OVAS

As I posted earlier (http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=23824.0), I've got myself a new 225 gal tank (72"Lx24"Wx30"H).

Now I'm building a stand for it. I have some limited woodworking skills and not too many tools at my disposal, so I'm trying to do the best I can with what I have :)

The basic design of the frame is quite simple. I decided to go with regular 2x4's for most of the frame and use 3/4" plywood for top and bottom of the cabinet and use 1/2" plywood to finish sides and the front. This would add structural strength to the stand.

Here is the drawing I used for my project.
(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2FStand-plan.png&hash=f28b65e69ca1f60da0ee97f05f7b41b81118365d)

I bought all the materials at Home Depot. I have cut the 8'x4' sheet of 3/4" plywood to end up with 2 pieces measuring 2'x6' (for top and bottom) and one remaining 4'x2' which I may use for something later... I made sure that at least the top sheet is at least 2'x6' (I made it even a bit bigger) and the bottom sheet will be a bit narrower than 2' but that should be Ok...

I assembled the top and bottom frames by using the plywood as a template (watch for Home Depot's "precistion" cuts as my plywood wasn't exactly square).

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand1.jpg&hash=5460a437d5c61017b8dc01dfc4fc94b43358e814)

I assembled the frame on actual plywood sheets I'm going to use to ensure all the wooden beams align properly and all touch the plywood. I used some wood glue to ensure even stronger joints:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand2.jpg&hash=09f286681bfeab9d9aa0b09a622077316ee38e34)

When the outer frame was done I measured the distance between the beams and tried to cut the cross members as close to those dimensions as possible. 2x4's are generally not very straight so I used the cross members to straighen them up as well...

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand3.jpg&hash=186140b5612d66912a9e73144fdea10faffd7773)

This way both the top and the bottom of the stand were assembled.

Then I cut the vertical support beam trying to make them as close in size as possible. The good DeWalt compond mitre saw is a god sent for that...

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand4.jpg&hash=feac51a8d55157b06a687231c4208d36356ff01a)

I started assembling the corner posts first by gluing/screwing two planks together. I also reinforced the corner with a metal bracket:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand5.jpg&hash=ce92c41456c3ba90e78212691d90452cb3957605)

then I mounted them onto the bottom plate:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand6.jpg&hash=c5e32514951c275363193cfcc314cfb623f71c89)

It wasn't all that easy because of the thickness of the wood on the bottom. I had only 4" screws and the 2x4's width is actually 3.5" and the plywood is another 3/4". So I ended up countersinking the screws quite a bit...

Same way I mounted the middle 5 posts. I used 2x6" for the two font and middle pack post for additional strength. I didn't install the middle post in the front to allow for easier access to the inside of the stand (if I end up putting some equipment under there) and that's why I put two 2x6s instead of 2x4s...

View of the front of the stand (it's upside down):

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand7.jpg&hash=39ed41a7d7a0429ad3cd90c8e3697e532d03ccd7)

And the back:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand8.jpg&hash=aef3d91a1f46e2b1714c634b405b480919468f24)

(I used a couple of full 2x4s to align the vertical planks to ensure they glue up nice and straight).

This is how it looks right side up:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand9.jpg&hash=ab9f3dc0091a0fae585717fafe96c9cc9edebeb5)

I have also reinforced all the posts with metal brackets.

After adding the top of the stand and gluing/screwing it onto the base I started adding the side walls made of 1/2" plywood (finished in oak so I can stain the stand later):

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand10.jpg&hash=cdac17c677b8d070ed6778a89b51c5a4fc3c51f1)

This is pretty much where it is at right now... Two days of work got me to this point... I will update you on the progress of the project.

Once I finish the walls/front the most "scary" part for me would be making doors... Still have no ideas on how to tackle this. Tried to get them ready-made from the store but they are all come finished and I don't want to try to match the stains. It seems my options are either to have custom doors built by a kitchen company or have them built myself. I'd rather explore the second option but I'm somewhat missing some important tools to do a nice job of it (namely, a table saw and a router)... Well, I guess I'll get there when I get there... I still need to complete the finish of the stand and doors can wait a bit...

use a dremel and try to do it by hand then sand it and get it as close as possible you couldnt be that bad with wood the stand turned out pretty nice so far

Very nice Build  :)

Nice start looks great. Home depot will cut the wood for you. You get 2 cuts free per piece then a buck a cut. If you get the right guy he won't charge ya for a few extra cuts they didn't for me. Be nice to see more pics. Instead of routing the edges trim them Home Depot has tons of nice trim. Then use the Loc-Tight glue to hold the pieces on.

Quote from: dan2x38 on July 13, 2008, 10:32:41 AM
Nice start looks great. Home depot will cut the wood for you.

The problem with Home depot is that their saw isn't really precise... I guess it could be if used properly, but the plywood they cut for me was even out of square, not just cut too short/long... It's good enough for cutting a sheet of plywood in half to load into a car but for door, I'd use something better... :)

But anyway, I'll ask a few local companies and see what they would offer for custom made doors. If they turn out to be too expensive, I'll make them myself. I have a few options to go from here:

- Cut 1/2" sheet of plywood to the size of my doors and use some kind of half-round trim on edges (by the way, Home Depot doesn't have too wide of a selection of trims in this size, they do have a fair amount of trims for baseboards and doors, but the only thing they have in 1/2" is the quarter-round corner trim [which I used on the corners of the stand - see pics below]. Any suggestion of another store that could carry a wider selection of wood/trim for furniture making?).

- Cut the doors out of wall wood panels. They look like a bunch of beveled planks glued together. Could be more attractive than plain flat doors.

- Assemble doors from four frame pieces with the middle insert. If using a router, could shape the edges to have some nice-looking doors. This is the best direction but the most labor-intensive and requires table saw (to cut the lip/tongue) and a router to shape edges.

I will see what happens, but I did end up ordering a router on eBay... Should be here soon, so I will have to find out what I can do with this thing... Never even held a router in my hands before :)

As far as the project progress is concerned, I (almost) completed the front of the stand. Put the oak plywood on the outside (front and sides), filled and sanded all the seams. Installed the corner trim and the base moulding.

Still need to finish the top (level the side plywood sticking above the surface in a few places and sand the whole surface) and install a top trim piece.

Here is how the stand looks now:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand11.jpg&hash=49e962400e57ee47f9ed7ea64950a081a1743660)

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand12.jpg&hash=59cd4a6617e8340bc2fdd6c11b5a88e97dcf21d7)

And a close-up of the corner trim:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand13.jpg&hash=2a8c74e3dd08158610a5f5d999a4d132f4e415fa)

looks pretty damn good to me so far!  :)  do you mind if I ask what it has cost thus far, and then again when it's done? 

This looks really nice to me too! I hope you have no trouble moving the stand to its final spot.

I am looking forward to see how your tank project develops as I am planning to do the same thing one day ...  ::)

Quote from: RoxyDog on July 15, 2008, 10:01:33 AM
do you mind if I ask what it has cost thus far, and then again when it's done?

I think right now it's around $200.

Quote from: alexv on July 14, 2008, 11:20:19 PM
The problem with Home depot is that their saw isn't really precise... I guess it could be if used properly, but the plywood they cut for me was even out of square

You correct on writting that, I have had the same problems with several places who cut lumber ( Reno, Home depot, Pillon Lumber ), final cut size far from what was requested, and totally out of square.
I have had plywood cut 1/4 inch short of what I had requested, having it out of square did not make my life / build any easier.
I don't mind paying the $1 per cut since I don't have the place to store a table saw, but I would expect it to be on the money when I leave there ( I can live with 1/16" off, it's an industry standard in Cabinetry ), specially that I paid full rip for the lumber, plus approx. $25 for the cutting  :o

Last place I tried who was on the money with all the cuts ( Rona Hull sector / Plateau ), very precise and no complaints with them at all.
Problem is, that there lumber was at least 1/3 of the price more expensive : /

I would suggest having things at home depot cut so you can still fit it into you vehicle but have them cutt it atleast 4" larger then you need.  When you get it home fix it up with a square, nice chalk line and a skill saw.

your stand looks good.  I always planned to do this eventually for my 60g but my honey-do list just keeps getting larger and its always at the bottom of the priority list.

As for your doors, you may not want to go the router route if you've never used one before.  It can be easy to make some ugly doors using a router.

Are you trying to keep this stand simple? clean and modern? Consider just making some 1x4 pine and making a frame with 45 Degree corners and use a sheet of 1/8" plywood laminated as the infill for the frame.  its clean, simple and easy to construct.  cheaper then a router as well.

Laminate pine and router the edges with the bit of your choice.

Quote from: Iceman on July 16, 2008, 11:48:04 AM
Laminate pine and router the edges with the bit of your choice.

Yes, that's the route I'm looking at right now... BTW, my router just arrived in the mail... Still waiting for the router bit set... :)

Quote from: sdivell on July 16, 2008, 10:08:00 AM
I would suggest having things at home depot cut so you can still fit it into you vehicle but have them cutt it atleast 4" larger then you need.  When you get it home fix it up with a square, nice chalk line and a skill saw.

You're better off renting one of their vans for 1.5 hrs at $19 and simply bringing everything home and doing it yourself.

I was thinking of getting the wood cut there. But after reading this I'm just going to bring it home.

For door designs & cabinet ideas (I am cheap) go have a coffee at Chapters... ;) I go to the DIY section browse for books sit with a coffee and check things out... I get a lot of good ideas and pieces to the puzzle when I need to do something. Like I said I am cheap... ;) LOL

Good suggestions, but I think I'll be fine. My router arrived and I already tried it on some of my other wood projects (never used it before :)). Seems to be Ok. I also got a router table, so that should help with precision cutting. Only thing missing is the wide router bits for cabinet door making (which is still in the mail). Once I receive it, I should be fine to try it out. I'm sure I'm still ahead (pricewise) even considering the cost of equipment (vs ordering the custom doors made). eBay rules :)

I'll update you on my progress with the stand when I have some :)

Ok, finally I got around to finishing the cabinet doors. After trying to find good piece of oak board for the central panel and figuring out that even if I were able to find it it would cost too much, I decided to go with a regular pine for doors. Since the cabinet is going to be stained black, I hope there won't be too much of a color difference between the doors and the rest of the cabinet (oak vs pine).

Turns out it's not all that difficult. With the right equipment one can do anything :)

I bought a bunch of 1.5" x 3/4" for rails and stiles a 24" x 72" pine board for the central panel. Using the router bits shown below (which I bought for about $25.00 on ebay + s/h) I shaped both the frame and the panel for a nice tight fit...

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Frouter_bits.jpg&hash=c71a12591f5296d1f166103ba74fc1d798bf234e)

In the end, the doors turned out to be quite nice and cost me about $15 a piece for the wood (not counting the tools but I will surely use them for other projects).

Here is how the cabinet looks today. Just needs some staining.

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand14.jpg&hash=3b4a3e34a0ea8ce8baa989e994d7970a973b2e06)

Well, even though it took me over 2 months to finish the stand, it doesn't mean I spent all this time on it :) In meantime, I also prepared the room in the basement below the main floor where the tank will be so I can place all the equipment there. I installed a new laundry tub where I can wash my filters (and not having to share it with the rest of other household to eliminate any chance of contact with harsh chemicals), installed the counter on which the sump will be placed. The biggest project was to provide the drain. I had to open up the concrete floor and put some sewage pipes in there. It was a scary project (my wife had to leave the house while I was using the jack hammer I rented at Home Depot - she couldn't stand the sight of me wrecking our home :)).

It worked pretty well in the end. Here is how that "room" looks like now.

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Ffilter_room.jpg&hash=225823e6e0173101a55f8c561be87691f097f8d1)

Now I need to actually open up the wall to put the in/out pipes to the main tank and install all the plumbing in the basement, construct the sump (or have someone build it), make the light fixture and the million other things in order for the whole set-up to be complete... But this is going to be a subject of another post :)

Finally today we brought the finished stand into the living room where the tank will go... I have also provided a separate 20A circuit for the tank (behind the stand).

The tank itself is still in the garage but today I have filled it with water to test for any water leaks... Thankfully there were none :)

I still need to finish the sump which would go in the basement below the tank and put in all the plumbing... But I'm slowly getting all the equipment (just got a 1000W titanium water heater with remote temperature sensor). In the mail are the 72" T5 light fixture (8x80W 6500K), water filter (for constant drip water change system), bulk activated carbon (for the filter)...

Can't wait for the day everything is running, but I guess it'll still take some time. Trying to not cause too much dent in the budget at once...

I wonder if there are people here with some tank plumbing experience... Maybe someone can provide some more advice for me as to the best way of having everything done. Maybe someone can even come to my house and a have a look-see type of chat while sipping some beer? ;) (winking at redbelly after reading this: http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=29794.0)

[attachment deleted by admin]

very nice!  :)

Wow nice job looks very sharp. So can I have your router? ;) Having the tools makes a difference. Now have to get that tank up there and post those pics. Quite a project thanks for sharing.

It looks AMAZING!! :D can't wait to see the tank set up next!

I think this thread is slowly drifting from just the stand DIY to the progress of the whole setup, but who cares? :)

I thought I'd show the inside of the stand. I added 4 dual electrical outlets for the equipment. It is protected by a GFCI. The outlet box is mounted one the left side of the stand and powered by a modified heavy duty appliance extension cord (I just cut off the socket end, removed wire insulation and hardwired it to the electrical box on the stand. The other end still has the power plug which will go in the wall outlet):

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand18.jpg&hash=d5944a3f22f08887d4dcdb51d7aac9ebd7efce0e)

I opened up the wall on the right side and drilled two 2" holes in the floor for the drain/return pipes. I decided to use 2" ABS pipes between the tank on the first floor and the sump in the basement (to reduce water resistance and make the pump's life easier). I also added a separate 20A circuit just for the tank equipment with a separate breaker on the panel:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand16.jpg&hash=af817ee9f8476be782009d751ac3341e7011770b) (https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand17.jpg&hash=d9b97dc679ce85eb800fac0d5e47f620778eb0b2)

You can see the pipes sticking from the wall, but they are not connected to anything yet and just are hanging "by their necks". When the plumbing in the basement is complete, the actual outlets will sit a bit higher in the wall.

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand19.jpg&hash=8f6ec9f0cdef34cbe99f848226e849cb028d1cb6)

Making the sump, connecting my ReeFlo Dart, setting up the constant water change system and hooking up the tank itself is where the fun begins. Don't even know how to approach this at this point :)

The pump is stitting in the box:
(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fpump.jpg&hash=c3a235b7d0957d5cc5a58ce3c568ddec01289dc2)

And the water filter for the waterchange system just arrived too:
(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Ffilter.jpg&hash=32d5c7b6678e7d2cd06f85b93da2cf68b3d2e8ec)

So, I'm getting closer to the end of it... :) I hope soon I'll be able to just sit back and enjoy the view... But till then, a lot of things have to happen. And I'd appreciate any advice knowledgeable people can give me regarding the plumbing/sump set up...

The GFCI is in the breaker box? A dedicated breaker for the set-up? Very nice project...

Quote from: dan2x38 on November 18, 2008, 10:13:20 PM
The GFCI is in the breaker box? A dedicated breaker for the set-up? Very nice project...

No, I put just GFCI outlets. The right one of two in the wall and the rightmost one in the 4-gang box on the stand. The rest of the outlets are connected to the 'load' of GFCIs so they are all protected. But the whole thing is on its own circuit/breaker (after thinking how much power I need to for heater/lights/pump/etc I decided to have a separate 20A circuit for it). Given that my tank is rather deep (30") and I'm into heavily planted tanks, I got myself a 72" fixture with T5 bulbs (8 x 80W), so the light alone will be 640W (I guess more when counting ballasts, etc).

Nice wish I could add a breaker I rent and no easy access to the box. I have a 75g with a cable heater (under gravel) have you consider that? It helps with filtering and actually reduces heating costs and load on heaters. Heater will be in the sump I guess? My plants love the gravel heater... happy warm feet... :)

What is the thrashold GFCI outlets in your cabinet?

Quote from: dan2x38 on November 18, 2008, 10:37:29 PM
Nice wish I could add a breaker I rent and no easy access to the box. I have a 75g with a cable heater (under gravel) have you consider that? It helps with filtering and actually reduces heating costs and load on heaters. Heater will be in the sump I guess? My plants love the gravel heater... happy warm feet... :)

What is the thrashold GFCI outlets in your cabinet?

The wall outlet is 20A (with 20A load). The outlets in the cabinet are 15A. I actually have the heating cable in my current 55 gal... I tried to find a suitable one for 225g and didn't find anything ready-made. I guess I could put two or three of Red Sea Root Therm 160 cables. And I probably would if I could by them from Big Al's USA site (where they are available at US$26.49 each), but on Canadian site the same thing costs CAD$99.99. So $300 in heating cable is a bit overkill (and a rip-off in my mind). I could use Tunze Substrate Heating Cable (http://www.aquabotanicstore.com/Tunze_Substrate_Heating_Cable_p/7028.80.htm) but I think they are European spec'd and hence I would need a transformer for our 110V.

Anyway, I'm still thinking whether I'm going to add the heater to the substrate.

As long as you have a place ship the RedSea ones USPS ground there is no brokrage fees so still cheaper than here. usually get some folks in on a group order. The cables makes a huge difference. It works great to maintain a constant temp. Also the convection it creates in the water creates better filtering and less dead spots. Like I said my plants love it. I have 2 200w heaters they hardly on and not for long.

Would the GFCI outlets ever trip? The filters, heater etc. are never on at the same time. Each one seperate would never come close to 15 amp. I guess lights are going to be the big draw but would only be a spike at start up.

Either way sweet set-up? Be great to see the project develop. How about inline heaters? Doing pressurized C02?

I'm not an expert, but I have just finished a similar project at my house.  I also live in bbqhaven so if you wanted to come over and check it out for ideas let me know.  Alternately, i'd be happy to swing by your place and we could brain-storm some ideas on the sump and plumbing.

I've spilled enuf tanks over the years that I've got a fairly good grip on setting up a sump so that you do not flood the basement... thats not a warranty btw... hahaha.

Shoot me a PM.   :)

Quote from: dan2x38 on November 19, 2008, 08:11:05 AM
As long as you have a place ship the RedSea ones USPS ground there is no brokrage fees so still cheaper than here. usually get some folks in on a group order. The cables makes a huge difference. It works great to maintain a constant temp. Also the convection it creates in the water creates better filtering and less dead spots. Like I said my plants love it. I have 2 200w heaters they hardly on and not for long.

Would the GFCI outlets ever trip? The filters, heater etc. are never on at the same time. Each one seperate would never come close to 15 amp. I guess lights are going to be the big draw but would only be a spike at start up.

Either way sweet set-up? Be great to see the project develop. How about inline heaters? Doing pressurized C02?

I called BigAl's US some time ago and asked about that but they said that they will not ship to Canada and I should go to the Canadian store... :(

As far as GFCI is concerned, it's not really to protect the line from overloading (the breakers do that), but rather to protect me from electrical shock.

Yes, I'm planning to have a pressurized CO2 system (see my diagram in the other thread - the link is in my first post in this thread).

GFI's are the exact same thing as your breaker in the basement or wherever your panel is.  The difference is the GFI has a MUCH FASTER response time than the basement breaker, which makes it "safer" around water.  But that's all a GFI is, same as a basement breaker, just more sensitive.

I would use them (I think you said you are going to anyhow) as they are a good idea as if you get them wet and do get a shock, a GFI will pop very quickly which can avoid personal dmg and property dmg... while a basement breaker might not be fast enuf or sensitive enuf to save you from a nasty shock or worse.

I've now exceeded my 2cents of value for the day.. that is all. :-X

Quote from: Hookup on November 19, 2008, 03:28:13 PM
GFI's are the exact same thing as your breaker in the basement or wherever your panel is.  The difference is the GFI has a MUCH FASTER response time than the basement breaker, which makes it "safer" around water.  But that's all a GFI is, same as a basement breaker, just more sensitive.

It's interesting how GFCIs are misunderstood :)

GFCI = Ground Fault Circuit Interruper. The way it works is quite different from breaker. Breaker monitors the total current in the hot wire and trips when the current exceeds certain limit (e.g. 15A).

GFCI on the other hand monitors the difference of currents in the hot wire (black) and neutral (white). If there is any disparity (even a few milliampers), it disconnects the circuit. The reasoning behind this is the following. Normally all the current that is sent to a device through the hot wire returns through the neutral wire. If, for example, the hot wire is in contact with water and you stick your hand in the tank, some current will go through your body. This means that the current going through the hot wire will be larger than that in the neutral. And that's what will trip GFCI. If you rely only on breaker, you need to get 15A of current through your body before it trips (you will be a nice brown toast by then). With GFCI, a few milliampers will be enough (you would hardly feel that).

See here for more: http://home.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm or here: http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_gfcis_work/

Could check this out for the Red Sea 400: http://www.dtpetsupplies.com/catalog/Heaters/Cable-Heaters/Low-Voltage-Cable-Heaters/Red-Sea-Root-Therm-400-Root-Heating-Cable/

Thanks I'll check out the link.

Quote from: alexv on November 19, 2008, 03:39:37 PM
It's interesting how GFCIs are misunderstood :)

GFCI = Ground Fault Circuit Interruper. The way it works is quite different from breaker. Breaker monitors the total current in the hot wire and trips when the current exceeds certain limit (e.g. 15A).

GFCI on the other hand monitors the difference of currents in the hot wire (black) and neutral (white). If there is any disparity (even a few milliampers), it disconnects the circuit. The reasoning behind this is the following. Normally all the current that is sent to a device through the hot wire returns through the neutral wire. If, for example, the hot wire is in contact with water and you stick your hand in the tank, some current will go through your body. This means that the current going through the hot wire will be larger than that in the neutral. And that's what will trip GFCI. If you rely only on breaker, you need to get 15A of current through your body before it trips (you will be a nice brown toast by then). With GFCI, a few milliampers will be enough (you would hardly feel that).

See here for more: http://home.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm or here: http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_gfcis_work/

Ok, but other than that they are the same... LOL... geesh, now I've gone and learned something, and I personally blame you...   Thanks for the details.. I was really just quoting what I heard on Homes on Homes...

Quote from: Hookup on November 19, 2008, 08:30:20 PM
Ok, but other than that they are the same... LOL... geesh, now I've gone and learned something, and I personally blame you...   Thanks for the details.. I was really just quoting what I heard on Homes on Homes...

I'm glad I've been accused of actually 'teaching' someone :) Usually it's the other way around.

Quote from: dan2x38 on November 19, 2008, 07:58:41 PM
Could check this out for the Red Sea 400: http://www.dtpetsupplies.com/catalog/Heaters/Cable-Heaters/Low-Voltage-Cable-Heaters/Red-Sea-Root-Therm-400-Root-Heating-Cable/

I didn't know they were making 40W version too. But you gave me a good idea. I started searching more and here is what I dug up - a Hydor Hydrokable 100 watt Heating System  (http://www.petsandponds.com/securestore/c231238p16842148.2.html). At least at 100W and 10m in length, that's so far the best thing I've seen so far. And a price of $50 canadian isn't too bad... Definitely beats 20W Red Sea's at BigAls at 100W :)

Quote from: alexv on November 19, 2008, 08:37:37 PM
I didn't know they were making 40W version too. But you gave me a good idea. I started searching more and here is what I dug up - a Hydor Hydrokable 100 watt Heating System  (http://www.petsandponds.com/securestore/c231238p16842148.2.html). At least at 100W and 10m in length, that's so far the best thing I've seen so far. And a price of $50 canadian isn't too bad... Definitely beats 20W Red Sea's at BigAls at 100W :)

2 of those would rock. I have the Red Sea 400. I bought it Boxing Day at BA $80 with tax I think.

Quote from: dan2x38 on November 19, 2008, 08:41:07 PM
2 of those would rock. I have the Red Sea 400. I bought it Boxing Day at BA $80 with tax I think.

You think one 100W heater wouldn't be enough for my 6'x2' substrate? I currently have the Red Sea 160 (20W) in my 55 gal (4'x1') and when I stick my finger deep in the sand I can feel it's noticeably warmer in there...

God I am not sure. At that price it might be just worth it have the 2. At the cost your looking at an extra $50 is not much... ;) If you had just one it might be a strain on the tranformer. Also the cable would have to be spread futher apart than recommended.

Quote from: dan2x38 on November 19, 2008, 08:56:22 PM
God I am not sure. At that price it might be just worth it have the 2. At the cost your looking at an extra $50 is not much... ;) If you had just one it might be a strain on the tranformer. Also the cable would have to be spread futher apart than recommended.

Hydrokable doesn't actually have any transformers. It's just always on with direct power. It could be connected through a thermostat like this one: Hydor Hydroset (http://www.petsandponds.com/securestore/c231238p16842149.2.html)

Only thing if it is not enough you can't add another later.  8)

Nice looking setup AlexV!

Are those abs fittings heading into the basement?

I like your stand a lot too.

Quote from: dan2x38 on November 19, 2008, 09:08:42 PM
Only thing if it is not enough you can't add another later.  8)

That is very true. But my view of this is the following: many people don't do any substrate heating at all. The worst that could happen if I have not enough heating is that... well... I'd be like everyone else... But if I have too much heating, well, I think that could be quite bad. :)

The tank is in. It took 5 people to bring this thing inside and put it on the stand :)

[attachment deleted by admin]

Wow....this is the first time that I've looked at this thread. That's a great project. Your stand looks fantastic. What are you planning on putting in the tank?

Nice job.

Jeff

Quote from: Jeff1192 on November 30, 2008, 07:09:56 AM
Wow....this is the first time that I've looked at this thread. That's a great project. Your stand looks fantastic. What are you planning on putting in the tank?

Nice job.

Jeff

First of all, I'll move all my fish from my three tanks into this one, so that would be:
- Tiger barbs x3
- Neon tetra x4
- Clown loach x1
- Yoyo loach x3
- Kuhli loach x1
- African glass fish x3
- Rosy tetra x2
- Dwarf gourami x2
- Oto cats x1
- SAE x4
- Red Line Torpedo barbs x4
- Amano & Cherry shrimp (x many)

Of course, I'll add more fish of these kinds (kuhlis, otos, neons, etc), to make those individuals more comfortable.

Then I was thinking to add:
- Rummynose tetra
- Harlequin rasbora

Then I'll see how everything goes and add some more fish. I think i'll have more fish of the same kind than a few fishes of many kinds, if that makes any sense.

The 55 gal that I'm freeing will ultimately host polypterus sinegalus (http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/e_senegalus.php) and Potamotrygon motoro (http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/e_Potamotrygon_motoro.php). At least that's what I'm thinking, not sure if I ever actually do it (never had carnivores like that :)). But I surely love those fishes.

The 33 gal, 10 gal and 5 gal are going to go, so I'll be left with just two tanks... I will likely keep 10 gal as a Q-tank in the basement, but that's about it...

nice setup, I have the same tank  :) buit into my basement wall. All your fish are gonna love the room they will soon have !  And as for the polypterus sinegalus, don't be afraid to get one, I have one and she is a great fish, you just have to remember, if it fits in its mouth it will wind up there!

Looks nice.  Only thing I'm concerned about is your freshwater ray for the 55 gallon.  It says they can get up to 90cm and need a 1000L tank at least. 

Quote from: Adam on November 30, 2008, 10:23:37 PM
Looks nice.  Only thing I'm concerned about is your freshwater ray for the 55 gallon.  It says they can get up to 90cm and need a 1000L tank at least. 

I tend to agree :) I have looked on the internet a bit and they do tend to say that they grow pretty large... Maybe I mixed the species. I just read a book Jurassic fishes (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Jurassic-Fishes/Haruto-Kodera/p/9780793800865), and the ray species I was thinking of is told to be Ok in 55 gal... I'll double-check to see if I was mistaken...

Looks very nice in place. It is going to look so cool set-up.

I would be worried about the shrimp with the Tiger barbs they likely will eat them. I love the Tiger barbs I have a Tiger tank... how about some Odessa barbs they are so cool.

I guess it's time for some updates. :)

My light fixture I bought on eBay has also arrived. It's a 72" hood with 8x 80W T5 bulbs. The seller actually took good care of packaging it. It came in a wooden crate, well wrapped in Styrofoam and bubble wrap. I also bought additional 16 bulbs since the 80W T5s are kind of hard to find and at about $20 a piece it's a good price too:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand27.jpg&hash=d50c1cb385fd48367d3ff654e3b26e139a947718)

It seems to provide plenty of light for my future plants (will have to see when I actually have substrate and plants in it). And the 12 blue moonlight LEDs look much better than in my other fixtures on 55 and 33g tanks.

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand21.jpg&hash=dd1c33562edc9289022949eb3e2082102c2ad6d5)

I have finished the plumbing for the system yesterday, yay! Sniggir was nice enough to come to my place and drill the sump tank the other day.

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand23.jpg&hash=16adb8ae50a68b06fa53dd35e0afe3890625f344)

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand24.jpg&hash=81c9ff93c1975bc5122f08536eca2476f758cfa4)

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand25.jpg&hash=490a144442f6592d998d1585c9b34e43a14bf084)

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand26.jpg&hash=1a2a3ac6b968cc29d209c7223787f8075a282687)

Today I filled the whole system for the first time and tried it out.

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand22.jpg&hash=4e9970b95720594ead2c58303040439b1172099f)

There were a few things that went wrong though. For one, the acrylic baffles I installed in the sump all went to a better place... Note to self: using 1/8" (edit: actually it turned out to be just 1/16") acrylic on a 18" wide tank was a bad idea. It buckles even under slightest pressure. Another note to self: silicone doesn't bond too well with acrylic :)

Anyway, when I added water to the sump, the baffles started to buckle and after the pump was turned on they eventually gave way and detached from silicone and fell down... I also realized that my sump is on a smaller size... Even though I've been warned here before about giving proper volume to the last compartment where the pump takes the water from, and even though I gave almost half of the volume of my 40g sump to it, the pump would almost empty it and start to suck some air in before enough water comes down from the tank to begin the cycle... Here is my original sump design.

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fsump1.png&hash=7ca613340165dc8c1490b8dd99d872e5b7438c9f)

It's probably a good thing that my baffles failed... I will have to redesign the sump layout with my new findings in mind. I will remove the last baffle and eliminate the compartment that houses the heater. This will open up the volume of the last section to be up to the filter section. I will also play with the sizes of the compartments to maximize the volume of the last section...

Another problem was a few leaks that I detected in my plumbing. Most of them were in places where thread joints were used (like some ball valves, or the pump connections). I easily fixed that with more teflon tape. However one leak puzzled me a bit... It's at the 1.5" bulkhead that leads to the drain. Apparently the hole drilled was a bit too big for the size of the bulkhead I had. The rubber seal has two concentric ridges and the diameter of the hole was roughly the diameter of the innermost ridge (maybe even a bit bigger). This probably doesn't allow the gasket to seal properly and a slow leak occurred... I'm not quite sure how to fix it yet. I tried to re-seat the seal a couple of time... Maybe when I resolve all the other issues I'll use some silicone in there... I'd hate to do that, but I'm not sure what other options I might have...

And another issue concerns with the noise the water flow causes... I know that I have used ABS pipes that are supposedly the loudest. I will have to fiddle with some wrap-on insulation to see if I can deaden the sound... The tank has Durso stand-pipes on returns and I kind of thing they weren't properly made... They produce quite a loud hissing noise from the air sucked into the vent hole... I tried to play with the size of the vent opening but it doesn't help too much and when closed too much siphon effect happens and sucks water out of the overflow box with crazy speed :) I will have to see what can be done about that... Maybe I will end up redoing the stand-pipes...

Now, my question of the day... Any suggestions on where to get glass cut for baffles? I think using glass instead of acrylic on a glass sump tank would be a better choice...

Ok, I (almost) solved the noise issue. I bought some fiberglass pipe insulation from HomeDepot and wrapped the drain pipes. This cut down on the water noise significantly... There is still some noise but it is at an 'ok' level right now...

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand29.jpg&hash=66ca721ccc5c8383171f3c266d30eeeb50e7e882)

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand30.jpg&hash=be7aef816280d49f2b4350e78ffd9c5d45efdb91)

I will also wrap the return lines too. It produces no noise, but this should help with heat insulation of the pipes (should cut down on some water heating costs down the road). I also plan to use a spray-painted stryrofoam backing on the main tank. This would give the color background and provide insulation too...

I also had the glass baffles cut for my sump. I just called a few glass places from the Yellow Pages. Costed me $40 for 4 baffles...

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand28.jpg&hash=00ecc04d74dd62f87ca7f53c78fd3b3aafdd7d6e)

Now I'm testing the whole system and cleaning it of dirt or any other contaminants that might have been on pipes, etc... After a few days I will drain the tank and it will be ready for the real thing...

I still need to complete the automatic water change drip system. And to attach a closed loop to my sump for UV sterilizer/CO2 injection... But that can happen a bit later...

The system has been running for a couple days now without noticeable problems. I resealed some of the threaded pipe connections at the pump to eliminate tiny leaks, but other than that it's Ok. It's insane how much teflon tape those threaded connections take... :)

Today I have also finished the waterchange system. The filter is hooked up to the water supply line and the 4 L/h dripper is attached at the other end. So my system will cycle about 170 gallons/week of water right now. That's a bit too much for my overall system volume (about 250 gallons). I might get a 1/2 gph dripper from somewhere (couldn't find anything locally, ended buying the 1 gph one from LeeValley). I wonder if B&B Hydroponics might have something like that...

Here is the filter hooked up:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand31.jpg&hash=a3aaa5127232ba0939e434e86638369487cb4ae2)

I have also constructed the filter media holder for the sump (using eggcrate). Filled the sump with bioballs and added the heater... Now going to figure out how well the heater handles everything... So far it's been raising the temperature of the water by 1.5°C per hour. But that's my preliminary findings... Will monitor over time... And I'm sure more insulation on the tank and pipes will help as well...

in order to use less teflon tape, get the pink roll which is much thicker than the regular teflon tape. Well worth paying a little extra for the good stuff.

Quote from: groupie02 on December 28, 2008, 05:09:35 PM
in order to use less teflon tape, get the pink roll which is much thicker than the regular teflon tape. Well worth paying a little extra for the good stuff.

There is even a yellow one for large threaded joints.

Hmm, never saw any other type of the tape... That's definitely good to know for next projects :)

In meantime, I have mounted a piece of wood I collected last summer at a lake onto a piece of slate tile from HomeDepot... Ready to go into the tank... Right now it is soaking in the intermediate water in the tank (since it's not really a driftwood and it floats, even with the slate attached :)).

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand32.jpg&hash=c8a9d23467132884ea9143cea2c332d0e39fbd45)

I have more pieces of wood but I will see how this one works out before deciding on what to do with the rest of it...

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fdriftwood.jpg&hash=52535a8274e82f543486d91e59704e17373573a9)

Very nice piece of driftwood should look cool. Preston hardware carries them all & I've seen the pink at Home Depot not sure about the yellow. I use the pink often but the white is best for small fittings.

Well, today is the day! I have put in the substrate, driftwood and filled the tank with the water (the real one :)).

Here are a few pictures of the set up process...

I started with laying out the substrate heater cable... One thing I don't understand is why they included only 14 suction cups for a 10 meter cable... I needed maybe twice as many... Had to get creative at threading it around the driftwood to minimize the usage of those suction cups...

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand33.jpg&hash=ea6920ba72c131a9f592f2a79ea397998467fa2f)

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand34.jpg&hash=1314067694ce39c1aeb4661da35cca52faadf5e1)

Then I put some quartz sand to support the cables. I needed a bit more sand that I had but apparently you can't buy it at this time of year (HD has it in spring-summer time as 'play sand').

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand35.jpg&hash=90a5f3baf81cd3f33916f9746ee917c7e39b2053)

On top of the sand I put a layer of fine substrate (I have four 10 kg bags of those)...

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand36.jpg&hash=ee8b30f51901d4cd606de24bb4190ca98226640a)

Then three 7 kg bags of laterite I picked up at Big Al's during this year's Boxing Day sale:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand37.jpg&hash=a6b267a64fa3755d7a1f9154313900fec5ce2971)

To top it off, 6 more 10 kg bags of coarser substrate gravel:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand38.jpg&hash=abf669606e163a461c6857e050556224b19300bc)

And finally filling it with water:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand39.jpg&hash=ac49c33e755a8479b5af15d042b7aefd24a8dbc4)

Here is how it looks after putting the light fixture onto the tank:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand40.jpg&hash=d35ebd4a6ad8c64081b7f47753ef0e897b843ffa)

The water is a bit cloudy but it's clearing up pretty quickly...

I actually put a few of the first inhabitants into it! Some plants to deal with the excess of ammonia produced after neutralizing chloramines...

By the way, here is my sump working hard to clear up the water:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fsump.jpg&hash=211090a125454e53e8dcbf8608a0462bd5c07fa5)

And here is how the light fixture looks like (while I was mounting the legs onto it):

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Flight.jpg&hash=79b6dd85c36a4a0ed998cad0c412077d8ada4ee5)

It's really coming together. I agree about the suction cups for the heating cable. I have the same one for my 75 which is 48" x 18" foot print and thought there were to few. But once installed with substrate it ain't going anywhere. Oh be careful moving heavily rooted plants you don't pull up the cable or snap it.

Quote from: dan2x38 on December 29, 2008, 07:48:47 PM
Very nice piece of driftwood should look cool. Preston hardware carries them all & I've seen the pink at Home Depot not sure about the yellow. I use the pink often but the white is best for small fittings.

I believe the yellow Teflon tape is gas fitters tape rather than plumbers.

Quote from: Saltcreep on December 31, 2008, 11:17:45 AM
I believe the yellow Teflon tape is gas fitters tape rather than plumbers.

Good to know I Goggled it you are right. It says not to use white on gas fittings. I guess the pink or yellow is better for gas fittings like CO2. It is heavier than white it would still work on a plumbing fittings. Actually here is a link: http://www.acmehowto.com/howto/homemaintenance/plumbing/general/teflon.php

Quote from: dan2x38 on December 31, 2008, 07:07:02 PM
Good to know I Goggled it you are right. It says not to use white on gas fittings. I guess the pink or yellow is better for gas fittings like CO2. It is heavier than white it would still work on a plumbing fittings. Actually here is a link: http://www.acmehowto.com/howto/homemaintenance/plumbing/general/teflon.php

Cool. Thanks for the info... So I suppose one should look for it in a store close to the gas equipment, not in plumbing... That's probably why I never saw it before...

Back to the topic... Here is a pic of tank's first inhabitants. I'm dying to put the first fish in, but this hobby is all about patience... :( Ammonia readings are still high, so need to wait a few days..

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand41.jpg&hash=e390bc82ba218e3b4db4671b93ab556d37aaf7c5)

BTW, Happy New Year to everyone! :)

I guess I missed it your doing a fishless cycle?

Quote from: dan2x38 on December 31, 2008, 09:05:27 PM
I guess I missed it your doing a fishless cycle?

No, I will put a few fish in it, but the problem is that right now I have over 3 ppm ammonia in it. I don't want to put even the few fishes in until it goes down... I put a few seeded ponges from my other tank filters and a few plants to help deal with the ammonia (which is the result of neutralizing chloramines)... It shouldn't take long before I can put the fish in and really start to cycle the tank... And I think it won't be a long cycle with seeded filter media, plants, etc.

By the way, I will be looking for some plants. I guess I'll post a separate topic in classifieds shortly...

Quote from: alexv on December 31, 2008, 12:14:15 AM
substrate heater cable...

gotta say i look forward for looking up this thread. tank is coming along great. just curious.........why did u install a substrate heating cable. isnt the hang on heater enough to heat the aquarium ?

Quote from: alexv on December 31, 2008, 09:13:01 PM
No, I will put a few fish in it, but the problem is that right now I have over 3 ppm ammonia in it. I don't want to put even the few fishes in until it goes down... I put a few seeded ponges from my other tank filters and a few plants to help deal with the ammonia (which is the result of neutralizing chloramines)... It shouldn't take long before I can put the fish in and really start to cycle the tank... And I think it won't be a long cycle with seeded filter media, plants, etc.

By the way, I will be looking for some plants. I guess I'll post a separate topic in classifieds shortly...

Send me a PM if interested in some plants... there a few of us out here... ;)

Quote from: pminister on December 31, 2008, 09:21:09 PM
gotta say i look forward for looking up this thread. tank is coming along great. just curious.........why did u install a substrate heating cable. isnt the hang on heater enough to heat the aquarium ?

It's not really for heating up the water in the tank... I have a 1000W titanium heater in the sump for that :)

The idea is to keep the substrate a couple degrees above the temperature of the water. This will make water circulate through the substrate (since warmer water raises). This makes two things happen - eliminates anaerobic conditions and brings nutrients to the roots. At least this is a theory.

Quote from: alexv on December 31, 2008, 09:47:51 PM
It's not really for heating up the water in the tank... I have a 1000W titanium heater in the sump for that :)

The idea is to keep the substrate a couple degrees above the temperature of the water. This will make water circulate through the substrate (since warmer water raises). This makes two things happen - eliminates anaerobic conditions and brings nutrients to the roots. At least this is a theory.

They are great my plants love them. Another bonus they also reduce the time my heaters are on and the cable is only 40w.

Today I finally put some first fish in the tank! Now it is officially occupied. It hosts three Tiger Barbs and a pair of Rosy Tetras. They will help cycle the tank and I also want to watch the barbs' behaviour before I put more fish in the tank. They were held alone in a 10 gal tank before and haven't seen any other water creature before...

Well, after I had put the barbs in and then added the tetras, they seemed not to care too much about them. I also added a few dozen cherry shrimp. That seemed to have raised some interest/apetite in the barbs though. However after eating some number of smaller shrimp they seem to have satisfied their hunger. And after a while they stopped even bothering the other shrimp. I hope that they eventually get accustomed to the shrimp and won't eat them (too much :)). I also bet on the size of the tank and hopefully the plants that I'm going to put in will help protect the shrimp too (and more fish will keep the barbs more occupied/distracted).

Will see how it goes..

Now I need some plants to put in and I need them fast. I have noticed some green algae growing on the plants after only two days. A lot of light on an empty tank doesn't work too much... So far, I turned off some of the bulbs but I'd rather have more plants to compete with algae... :)

If you have some extra plants or you are planning your aqua-lawn maintenance soon, let me know. I have posted a list of plants I'd like to get here: http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=32949.0

Do you have your pressurized CO2 up & running?

Quote from: dan2x38 on January 02, 2009, 11:31:02 AM
Do you have your pressurized CO2 up & running?

No, not yet. Waiting for a pump (in the mail) and need to do some additional plumbing for it... But that should be done within a week.

Ok, the pump has arrived and I have finally finished the setup. I have connected a CO2 reactor and 36W UV sterilizer to the sump... It should help... Without CO2 and high light the water started to turn a bit green... Both sterilizer and CO2 injection will hopefully resolve the issue..

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand42.jpg&hash=8713ebf0ffcd49c12fcc4865a8665f6b37bf02b2)

By the way, here is how the tank looks now:

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand43.jpg&hash=4e5d6aaabcae9f59b886904549b6c39556a8019a)

Looks awesome!  Very jealous ;D

Do you find the lights are too bright when you're sitting down - that's always made me go for a custom hood on the top.

murgus

Quote from: murgus on January 07, 2009, 07:11:42 PM
Do you find the lights are too bright when you're sitting down - that's always made me go for a custom hood on the top.

No, not particularly. Some light does escape, but so far I'm not annoyed by this...

After a day of CO2 and ferts, the algal bloom has almost cleared... I'm still trying to tweak the CO2 rate, but so far I can't get it higher than approx 10 ppm... My tank is not covered yet, and the sump is covered just with a few pieces of acrylic... Will have to play with it and see if I can make the target of 30 ppm.

If you are using dry ferts be careful. Your plants are not established yet it takes awhile before they start up taking a lot of nutrients. If you are using or planning to use EI dosing start slow over a month or 2. I still think you will have an issue delivering the CO2 where your diffsuing it.

Quote from: alexv on December 31, 2008, 09:47:51 PM
It's not really for heating up the water in the tank... I have a 1000W titanium heater in the sump for that :)

The idea is to keep the substrate a couple degrees above the temperature of the water. This will make water circulate through the substrate (since warmer water raises). This makes two things happen - eliminates anaerobic conditions and brings nutrients to the roots. At least this is a theory.

Would subsrtate heater be enough to raise the water temperature in the main tank, or is it something to you play around with both heaters to have a balanced yet a higher temp for the substrate at the same time as u mentioned. Hope that makes sense.

By the way what is an "anaerobic conditions", does that has something do with gases or minerals being locked into the substrate and not having to circulate ???

Quote from: pminister on January 08, 2009, 05:26:46 PM
Would subsrtate heater be enough to raise the water temperature in the main tank, or is it something to you play around with both heaters to have a balanced yet a higher temp for the substrate at the same time as u mentioned. Hope that makes sense.

The 100W is a bit small for 200 gallon tank. On the package it says that if used as a main heater for the tank, it should be used on tanks up to 60 gallons or something like that.

I use the main 1000W heater in the sump for the water temperature. The 100W substrate heater just gives a bit of boost to the substrate to stay a bit warmer than the rest of the water. I use temperature sensors for both, so no playing around for the balance for me :)

QuoteBy the way what is an "anaerobic conditions", does that has something do with gases or minerals being locked into the substrate and not having to circulate ???

Anaerobic = without the presence of oxygen. Basically stagnation of the substrate where the oxygen doesn't get to... In those areas, roots start to decay, etc.

Ok, an update...

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand44.jpg&hash=c6d277394462726375fb1d97838552750a0aaa59)

The plants finally started to show some growth :) Still would have expected more growth from the stems than that, given the amount of light and fertilization... Can't still figure out what is out of balance here, but something clearly is... Some plants are doing OK (like Hornwort - had to cut it down twice already because it reached the surface and started to pile up at the top shading the bottom).

Still having algae problems though. Not as much as in the beginning, but most older leaves are still completely covered with dark brown layer of algae. Newer leaves are not as affected but still notice a thin layer of brown film forming on them.

Blyxa japonica's new leaves aren't green at all. More pale brownish color... Some new leaves of vallisneria are also quite transparent and almost colorless...

Not sure what is missing... I'm dosing dry ferts on the following schedule: Mon, Wed, Fri: NPK; Tue, Thu, Sat: Trace

NPK (1 dose - 3x a week):
KH2PO4 - 1 tsp (10g)
KNO3 - 3 tsp (36g)
MgSO4 - 3 tsp (25g)
K2SO4 - 1 tsp (11g)

Trace (1 dose - 3x a week):
Chelated trace mix from B&B Hydroponics - 1 tsp (5g)

CO2 is at about 20 ppm (my water KH is about 4°dGH and I'm trying to keep it at about 6.7-6.8 pH).

Had to play a bit with CO2 to minimize outgassing from the sump. Had to throttle down the pump a bit to reduce the current, added a tight lid to the sump and changed the return pipe (main tank->sump) configuration in the sump (horizontal along the water level vs the old vertical straight down).

With the total volume of about 800L of the system (~200-220 gal) I guess the fert levels are OK. I'm also running a 1 gph drip waterchange system which replaces about 170 gal weekly, so that's ~80% weekly water changes but constantly (not at one shot), so I guess some more fertilizers go down the drain than with the conventional water change method...

Anyway, I will watch how everything goes and see if any other adjustments are needed...

Plants when first transplanted suffer root shock. This can take weeks to over come. Clippings need to have time to root. This being said the ferts you are adding are not being used by the plants totally yet. I would back off on 3 doses a week. To start do one dose for 2 weeks, 2 doses for 2 weeks, and then if seeing good plant growth ramped up to 3. Even still using EA I do not always use the 3rd dose. I check the plants first to see if any algae staring to show.

The brown algae sounds like diatoms. These are very common in new set-ups. As things become balanced they usually go away. But they are also caused by to much phosphate and not enough nitrate.

Sorry to say but I think you are going to continue CO2 issues trying to diffuse it into the sump. I'd consider using a 'Y' joint in the return line connect the CO2 diffuser to it. Connect the 'Y' upside down /\  this will prevent the water pushing into the joint and the bypass water will suck up the input from the diffuser. I'd also use a check valve on the connection preventing back pressure.

Your CO2 should be at 30ppm. EI dosing is intended for tanks with heavy growth. I would do min. dosing until you have substantial growth.

Hi Alex, the tank is coming along nicely!

Quote from: dan2x38 on January 23, 2009, 08:08:53 AM
Plants when first transplanted suffer root shock. This can take weeks to over come.

Some plants like swords, crypts, lilies ... basically root feeders take some time to settle in. Stem plants should kick in right away.

Your fertilization seems to be quite generous to me too. And that the hornwort flourishs shows that there are no deficiencies here. I would lower the Epsom salt though (<1tsp, maybe 0.5), most plants prefer it softer. What you should ad is another source of calcium, I use calcium sulfate (gypsum), others use baking soda. The suggested dosing would be 1 Mg : 3 Ca.

Like Dan, I do also think that the CO2 is not at the level you expect it to be. The simple formula with the KH-pH-CO2 relationship does only apply for a rather small range of conditions. If I apply it to my water I would it tells me that I would have >120ppm CO2 (KH=3, pH=5.8 ) :) - well, it's not, it's barely somewhere between 20-30. There are two reliable methods that can be used to check the CO2 concentration: measure the pH change after 24h in a glass of water - it will be >1 if there is enough CO2 dissolved. The second one is the drop checker method, ideally with calibrated indicator solution.

I am usually adding otto's to my tanks, the will remove the diatoms in no time. Highly recommended, as any diatom growth on new plants really slow down the growth.

I have to agree that the method you are using to check your CO2 levels does have some issues & can be completly misleading, i`m also inclined to believe the bulk of your algae & growth issues are tied into CO2 levels as the primary reason with perhaps some secondary ones .
I noticed you said you have now completely sealed the sump, that should really help with your co2 out gassing that is so common with sump systems, another thing worth trying is cutting back some of the light intensity, since the higher the light intensity the more CO2 is required & everything else related , 640 watts of light on a tank with that much surface  area is a lot of light.
Regards

sweet another update. tanks looks amazing, though i can't offer much help on this topic as i am a freshman when it comes to planted tanks. learning though which is key  :D

by the way which fishes are these.........they look neat.



[attachment deleted by admin]

Sorry Alex I forgot to add it is looking awesome excellent job. I am envious great toy... or set-up I mean...  8)

Thanks guys for all your suggestions... I have these thoughts:

- Regarding measuring CO2 levels - I'm running a pH controller which is a bit more accurate at measuring pH than a solution. I also think to combine the two approaches. I'm going to put a vessel with 4 degrees KH solution and put the pH controller electrode into it and cover everything with a cap to seal from air. This should act just as a drop checker but using pH controller to check the pH level. No need to replace the solution every few weeks (except for recalibrating the monitor every few months)... The only thing I need to figure out is to select the vessel which is small enough in volume to put the electrode in (so that it is more responsive to CO2 level changes)... Other than that it should work beautifully.

- pminister: These are Red-Line Torpedo barb (Puntius Denisonii). I have 4 of them and love them :)

- fischkopp: I do have some oto cats (I think 7 of them). But they can't keep up, I guess. About dosing Ca - that's a good idea. I actually have Ca(NO3)2 poweder. I can reshuffle the quantities of KNO3 and K2SO4 to replace some of KNO3 for Ca(NO3)2 (to balance nitrates) and then change K2SO4 to re-introduce the lost K+.

My Echinodorus Uruguayensis started to grow nicely. And dan2x38, the bulb of the Tiger Lotus that you gave me now has about 7 beautiful leaves on it :) Hairgrass started to spread a bit but some blades are still covered with diatoms. Blyxa Japonica is my main concern since it has barely any green color to it.... It still grows though...

I'm not sure that having 640W of light is all that much. Maybe now since the plants are not fully grown, but you need to consider that the tank is 30" high... A lot of light is lost in the water depth (like 60% per 50 cm or something - if I remember correctly the quote from Aquarium Plants by Christel Kasselmann (I loved that book by the way :))).

Anyway, I will do some water testing tonight for NO3, Fe, PO4 and see where I stand on concentration.

You also need to keep in mind my constant water change regime... Unlike conventional method of doing one big change at the end of the week where the plants have a chance to consume pretty much everything you put in for the whole week and then remove the excess in one shot, in my case some part of ferts are drained off constantly, so the actual amount of nutrients available to plants will be somewhat smaller...

I'll keep you updated on the progress.

Quote from: alexv on January 23, 2009, 05:06:35 PM
- pminister: These are Red-Line Torpedo barb (Puntius Denisonii). I have 4 of them and love them :)

A bit off-topic but I just read here (http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=1955) that my poor Puntius Denisonii is banned for export now... I'll have to hold on to mine with extra strength :)

Quote from: alexv on January 23, 2009, 05:11:41 PM
A bit off-topic but I just read here (http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=1955) that my poor Puntius Denisonii is banned for export now... I'll have to hold on to mine with extra strength :)

speaking of these fishes. where did u acquire them from recently? or u had them from your previous tank. also when they breed........i don't mind buying some  ;)

Quote from: pminister on January 23, 2009, 06:23:13 PM
speaking of these fishes. where did u acquire them from recently? or u had them from your previous tank. also when they breed........i don't mind buying some  ;)

I bought them a few years ago (as juveniles) from SuperPet (before they became Petsmart which I hate now :) - but that's a different topic). They were quite pricey (like $15 a piece or something). They lived in my 55 gallon tank until now. I'm sure they appreciate the additional swimming room of the bigger tank.

And I don't think they breed in captivity (at least without special efforts like hormones etc), but I may be wrong about it... I know that mine haven't attempted breeding (yet)...

But my Corydoras Sterbai and Hyphessobrycon Rosaceus have spawned a few times in the new tank already. I guess they are liking it there too :)

Quote from: alexv on January 23, 2009, 05:06:35 PM
- Regarding measuring CO2 levels - I'm running a pH controller which is a bit more accurate at measuring pH than a solution. I also think to combine the two approaches. I'm going to put a vessel with 4 degrees KH solution and put the pH controller electrode into it and cover everything with a cap to seal from air. This should act just as a drop checker but using pH controller to check the pH level. No need to replace the solution every few weeks (except for recalibrating the monitor every few months)... The only thing I need to figure out is to select the vessel which is small enough in volume to put the electrode in (so that it is more responsive to CO2 level changes)... Other than that it should work beautifully.

I believe that your pH controller measures the pH just fine. :) However, the problem is that the pH/KH relation itself is not exact to measure the CO2 in our aquarium. The formula assumes, that all acids lowering the pH originate from CO2 only. Unfortunately, there are other sources of acids present, humic acid for example. These will lower the pH in addition to CO2, so that you will calculate a much higher CO2 concentration than actually present. If you say, that your CO2 is at 20ppm based on pH and KH, then you know now that it is actually much lower. That why I brought up the calculation for my tank: the formula tells me 130 ppm, reality is around 30 ppm though.

I digged up some links because I am not be so good in explaining these things because I miss a bit of the details in between. Happy reading :)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/77587-ph-controller-v-s-constant-co2.html (http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/77587-ph-controller-v-s-constant-co2.html)
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2818-drop-checkers-co2-indicators-why-how.html (http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2818-drop-checkers-co2-indicators-why-how.html)

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200611/msg00121.html (http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200611/msg00121.html)

Quote from the last website:

QuoteCO2 ppm measurement methods have been increasingly subjected to
critical assessment in the Aquarium plant tank hobby. During
this phase, many hobbyists have noted wide ranging difference in
their measured CO2 ppm concentrations vs the actual tank
observations from both plants and fish. Some report ranges of
upwards of 200ppm of CO2 based on the pH/KH/CO2 cart. But fish
health and plant growth was normal, when they lower the CO2
assumed concentration to 60-120ppm, they had BBA outbreaks. The
hobbyistys had pH monitors that where calibrated. KH test have
some issues potentially though(see below). Such readings
underscore the issues resolving the CO2 concentration
determination with any accuracy that we can have some trust and
faith in being correct.

The chart *assumes* that all the influences are due to KH and
CO2 concentrations.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the chart itself.
What is problematic for aquarist is the application in our tanks
under a wide range of conditions.

Non bicarbonate alkalinity, test kits that measure total
alkalinity rather than specifically bicarbonate alkalinty,
issues with pH: non CO2 acids depressing pH lower giving false
positive readings, erroring to skew the pH/KH/CO2 chart in
showing there is a lot more CO2 than is really there.

Quote from: fischkopp on January 24, 2009, 12:08:48 AM
I believe that your pH controller measures the pH just fine. :) However, the problem is that the pH/KH relation itself is not exact to measure the CO2 in our aquarium. The formula assumes, that all acids lowering the pH originate from CO2 only. Unfortunately, there are other sources of acids present, humic acid for example.

Oh, I understand the concept. That's why I said that I will create my own "drop checker" using the controller. I will have the electrode in the standard 4° KH solution (distilled water and baking soda) which will be covered by a jar and everything put into the sump. The established CO2 balance in the air inside the jar will bring the pH of the standard solution and I will know that there is no other sources of acidity in that solution but CO2...

Same principle as the drop checker but instead of pH test fluid I will use a pH controller which will require no weekly maintenance (except for occasional recallibration).

That was what I tried to say :)

Gotcha, seems like my eyes were a bit tired last night.  ;)  Sounds like an interesting little (and tricky) project actually. Hope you post some pics, once you are done.

By the way, I bought a standard drop checker from Big Al's today to keep CO2 in check... It went nice and green after putting it in... I used just a tap water which is around 4° KH according to my test kit. I will eventually prepare a standard solution myself but for now this seems to be a good starting point.

I also tried the other way of checking CO2 levels. The pH in the tank is 6.7. I removed some water and let it sit overnight in a jar. I checked pH the next morning and it was 7.6. I suppose that is close enough to the target.

I did check other levels and it turned out that phosphates are quite high (about 5 ppm). I will cut down on KH2PO4. Nitrates are about 10 ppm, so I could add some more. I will use Ca(NO3)2 to supplement both additional NO3 and Ca as suggested by fischkopp.

Fe is around 1 ppm, so that's good. By the way, the plant growth seems to be improving and both Blyxa japonica and the moss on the wood seems to turn greener...

BTW, the Anubias nana produced a second flower :)

Quote from: alexv on January 25, 2009, 07:36:43 PM
By the way, I bought a standard drop checker from Big Al's today to keep CO2 in check... It went nice and green after putting it in... I used just a tap water which is around 4° KH according to my test kit. I will eventually prepare a standard solution myself but for now this seems to be a good starting point.

I did a comparison of tap water vs. calibrated 4dKH solution using two drop checkers in the same tank at the same time. The tap water indicator showed a higher concentration, a quite yellowish green while the calibrated one was more on the dark green side. Hope this helps. :)

Just a little update... The tank is going pretty well. The plants are growing quite quickly. The tiger lotus has leaves of about 7-8 inches in diameter.

I still have some algae problems... Cannot nail down the correct dosage of ferts I presume. Working on it...

(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberonplace.com%2Faqua%2Fimages%2Fstand45.jpg&hash=9ecdd656aca97a1ea9bf58dd60835e4c94365158)

Nice coming together! The Lotus prune the leaves before they get to the top. It takes awhile but you can train the plant. If they come to the top they grow the size of a dinner plate and block out the light.