sand does, especially advantageous for skim siphoning.  It's a cheap, nice looking substrate, for the price you can't go wrong :)
Give me ShReD till I'm dEaD!!!

Gilbotron

#20
Finally got the tank dirted and capped with the coal slag.  Bad lighting but as you can see the substrate is like sand but very dark.  Not quite black but close, and from what I've read it should not fade over time but will see.  If you look closely at the bottom you can see the colour difference between the dirt and the slag.

Will see how water parameters hold up over next couple days and weeks, although it won't be a true isolated test given I'm using a new kind of dirt that's a little higher in nutrients. Couldn't find my old faithful dirt anywhere! (MGOCGS)



CC-Slider

Thats the stuff from TSC correct. The two places I found both stopped carrying it.  :(

Looks great I even like the sparkle. The closest TSC to me is Kempville, I will have to call to see if they have it. Just need to know how big is the Tank you used it on and did you use the whole 50lbs. As I plan to use it on a 180 dirted.
"Quando omni flunkus, moritati"
"when all else fails, play dead"

Gilbotron

Yup - TSC.  I had to go to Rockland to get it (15 mins from Orleans so not terrible).

It only comes in 50lb bags.  Thats a 29g (30"x12" footprint) tank and I used ~2/3 of the bag.  I put ALOT though - a normal person would have only used ~1/2 the bag or less (I had to stabilize the rocks and fill in the back right section to 5" depth).  I rinsed it quite a bit and I'm sure there was significant loss with that (much more than what you would experience with PFS).

For a 180 you'll need at least 3 bags but that might be cutting it close.  You should probably get 4, maybe even 5 if you plan on having some raised areas.

Going to test the water tonight and see if any ammonia, but might be a false positive from the new dirt I used.

Gilbotron

No unusual water readings with the coal slag after about a week.  Not even a hint of ammonia or nitrates. 

I added fish, a couple snails and a seeded filter on the weekend and everything seems ok.  Snails should be a good test if there is any copper in it.

So far this substrate has my vote as a an excellent and cheap alternative. 

CC-Slider

This may be to late but TSC has the White and black sandblasting sand on sale for 9.99. Yesterday and today.
"Quando omni flunkus, moritati"
"when all else fails, play dead"

Gilbotron

The white comes from different material so not sure what impact it would have on water chemistry.