Not sure what's going on in my 120g

[angelcraze]

Hi all  There's something going on in my 120g, but I'm not sure what yet.  The issue may have been going on for two years, minimal deaths.

I thought I saw something pink (twice now) at the vent of one of my male angelfish's vent who is now wasting.  He eats but spits a lot.  

I thought I saw something pink at the vent of one of my female angelfish once, she is looking bloaty and gravid but not laying eggs.  This has been like that for 2 years.

No angelfish spawns in 2 years. I never noticed anything weird with their poops.

Parameters are
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 0ppm (heavily planted tank, low bioload)
PH 7.0
TDS 106

So the latest possible diagnosis is Callamanus worms.

Does anyone know where to get Fenbendazole or Lavamisole dewormers soluable in water?

I'm still not jumping into anything, still observing, so also, if anyone has any ideas for diagnosis, it would be appreciated.  

Additional info can be given if asked for.
Tx!

[bergenm]

I had them in one tank years ago, I bought the levamisole from here...

http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.html

I have also seen it for sale in the past at some of the other clubs (gtaaquaria, DRAS) you can check there.

[angelcraze]

TY!   I found some for sale now tx to the members here

I'm still not sure what the issue is, I haven't seen anything pink/reddish at the vents at all since the three times I might have seen something. 

I hate treating unless I know what the issue is for sure, but in your experience with the worms, were they hard to see?  I literally see nothing most of the time and my fish had to be infected for years with no deaths.  Not even the small tetras have died except 3 hy511s in two weeks about two months ago, I suspect it was simply old age since the tetras are all 5 years old or older.

It's really only two angelfish,  one sub-alfa male is wasting, and one female is bloated (or just always fat) in the abdomen.  He started wasting quickly and seems to have trouble swallowing food.  He eats them better if I presoak them, and keeps mosquito larvae down for the most part, but I have no idea why he'd suddenly have trouble eating his pellets.  I've tried different brands, different sizes of pellets, it doesn't seem to matter.  He chews and spits, if he spits too much, the food is gone, snatched up by a tetra. 

[angelcraze]

Hi all, I thought I'd update my situation.

I went ahead and ordered Levamisole for internal nematodes.

Well, I finally saw a nemotode sticking out of one of my angelfishes' vent for ID after the first Levamisole treament so that I knew what I was dealing with.  Pic below. 

Unfortunately, I lost my male angel who was not eating well     I suspect he succumbed to septicemia and was no longer eating at all, so I put him down humanely.

I then lost my other large male angel out of the blue, he dropped dead after the second Levamisole treament. 

I lost my male EB ram at the same time who was also wasting sadly.

I moved all my fish suspected of being in contact with the parasite to my 120g to treat all fish at the same time and ease of medicating.  I completed 3 treatments of Levamisole every 2 weeks.  I still lost a red phantom, (could be old age) but I ordered Fenbenzadole anyway to be more confident this worm is eradicated. 

Fenben is added to food.  This is what I did:
I added 1/8 tsp Fenben to a tablespoon of Repashy gel food.  I used boiling water for the Repashy, let cool for a minute while stirring, then added the Fenben and mixed very well.  I didn't have any fresh garlic or garlic guard (Fenben apparently is nasty tasting) so I added garlic powder to the Repashy.  Also, Epsom salts is a good thing  to add to worm treatments since it acts as a mild laxative and helps the fish rid its intestine. 

I have one more feeding session to do to complete 3 Fenben treatments every 2 weeks.  I'm very happy to say my fish went crazy for the Fenben laced food.  My best pair of angelfish are caring for  their young again after a 5 month hiatus, I believe that is a great sign that they are feeling better!

My big male platinum angel is still very thin, but he's eating well (never stopped) and I'm waiting to see him put some weight on.  Still hoping he can be saved.

Same with my bloaty female angel, she is still fat in the abdomen, but eating and acting well, so I hope she can saved too.  My female angel with the worms hanging is still alive as well, so hopefully this thing is being wiped out for good. 

Luckily, I've only seen improvement since I started to medicate. 

I just want to say I always QT'd all my fish for months.  This parasitic nematode snuck in through my QT procedure.  It's not something that is easily noticed.  I observed nothing except wasting in more than one fish which is when I noticed a problem.   No worms observed before dewormers were used. 

[nerdRVT]

I just wanted to chime in and mention to be mindful using Levamisole in fish. There's not a lot of data to show it is all that effective for intestinal nematodes, and it renders fish like zebra danios sterile at therapeutic doses. We're not 100% sure what other health issues it causes. Also, if you buy it online you may end up on a list. It is used heavily to cut street drugs.

Fenbendazole may be better but efficacious dosing orally is tough. It has a similar method of action as Levamisole, and there may be a similar risk or gonad (and other organ) damage. There's a few papers out there demonstrating dosing in zebra danios, but no conclusive evidence that it works well. I have read studies where an avermectin drug like Emamectin or Ivermectin was used in feed specifically milled for oral dosing, but the margin of safety is really low.

The problem with nematode parasites like Pseudocapillaria tomentosa (one of the most common nematode scourges in the pet trade and for us in research too) is that the fish can easily reinfect themselves with eggs shed from other fish in the tank, and the eggs are hardy and can persist in the environment for a long time. You can dose with meds to reduce the parasite burden, but it's really not uncommon for fish which are otherwise healthy to carry the parasite with minimal symptoms, and to simply get reinfected by eating fecal material in the tank. That's how parasites are supposed to work. It's often due to other underlying reasons why the parasite will appear to cause wasting and moribundity.

There's a guy named Mike Kent in Oregon who is studying how to treat and eliminate this parasite in collections. His work is with research fish, but the ornamental aquaculture folks were keen on his work too, from what I saw at Aquaculture America this year. He actually wrote a pretty cool primer on the parasite, and how it's thought that it causes cancer in zebra danios. Check it out here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11178333_Pseudocapillaria_tomentosa_a_nematode_pathogen_and_associated_neoplasms_of_zebrafish_Danio_rerio_kept_in_research_colonies

[angelcraze]

Well that's extremely disheartening.  Thanks for the article tho.   What type of underlining conditions cause wasting then pls?  I believe the parasite has been in my system for a long long time and suddenly causes wasting in more than one fish (3 of them).  I lost 2.  So I thought it just was able to reproduce at max levels for some reason and I had to stop it.

About cutting drugs, I'm not worried, the amount I I got is not cause for concern and is a really expensive cut if a dealer was buying it like that.

Some other angels looked thinner but not wasting, I saw the worms hanging from one of these angelfish.  So what are you suggesting?  I'll never get rid of these things?  I redose every 2 weeks and siphon often to catch the eggs and newly hatched.  What else can I do?  I'm seriously scared to ever buy any new fish from anyone.  Honestly, I'd rather give up the hobby than have a parasite in my system.  If parasites are usually in aquariums and they are that impossible to eradicate,  how can anyone sell fish or plants to other aquarists then?  I QT everything, snails, plants, everything.  Apparently I can't be sure to have to no problems with internal parasites even QTing for 3 months min!

[angelcraze]

Well, luckily, Levamisole at 2ppm 3 times didn't hurt my angelfish pair   It didn't render them sterile anyway....
https://youtu.be/AFIyAVtsS4M

There was an outrageous dosage amount floating around, something like 14ppm of Levamisole.  I was under the impression 2ppm is just as effective and hopefully avoids the side effects.   

I didn't update this last time, but the pair started eating their eggs while all this worm crap was going on, about 5 months.  I have one fenben feeding left to do, but I take this as a good sign they are feeling better  

[angelcraze]

@nerdRVT  So what would YOU do if you suspected a nematode infection in your system Pls?

[angelcraze]

Also, do you know anything about Flubenzadole?  It's dosed in the water column and I haven't used it ever. 

[nerdRVT]

Sorry for the late reply! Travelling for work, and dealing with fish health issues at work!

It'd be really hard to completely clear a planted tank with substrate. Gut parasites like Pseudocapillaria shed eggs which can persist for some time in the substrate, and when it is disturbed, the fish may ingest the eggs and re-infect themselves. Even in our tanks, which are bare, we risk any accumulated malm harboring eggs, or even possibly the biofilm! Even in a lab setting, with very strong UV sanitization and very fine particulate filters, it's very tough to knock this parasite down. We use heat treatment to clear it out of empty recirculating rack systems, when we can. That's one of our best weapons currently. It is present in ~70% of all zebra danio research facilities worldwide, and I'd wager the ratio is higher in pet trade operations. The key is to prevent undue stress and make sure fish are fed well, with good water quality. Parasites don't usually want to kill their hosts, they prefer to go undetected, so I'm sure that lots of affected species can live pretty long without showing much in the way of signs of gut parasites.

There's a couple fairly pervasive microsporidian pathogens which cause fish to show signs of wasting.  Pseudoloma is pretty nasty, but it effects different species in different ways. I can't really comment on angelfish specifically. It causes cyprinids to become emaciated, get deformed, and become sterile. There's also Pleistophora, which is better known as 'neon tetra disease' but it causes a range of symptoms and causes overall immune suppression in lots of different types of fish. There's no real logistically possible way to get rid of either of these in a home aquarium setting.  Strong UV will help to knock them down, but we're still learning about all the transmission routes. You know how some kittens and puppies are born, already infected with worms? This is called vertical transmission, and it occurs with these pathogens. So eggs are infected from fertilization.

I've not read anything about using flubendazole for fish, either in a bath or via oral dosing. It has the same method of action as fenbendazole, same drug family. It's not in our drug toolkit at work, anyway. There are obviously pros and cons to bath treatments versus oral dosing, but I personally wouldn't use a bath treatment for this kind of drug. It's already hard enough to control how much fish ingest when it is mixed in food.

Here's a research-focused article on microsporidiosis. A little light reading.   There's a link to the free full text PDF on the page: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23382342