OVAS

As one of the original designers and developers of the interactive OVAS website, I'd like to say that I am very disappointed with the recent discision to block the classified to outside users.

The original idea of the OVAS website was to attract new members to the OVAS community, by allowing them to interact with club members, and to show that the club is an open community whose primary motivation is a common interest in aquariums. The classified where an integral part of this concept.

When the interactive site first went online, OVAS had less than 18 paid members. Yes, I said 18. In fact it may have been 13. By opening the site to the public, this allowed the community to discover the club, and interact with the membership. Within 4 years our membership grew to over 100. In fact, I believe I am correct that it recently grew to over 200. This is because of the interaction between members and non-members.

This is mostly to do with being open and inviting to non-members, and allowing people to meet personally before deciding whether to join OVAS. The classified where a major part of this bringing together of area fish fans. Members, in their own homes or the homes of others, acted as salemen for the club, and it worked.

With the classified now closed from non-members, a major portion of the web strategy and the raison-d'etre for the website has been stifled.

Last year, I was not a member of OVAS - I had several other pressing issues to deal with, so I never got a membership. I did sell a few things through the website, though, which helped keep my aquarium friendships going.

It was on coming here to pay for a membership for the 2010-2011, that I discovered the change of rules for the club website.

Now that I am a paid member of the club again, i would like to encourage that the classified again be re-opened to all. Classified are a benefit to all members, whether the posters are members or not - and they show our willingness to embrace the larger aquarium-keeeper community here.

Thanks for reading my suggestions.

David Patte
President, OVAS, 2002

I Agree

I couldn't agree more David.....a poor decision.

Nelson Plamondon
Former OVAS Executive Chairperson

Agree 100%. There have been a lot of poor decisions made recently. I imagine a number of these decisions will have to be reversed if this website / club is to remain successful.

Well said, dpatte!

Don't be surprised if the membership volume drops in the upcoming session. I was ready to join when August comes around but I've since reconsidered after reading about the recent changes.

i aswell agree

I agree with you as well  :(

I also agree. Since these changes I don't even feel like coming on here anymore. I also don't agree in removing the off topic forum.

Very well said! And so far your comments haven't been "reported" and censored !
Hopefully, if everyone continues to make their opinions known in a calm, rational manner the executive may see the light and admit their mistakes.

Gord 

I also agree, with the changes to the classifieds and the removal of the lounge, I now spend a fraction of the time I used to spend on this site - a very disappointing decision...

I personally feel that the classified were what attracted a lot of people to the site initially and that the lounge helped foster a sense of community.

Quote from: beertech on July 15, 2010, 11:12:05 AM
Very well said! And so far your comments haven't been "reported" and censored !
Hopefully, if everyone continues to make their opinions known in a calm, rational manner the executive may see the light and admit their mistakes.

Gord 

The actions that were taken by the Exec. were not done lightly nor with malice intended to disrupt the forum. There were just continual blatant violations of the rules and constant intervention by the Exec. to prevent further escalating problems. Sanctions were put in place to deal with individuals and they circumnavigated those. The worst two sections of the site were the two that had to be addressed, and its unfortunate that some feel the way they do, but I can't say it was a mistake.
The Exec. is not trying to destroy any community involvement in the hobby. On the contrary we are working diligently to try and attract new members to the club. We want to make the meetings a very valuable aspect of the club and encourage any hobbyist to become involved. There are still way to many that believe OVAS is just this website. The real education about the hobby is learned through direct interaction amongst fellow hobbyists and qualified speakers. We appreciate the fact that not everyone can attend our meetings, but we are always looking for new ways to bring people together to share the hobby. The website is a great source of individuals and their knowledge and experience, but unfortunately it is a venue for a very few who use it to personally attack, threaten and create hostility. The Exec. has to react in a responsible and appropriate manner. We purposely took these steps before the last election so that those who were opposed could express their views and either run for the many available positions or at least take the floor and express them.

What the exec has decided is up to the exec to decide, and the members to judge. A good healthy dicussion of issues in the club is good for the whole club.

In my opinion, moderating the site is a necessary evil of any site, but blocking the classifieds is a totally unrelated issue which takes away from the opennesss of the site. The exec may have decided, but as the decision its not written into the constitution, it can be overturned without a constitutional crisis. :)

There will always be a few people who circumvent the rules, and cause problems, but its a shame that the decision to close certain forums from the public - when they actively help bring well-intended members and non-members together - was the action chosen as a solution to moderation issues.

+1 to OP

I think if you have a decent amount of posts on the forum 20+ or something like that then you should be able to post on the forum.  If your post count is high due to irrelevant posts then you don't deserve to but I don't think people are going to waste their time posting 20+ , 30+, 40+ posts just to post on the classifieds.  Personally my time is worth more then that.  I could just go to usedottawa, kijiji, craigslist, etc.. to post it.  So if someone truly contributes to the community then they should have earned the privilege to post in the classifieds.  Instead of having to pay for it.  

But thats just my Honest Opinion :)

The disadvantage to requiring a certain number of posts is the same as I mentioned earlier. It blocked well intentioned potential members from meeting real members face-to-face.

If someone arrives in town, discovers the club site, and asks to buy some fish from the members, should he be told he isn't yet good enough to post?

If a person leaves the hobby and decides to list his items for sale, should the site members not be able to see his listings here?

Certainly, if someone is a persistant troublemaker on the site, he can be warnd to cool things down, but i feel its incorrect to punish every potential ovas member just because a few might be troublemakers.

Quote from: dpatte on July 15, 2010, 01:41:59 PM
What the exec has decided is up to the exec to decide, and the members to judge. A good healthy dicussion of issues in the club is good for the whole club.

In my opinion, moderating the site is a necessary evil of any site, but blocking the classifieds is a totally unrelated issue which takes away from the opennesss of the site. The exec may have decided, but as the decision its not written into the constitution, it can be overturned without a constitutional crisis. :)

There will always be a few people who circumvent the rules, and cause problems, but its a shame that the decision to close certain forums from the public - when they actively help bring well-intended members and non-members together - was the action chosen as a solution to moderation issues.

I absolutely agree that its unfortunate to take the actions that were necessary. Moderating the site has become a constant, tireless and painful experience for those of us on the Exec. who didn't sign up to babysit a website. We've spent hours and hours at Exec. meetings trying to deal with it, we've had to call the police on several occasions to deal with death threats, we've had to spend valuable time away from out hobby, family even workplace trying to keep everything in order. No one on this Exec. can afford the time necessary to deal with these moderation issues. What's hard to believe is how some individuals behave dealing with something as simple as a tropical fish club.
We've lost some really good people recently who were absolutely dedicated to help run this club. I know that many of them just couldn't deal with the constant frustration of the few who feel obligated to cause problems on this site.

Quote from: markw on July 15, 2010, 02:03:43 PM
I absolutely agree that its unfortunate to take the actions that were necessary.

Though I'm sure the executive felt that some solution to site moderation was required, I'm not convinced that the correct solution was taken. I hope that the executive is open to listening to other suggestions from the members. I'd be pleased to be invited to an executive meeting some time to discuss the problems with the site, and come back later with some possible other solutions.

why weren't those few ip's not banned and problem solved. If you guys can't handle the work load I am sure a lot of people on here would give some time up to moderate some of the forums.

Quote from: 93GTCANADA on July 15, 2010, 02:17:47 PM
why weren't those few ip's not banned and problem solved. If you guys can't handle the work load I am sure a lot of people on here would give some time up to moderate some of the forums.

You can't just ban ips. Most internet accounts that people use in the area come through providers that use a large block of ip# that are shared amonst the users. Banning an ip may actually ban several other users from the same provider.

not my problem lol. But honestly if they need help to moderate they should just ask. That's what other forums do.

Why do I get the sinking feeling that this discussion is never going to go away. Every month or so another thread like this pops up. In my opinion it has been discussed to death. The Exec did what they thought was best to better the web-site and thus the club. Not everyone agrees with the decision but it has been done.  If you really don't agree with it you can always run for the exec next time and change it. However, this decision was made before the recent elections and I think everyone involved in the decision that ran for another term on the Exec was re-elected so I think most members agree with the decision made. I think that the best thing for the club at this point is to move on.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff

Quote from: Jeff1192 on July 15, 2010, 04:10:38 PM
Why do I get the sinking feeling that this discussion is never going to go away. Every month or so another thread like this pops up. In my opinion it has been discussed to death. The Exec did what they thought was best to better the web-site and thus the club. Not everyone agrees with the decision but it has been done.  If you really don't agree with it you can always run for the exec next time and change it. However, this decision was made before the recent elections and I think everyone involved in the decision that ran for another term on the Exec was re-elected so I think most members agree with the decision made. I think that the best thing for the club at this point is to move on.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff...well said. Let's just let it go before more of Exec. call it quits with all this frustration. If you want to keep re-hashing it wait till a week before the next elections!

Quote from: markw on July 15, 2010, 02:03:43 PM
...we've had to call the police on several occasions to deal with death threats...

If you've received death threats and the Police were called, surely whoever made them would have at least received a visit from the Police, yes?  Their forum account would be banned, yes?

And +1 to 93GT - If help is needed moderating the forum, then get some help.  Ask for submissions or simply pick some users/members that you feel can be trusted and ask them if they want to do it.  I think 10 would be a good number.  I get the sense that it's felt only the Exec or the Webmaster can be trusted to moderate, or perhaps trusted at all, but nothing could be further from the truth.  If you have a Mod that steps out of line, then they aren't a Mod any more.  Easy.

The OVAS forum is a vibrant, wonderful thing.  To me, it is the online embodiment of the club.  I support the club to support the forum, as meetings of any sort don't generally interest me.  Don't forget about me and the others like me when you feel that this website is a nuisance.  I would say that attendance of this forum on a daily basis far outstrips attendance of just about any in-person meeting ever held by OVAS.  I believe I have no less a sense of community or participation than anyone else, and in this I feel that those like me aren't getting the respect we deserve.

If you have abusive users, ban them.  People report stuff for stupid reasons or because they have an axe to grind, ban them.  People post advertisements, ban them.  Ad hominem attacks, ban.  It's real easy.

5 days on first offence, a month on second offence, permanent on third.  It's pretty simple, and most forums on the Interwebs work something like that.  Someone that's banned shows up again with a new name, ban them again.  Eventually most people will get the message, though you will always have troublemakers that will not - such is the price of presumed anonymity.

I will conclude by saying that implementing measures meant to take things "back to the good ol' days" will only alienate people.  Times change and people's needs change, and if anything is to survive change it must adapt rather than resist.  It is better for a branch to bend in the wind than to resist it and break.

If you made it to here, thanks for reading.

Well done Daryl, never knew you could write so well, kinda like you're smart or something......

I agree with daryl and I am one of those people but I dont have a membership or support the club because i dont think it fits my needs. (saltwater) i've said it before we dont get the attention needed so i will not support something that doesnt support me.

As a new member, I have a few observations (not to open another can of worms):

Why not allow members to make the vote on whether or not the classifieds should be open to non-members?  Or open the sales to club members for 24 hours first before offering it to the rest of the forum members.  I came to this site looking for friends, but now feel like I'm a kid whose parents are going through a divorce (not to offend anyone divorced). 

Tyler.L: Why not create a branch in meetings to involve more salt-water oriented members?  If you have any ideas on how to run these I would be very interested in helping.  I will gladly support you as a club member(me) if you are willing to take some action to make this club more positive and member friendly (I am not implying that it is not friendly or positive or that you are negative...)

I agree with Funkmotor regarding the ban on abusive members.  If someone kept coming into my home to yell obscene or obnoxious comments I would no longer answer the door.  If they tried the backdoor, I would still lock them out!   I will offer to help moderate posts if that is what is needed to stop this drama.

I cannot believe someone would stoop so low to send death threats over a fish forum/club.  Maybe they should spend more time watching their tanks and less time being angry at the world. 

I joined here because I wanted to meet some cool people and to talk about my favourite hobby!  Not to be reminded of the high school he-said, she-said comments.  Come on people!  Didn't we grow out of that stage?! (not to offend any high-school individuals who are mature and not petty).

Please let me know what I can do to help make this club user-friendly and to show individuals how positive and calming fish keeping is.  I really really love this hobby.  Fish keeping is a large part of my life, and it really doesn't need to be this dramatic. 

Else if you are looking for the more dramatic option: Change the site to members only.  Allow non-members to view, but not post.  If you choose to become a member, you must provide a working email address (one that cannot be used for multiple accounts). 

I love fish and fish keeping.  I hate drama and people that get cocky when placed in front of a computer monitor. 

I apologize in advance to anyone who may have been offended by this post.  I think this club is wonderful so far and I am very excited to be a member! 

Remember, in life you may not agree with all decisions your partner/boss/kids/prime minister/etc makes.  You must choose your battles.

Well we are really just going around in circles at this point. I agree that there are downsides to any (or most) decisions an executive can make, as there are upsides as well. We evaluated all the sides, and came to a decision. Some like it, some do not. Such is life. At this  point, we are trying to enjoy the rest of our summer, and personally I am not interested in defending the decision for the rest of the summer. I respect everyone's right to agree or disagree, but that doesn't mean we're going to change our minds without giving it a chance first. If next season's executive feels its in the best interest of the club to change it back, or if the majority of club membership lets us know they want it changed, then it can be looked . But so far, the majority of feedback I have received from club members has been supportive, and that's what I'm going with. Beyond that, I'm not dealing with this issue any more for the rest of the summer, next year's exec can take a look at it if they so desire. The debate has run its course, IMO.

I have a feeling that there is always going to be mixed feelings on this issue.
Why don't we set all OVAS members (whose voice should be heard for how the club is managed by the exec) straight by having a clear online poll.

If we make a post with voters' names remaining hidden (to maintain anonimity), I think it can set this matter to rest.

Of course only club members should be allowed to vote, but if the majority of OVAS's paying members wish to review the changes made to the web-site it should be up for review come fall.
If however, the majority of OVAS's paying members are in agreement with the changes - enough said.

I think at the end of the day, the only way to tell is with an open poll for the OVAS members.

This way there can be no more debating. If the majority of members are in agreement with the changes, then the changes should stand. If the majority of members are in disagreement with the changes, then come September this issue should be brought before the club. But at least the poll numbers will be out there and it will be clear to both sides.

*Just an idea and my humble 2 cents ::)

Trina Parsons
Former OVAS Executive Chairperson

A poll is a good idea, but i doubt it would be 'scientifically accurate', but I'd be curious none the less. But to make the point clear, from what I now understand, its not just 'do you want the forums restored' but also 'do you have a solution to the moderation problem that precipitated this decision'.

Im sure most want it restored but don;t understand all the moderation issues. I'd like to understand them as well because there may be other solutions to those moderation problems. 

I am sure there will be issues with a poll.
As you said, to be completely accurate will be a problem. It will be hard to convince people to vote and some may not.
But, some may and it may be enough to set this topic at bay.

Either it is something that the majority of the membership argree with or the majority of the membership are unhappy with the changes to the online forum. From there, if the majority of members would like to see re-instatement of one or both forums, I think it would be important to have an in-person meeting to discuss the issue further to arrive at the moderation/other issues which are important.

But without seeing some data (even if slightly flawed), we are just talking in circles, some saying they are unhappy and others saying they are satified with the decision the executive made and it is hard to gauge which is the majority - which is how the club should gauge its actions.

I agree also IMO classified should be open to all.

However, REPEAT breeders and fraggers could start paying some sort of vendor fee, which should be higher than a $20 membership fee. I mean regular people dont just breed species of cichlids or setup frag tanks for fun, maybe a new vendor forum for those who do it 'on the side', so its fair to us.

Quote from: markw on July 15, 2010, 02:03:43 PM
we've had to call the police on several occasions to deal with death threatsligated to cause problems on this site.

Death threats?
Several occasions?
Seriously?
Tell me you are exaggerating.

Well this type of drama and constant complaining just cost the club an acting VP and upcoming President.

Hope this was worth it.  And over a classified section...

A sad day for sure

Quote from: Brent Shaver on July 16, 2010, 07:27:31 AM
Well this type of drama and constant complaining just cost the club an acting VP and upcoming President.

Hope this was worth it.  And over a classified section...

A sad day for sure

Couldn't agree more!

There have been several threats of violence against either executive or members via the forum over the years, as well as verbal abuse, and the police have been notified of some of those occasions. I wish I was kidding.

Quote from: Brine on July 16, 2010, 07:21:30 AM
Death threats?
Several occasions?
Seriously?
Tell me you are exaggerating.

Do you think I have nothing better to do than make this crap up?

The trouble with all boards is that its VERY easy to misunderstand the seriousness of comments made - and hense its very easy to take offense to something which was nothing more than a normal comment or something that could be interpretted another way. Anyone who uses web boards heavily is certainly aware of times their own comments where taken the wrong way.

Abusive language, when it occurs should simply be deleted and ignored. Some people use certain words 3 times per sentence when speaking and it means nothing - for them using the same words online comes naturally - and means nothing. But before calling police, once should not jump to conclusions. Web posts, like email, can very easily be misunderstood without the context of a persons body language.

Be careful what you post, and try to be understanding if you have been misunderstood.

BTW - all social organmizations have tension, people leaving and coming back and feeling frustrated or angry. Its not just OVAS. But we should all remember that a club is a social organization, and for many members, OVAS is their PRIMARY social organization. A change that contrains peoples social contact can be felt as something quite disturbing.

But a major consideration for members is that running the club is a thankless job. Its alot of work, for no pay. I doubt many members understand how much work it is.

So, if you disagree with what the exec decides, thats ok. It appropriate at all times to express your opinions. But also listen to their issues, and try to propose alternatives. If an issue is contentious, the executive may have to make the reasoning behind their decisions clear. The exec is always interested in improving the club and I'm sure they will be open to suggestions if the membership listens to the issues that constrain them.

And if the exec doesnt listen, or makes arbitrary decisions without any reason, then people are free to vote for a new executive. The club belongs to all its members.

I think this thread is not rehashing old issues it is discussing important concerns by members and people over all. As dpatte said often or sometimes posters are misunderstood. He also mentioned body language which in fact is 80% of communication so understanding others onlie can easily be confussing or missing their true intent. With that said I hope this thread is left to continue so people member or not can voice their opinion.

Not to stir things up by no one is responsible for anyone leaving it is freedom of choice. As mentioned there are other concerns besides just clubs. I sat on the executive and had to step down for health reasons. It was a diffcult decision but a necessary one. And yes OVAS issues weighed on those health concerns aggravating them and that was three years ago. So some of this stuff is still present.

Again with that said the issues are whether the majority agree or disagree with the current changes. The cause and effect is suppose to be actions of on line personalities. IMHO debate as long as it is non-abusive shouldn't be considered undesirable. By non-threatening PMs any persons being aggressive or crossing the line or close to the line should be warned to keep things toned down. Anyone being abusive, name calling in any regard should be dealt with promptply with a ban period!

Maybe by activating some non-executive mods. even for certain boards like saltwater folks for that, plant hobbyists for that, etc. That would relieve stress on the exec. over all. It would also leave them less affected by the day to day stuff and could more easily apply their time on how the club is run. This would also leave them less jaded towards day to day issues with the website.

Today whether we like it or not the Web is dominate in our life's. With social networking growing in leaps and bonds any organization not involved in this growth will fall behind. Something to consider could be a secondary committee for just the club's on line presence? It would report directly to the exec. and of course be directly responsible to the club and it's membership.

They would oversee the entire running of the website. Something along this line could relieve much pressure and tension with the executive. In many organizations the exec. is not hands on but deal with running of that organation and relie on managers to handle thos tasks.

Any ways I sure hope this is left unlocked so debate and opinions can continue because it does not seem to be a dead issue with the membership. I see many members psoting pro/con still on these issues. It seems like quite an important thing to discuss. There is the potential of a division running through the middle of things but with open transparent discussion this can be averted. Who wants to see things end up as two sided? No one I believe.

After all this is a club for aquaria and to have fun not politics or power struggles. If open discussion concludes with all sides feeling heard and a possible poll it might just end the debate once and for all!

Quote from: dpatte on July 16, 2010, 08:42:49 AM
Abusive language, when it occurs should simply be deleted and ignored. 

Just a note on this one point:  Absolutely NOT.  We, you, anyone, should not have to put up with abusive language.

If you all would like to continue to discuss this matter (or others), it is certainly welcome as long as it remains positive and constructive, which it often does not.  BUT as Matt was trying to state above, you'll need to understand that nothing is going to get changed until September, as the summer is supposed to be time off for OVAS.  Okie dokie?  :)

Strictly in regards to the classifieds, correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that non-OVAS members are only prohibited from creating a post in the classifieds section and nothing else. They are fully able to view the classifieds and PM members who have posts in the classifieds, thereby initiating contact with members and participating in purchases and trades. Furthermore, non-members are also fully able to view and participate in the remaining sections of the forum, which most importantly includes help from members and contact with sponsors,  both of which are far better "first contacts" for any perspective member than the classifieds, IMO. The only thing non-members can't do is actually post a "for sale" ad. It just means that being able to post in the classifieds section is a perk for OVAS members, similar to having discounts at some of our sponsors. I'm sorry but I honestly don't see what the problem is with any of that is.

In addition, restricting the classifieds to OVAS members prevents fly-by-night posters who pop in with a 0 post count to sell something, never to be seen again, which is not the purpose of the forum to begin with. That's what Kijiji and Craig's List are for. Having had a few very negative experiences with non-OVAS members selling items in the classifieds, I, for one, am glad that this section has been restricted and hope that it continues to be only for OVAS members. No, it's not a guarantee of positive experiences but it is certainly a step in the right direction.

With regards to the actual moderation of the forum, I have to agree with Dan. There should be a separate non-exec body to deal with the forum, leaving the execs to do what they were actually elected to do. That's not to say that the execs should not have part in the forum or in the moderation of the forum but that it wouldn't be a primary role for them, which would alleviate some of the burden.

Hi Nyx.

The perks in letting non-members post are:
- that it gives members a chance to find things for sale on their own club website that would otherwise be listed elsewhere. Im sure many members here have benefitted from bargains posted by non-members. I for one have the classified on 'notify' mode and get each new post as it comes in.
- it gives non-members a chance to post their needs which could then be satisified by members.
- it gives the oportunity of those non-members to meet members face to face for the sale, insuring that members have a chance to promote the club to the non-members.
- but most of all, it exhibits that the club is inclusive, not exclusive.

For years Ive been encouraging fly-by-night posters to post on the site - and many have later gone on to become members, because they felt welcome.

I also agree with Dan that a webteam, not a single individual is required for the site moderation.

Finally, social clubs that required physical presence to survive mostly died out in the 80s and 90s. There has been a general trend in collapse for social organizations. The social networking we see now has replaced it, and always succeeded best when it allowed inclusiveness without payment. OVAS can grow as a club with meetings, but I honestly believe that this can only be done by making our web-presence as inclusive as possible.

I believe we should be actively encouraging the 100,000 households in Ottawa/Gatineau with aquariums to be using the OVAS site for aquarium-related sales and purcahses - and in doing so, building the clubs social network, and the other aspects of our club. If we look are very friendly, people will become members.

Giving away traffic to used ottawa, and kijiji and others is lost potential for the club.

Finally, I don't quite get why conversations on the web are blocked between members in the classified, and yet the other forums are open. If a troublemaker or non-member is going to come to the site, he'll cause trouble in any forum, not just the classifieds.

(I guess my point is made - and if others disagree - they are welcome to)

Quote from: Nyx on July 16, 2010, 10:10:06 AM
The only thing non-members can't do is actually post a "for sale" ad. It just means that being able to post in the classifieds section is a perk for OVAS members, similar to having discounts at some of our sponsors. I'm sorry but I honestly don't see what the problem is with any of that is.

They also can't put an ad saying "Looking for" either, which kinda sucks because there have been some times I have been looking to buy something and don't want to buy a brand new one. I personally don't get any benefit out of signing up for a membership so that is why I don't have one.  

As for moderation, I completely agree.  There needs to be more mods if this is the case that the execs are being over burden.  I have setup forums like this in the past (Mind you the ones I was part of didn't have such as strict rules as here) and the bigger they got the more and more volunteer mods had to be recruited.  I would volunteer myself to mod stuff since I work infront of a computer all day and e-mails get to me pretty much instantaneous.

Quote from: JetJumper on July 16, 2010, 10:37:45 AM
I personally don't get any benefit out of signing up for a membership so that is why I don't have one.  

How about you get to support your local hobby club made up of people with interests like yourself?

dpatte, you do raise some valid points. I especially agree that social clubs in the physical sense are in severe decline. I do most of my socialization online. It's simply more convenient and I prefer it. I just don't agree that restricting the classifieds will have that huge of an impact on club memberships, one way or the other. However, I would think that one's opinion on the matter is largely dictated by what roll they see the forum as performing and how important the personal classifieds are to them. So, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

WARNING>>>the following is my opinion mixed with quite a bit of frustration:

Everyone here is griping about how the lack of a stupid open classified section is not good for the club and that the exec's decision to make it members only was bad for the club.  Did anyone EVER think of how all that ridiculous forum abuse looked to the outside world?  The cliche "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free" definitely applies.  Clubs are supposed to be exclusive!  Name one club that is inclusive to everyone and anyone to wander in and out, using their resources without loyalty and without contributing!

Perhaps we're unaware of the extent of the drama and other junk that is posted on this site because exec volunteers spend a heck of a lot of their personal time to try to keep this site clean and friendly.  This takes away from the precious time they have to spend with their families and enjoying the hobby, which brought them to OVAS in the first place.  If most of that time is being taken up by editing, deleting, banning, warning, explaining, re-explaining, oh...some more re-explaining, then on top of that they get crapped on for using their volunteer time trying to make things better...wow...who would want to be on the exec? How many execs are we going to loose this year because of all this?  We're already down one...a really good one too.    I'm sure eventually more and more amazing people will get disgusted and quit the exec, stop logging on and eventually stop buying memberships and showing up at meetings.  I think there's already a pretty long list of people who have done that.  

Sure they can ask for moderation volunteers but as soon as the moderators are announced, there's going to be more complaining about who was chosen and the reasons for not choosing others...blah blah blah.  OVASC...Ottawa Valley Aquarium Society of Complaining :(

Look at the big picture. If things go back to the way they were, OVAS, IMO will go back to being a local ebay.  The "local ebay" section will be filled with people who have no loyalty or connection to the club as well as people and/or sneaky businesses who are profiting via our resource without helping to pay for it.  What's next?  A movement by non-members to turn the monthly meetings into monthly garage sale and swap meets?  Ugh...

If the classified section is the end-all-be-all and a MAJOR reason this website gets any traffic, then why waste so much time and effort in maintaining the rest of the website?  I bet there would be less complaining if the exec had voted to delete all the forums except the classified.

Whatever happened to PMing the exec or emailing them with complaints?  Wouldn't that be a more respectful route for the exec and other people who participate on these forums?  Debate or no debate, I'm getting tired of reading about how people want the classifieds re-opened.

QuoteClubs are supposed to be exclusive!  Name one club that is inclusive to everyone and anyone to wander in and out, using their resources without loyalty and without contributing!

If that is how the club feel, restrict access to the entire site to paying members only - problem solved.

If not, you have to expect this type of response - there are 2200 members on ovas.ca and only about 10% are paying members. If you implement new rules that negatively effect over 90% of the members, and many of the paying members disagree with as well, you have to expect this sort of reaction.

You either have to accept it or squash it, but I suspect this topic will keep coming up for quite a while...

Quote from: mseguin on July 16, 2010, 10:44:17 AM
How about you get to support your local hobby club made up of people with interests like yourself?

I do this by giving people a helping hand if they require it. 

Wow - and since everyone's attention is here anyhow...

If the direction of OVAS does change towards an open social networking style environment, I personally would love to contribute.  I've made such statements in the past when these types of issues were debated, the club chose to go a different direction though my offer still stands. 

@fishnut; the world is embracing social networking, open source, and other e-communities and most of them are not money generating in any fashion, just sharing.  Text Messaging, MSN, Linked-IN, MySpace, Facebook, Twitter, etc, etc define the standard of how society communicates.


More on topic with this thread, I missed the part where the issues were listed and help was asked for.  All I saw, was here are some new rules, and the debauchery that ensued.

If this was done, I think a healthy dose of reality should be applied.  Your input and help was asked for, no one stepped up, so rules were created to fill the gap.

Assuming this was not done, which btw, is my assumption, then I still do not think that I have a place here.

that's my 1 cent, I'll go away again now.  Sorry for the interruption.

I don't get it.... :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Do people think that if a club for their hobby doesn't ALWAYS have a topic or meetings revolving around that ONE specific thing, does that mean you can't support the club at all? Shouldn't that mean you should become MORE involved to change things????? I do not have salt water or african set ups or much of any set up other than catfish right now, yet I still attend meetings, and I'm on the exec...but I haven't been to one meeting yet that was pure catfish speak or pure guppy speak....unless I'm ill (or the baby is ill) I am at the salt water, african, killie, coldwater, local fish talks....it's called getting out of the house, meeting with other people who share my interest in preserving our little eco systems and getting to meet new people and convincing them that catfish are the way to go and everyone should buy brown fish....

Doesn't it boil down to we have water in glass boxes....Just because I'm a catfish person doesn't mean I stop at just that...

When I joined OVAS I had a betta bowl...but that didn't stop me from getting back into the hobby, the meetings made my interests grow and I knew I had experiences to offer

So it's sad that some feel the club has nothing to offer them and that's why they don't have a membership, they don't see the benefits, but I wonder if people stopped to think of what THEY have to offer and the benefits that others have to gain from them....

my two cents plus hst. ;)

Yes this topic will keep coming up for awhile, but I hope we get to our new site soon...that way people have other things on their mind :P

Oh yes and don't forget...NOT EVERYONE IS ONLINE! There are members at the meetings who do not frequent this site...so what happens to them??

Are yuo serious? Facebook, msn not about generating money? There are arguments being made that Facebook could become one of the biggest corporations in the world.
As for social networking, there are studies showing that relationships built on social networks such as Facebook and the like do not have any lasting power. So if friendships formed on a social network don't translate well, how about clubs where people come and go freely. How long do you expect that to last? I bet a lot of people thought their groups on Myspace would last forever, until the bottom fell out on that one. The very nature of the internet is transient and flowing, which makes it hard to run a club on it.

who said anything about facebook  ???

this website has become a joke, everybody grow up...... Done

Let's keep this thread low key and on track. The O/P posted regarding disappointment especially since he was an original creator on the web team that help to activate this website. He is also a past president and executive at other levels so he has done his part and unserstands the tasks at hand. This is not the first time there has been changes to the site that were not agreed with by all. He is voicing his opinion and making a statement on the original propose of the site which I read as a free sort of outreach by the club to others inviting them to join through attraction not promotion.

I am impressed this has remained low key and no serious rock throwing has started I for one would encourage it to stay on that path. I hope it doesn't get locked that mods watch for anyone trying to insight it getting derailed just to see it locked.

Of course those serious about the hobby do not want to a swap shop or garage sale on line only or at meetings. The points made are valid of why the classifieds were first created. Of course everyone is not going to agree this is human nature. We can disagree but hopefully not to just disagree and if we do it is OK to disagree but not to be rude to one another.

I know and I am sure everyone knows that the exec. works hard. It is also likely understood by everyone that it wouldn't continue without volunteers but there are many who just aren't built that way (to volunteer) and that is OK. I am sorry to see exec. leave feeling they are unappreciated and stressed out but I do not think there are people who seriously try to invoke those feelings on them. If they do step down or a side it is not the fault of others but their choice to do so. At least that is my opinion. No one can make me do anything I do not wish to do. When I stepped down it was related to health and some OVAS stress but it was all my freedom of choice to quit.

Again I am just voicing my opinions as others and really would like to see open discussion continue without hostilities.

I agree with Dan. I am not good with words I tend to come across the wrong way online and in person.  :-\

Quote from: mseguin on July 16, 2010, 12:10:52 PM
Are yuo serious? Facebook, msn not about generating money? There are arguments being made that Facebook could become one of the biggest corporations in the world.

Yes, 100% serious.  the technology provider generates money, the advertisers generate "marketing" which leads to money, but the clubs, groups, etc are not generating money...  Unless I'm doing something wrong, in 2 years I've not seen a dime from my facebook account, nor have I given one to any of the dozen or so groups I'm a member in... They are getting people together who have similar interests and allowing for very free-form information exchange with self-moderation as the norm.

Quote
As for social networking, there are studies showing that relationships built on social networks such as Facebook and the like do not have any lasting power. So if friendships formed on a social network don't translate well, how about clubs where people come and go freely. How long do you expect that to last? I bet a lot of people thought their groups on Myspace would last forever, until the bottom fell out on that one. The very nature of the internet is transient and flowing, which makes it hard to run a club on it.

Social networking is here for a while at least and anyone who is not on-board at time should really take a good look at the world around them.  It has changed the way people interact and therefore has challanged some of the classic definitions of friendship and relationships.  Facebook being one of the biggest corporations in the world should be a pretty clear argument that, in general, the world is embracing this style of communication and interaction.  Just as in the late 90's every company was getting a web-site built, now companies are getting onto facebook/twitter/myspace, etc which is a demonstration of the masses interacting with these systems/technologies.  (good luck buying a phone with out an "app" for accessing this stuff)

There is an entire emerging practice, happening right now, where companies are shifting from email based communications to private/public social networking systems.  Companies are realizing that by embracing these concepts/technologies, they stand to gain far more than by banning access to them and trying to eliminate them. (all clubs/groups/etc could learn from this example)

You do raise an interesting point about social networking relationships not having lasting power.  It's very likely quite true though I am not aware of any studies of this nature.  However this really demonstrates one of the greatest strengths of these technologies, which is that the content, the contributions and the existence of the "social network" itself is stronger than any one relationship.  It grows and shrinks and becomes something much bigger than the collection of "virtual-friends".

Quote from: 93GTCANADA on July 16, 2010, 12:05:45 PM
Fishnut if you can't handle the heat then maybe you shouldn't be in the kitchen. I don't mean to disrespect but I have noticed on multiple occassion you flying off the handle.

Ok, slightly off topic but perhaps this is a good quote to use as an example of why people either don't volunteer for the exec and why some leave.  If you get enough of this type of comment because you post on a subject you're passionate about and thoroughly frustrated with it would certainly CAUSE a person to exercise that freedom to choose not to be part of an organization who's users talk to others in that way.  I'm stubborn but I'm getting sick of not being able to post my opinions on this site without being specifically snarked at.

Quote from: Hookup on July 16, 2010, 12:29:50 PM
Yes, 100% serious.  the technology provider generates money, the advertisers generate "marketing" which leads to money, but the clubs, groups, etc are not generating money...  Unless I'm doing something wrong, in 2 years I've not seen a dime from my facebook account, nor have I given one to any of the dozen or so groups I'm a member in... They are getting people together who have similar interests and allowing for very free-form information exchange with self-moderation as the norm.

I have a Facebook page that gets people together who are interested in what I do for a living.  I, therefore make money from Facebook.

no one said you can't post your opinion. everyone can. you can be passionate about something. it's the way you present your opinions. I will not stop expressing my opinions because I am worried someone will take it personally. when someone writes somethign about the exec's you see it as a personal attack. people are just expressing how they feel. it is what it is. life is to short to worry about all these little things. i expressed my opinion and that's that.

I like the idea that this whole topic is being kept on one thread, to let the other threads function normally.

I'm reminded of the word 'crisis'.

In Chinese crisis is written as a combination of two ideograms..

The first is 'danger', which is obvious. There is no doubt that with strong opinions, there is a danger here for the whole club.

But the second part of the word crisis, is 'opportunity'.

I believe that if this debate is healthy, and it is used as an opportunity, it can help OVAS grow to become an even better club for all its members.

I think thats possible, if we all remember that we all take something different from the club and the website, and contribute something different as well.

Healthy discussion can take us to the next level - a wider, more open and inviting aquarium club that is resource for anyone on the web, and an active membership that is growing when all other clubs are declining.

Quote from: Fishnut on July 16, 2010, 12:39:54 PM
I have a Facebook page that gets people together who are interested in what I do for a living.  I, therefore make money from Facebook.

I thought I was clear...

Quote from: Hookup on July 16, 2010, 12:29:50 PM
Yes, 100% serious.  the technology provider generates money, the advertisers generate "marketing" which leads to money, but the clubs, groups, etc are not generating money... 

Or were you supporting my point of view... if so, thanks... We agree... Marketing on these sites does lead to money!

I have to say that I was very disappointed to see that you have chosen the direction that you have.  To lock down the classifieds so that non-paying members cannot post not only hurts then but it also punishes the paying members of the site.  Why would you want to limit the availability of fish, corals, equipment, and tanks from only 10% of your user base.  Whether you like it or not, the classified are probably the largest draw to OVAS.  The inability to post Livestock or dry equipment takes away from the "community" feel.  It all sounds like a bit of a "money grab" to me, but in the long run I feel it will really hurt the society in the end.  Initially you may have some people switch from non-paying to paying, but over time you will probably find that growth has been severely stunted for new members.  Making the site a "closed" community will help eliminate some issues, but could eventually lead to the ultimate decline and possible end of the OVAS community.  Who's to stop someone from opening up their own "free" Ottawa aquarium community for all of those that feel betrayed or shut out of OVAS based on the decisions that have been made.

I for one am one of those "non-paying" members and enjoy reading the forums as well as checking the classifieds for anyone that selling something of interest.  Hearing that I am only limited to approx. 10% of the active community destroys the whole purpose.  Why would I, as a non-paying or even paying member, only want to see what 10% of the people are selling.  Your getting 1 out of 10 posts for items that may be readily available.  I feel for the person (and livestock) that comes on here that has fish, corals, or any other livestock that he can no longer care for and wants to offer them to knowledgeable hobbyist but cannot and has to resort to UsedOttawa or kijiji and sell to someone that may have absolutely no idea what they are buying.  I don't post much, I don't attend meetings, and I don't feel I should pay for information that is readily available everywhere else on the internet.  I do however enjoy the feeling of having a place to go and read about the hobby I love and knowing that there are lots of other people in the Ottawa region that enjoy it just as much that I can contact.

Anyways, I've typed enough.  I hope you will reverse or decision on this as I cannot see any long term good this will provide to the community.  To those paying members, I feel bad that because of these decisions you will suffer as well.

Also, should decisions of this nature not be voted upon by your "paying" club members?  Most clubs I've heard of have the executives make proposals that go to a vote of their members.  Maybe I'm wrong?

My 2 cents...take it as you like...

Quote from: KrazieCanuck on July 16, 2010, 02:01:02 PM
It all sounds like a bit of a "money grab" to me

This statement is getting so old, it sounds like a non paying member doesnt want to cough up $20 but expects to have full access to a paid membership club???

I give Tim Hortons more then $20 a week and all I get in return for my investment is heartburn.  At least here I get to learn and share experiences about this hobby.

As for this site being based around the classifieds?? ARE YOU SERIOUS???  There is records dating back to 1958, I can see how the classifieds made this club what it is.

Some non-card-holding users of the site contribute far more than $20 of value in their advice and and other contributions to the club.

I'm not actually suggesting it, but I had an odd idea, perhaps the club should be split in two - one paying club with meetings, etc., and one free club with a website only. If that seems too drastic, then perhaps it will help people understand how these two sides must coexist to support each other, as they had been.

How about a "For Free" and "Wanted" section where everyone can create threads (and everyone can PM the OP if interested), and the "For Sale" section for paying members only?  It's not perfect, but does address the "fish has outgrown its tank" or "I'd rather give it away than flush it".  Plus, if I post a "I need a 50-75g tank", I give the opportunity to non-paying-members to PM me with what they have to offer?

Go even a further step and OVAS benefits. So many say it is not the $20 but the principal of being forced or the feeling they are being forced to pay that fee so why not a type of consignment approach. Someone wants to sell something they post it for sale but OVAS collects the purchase price through email transfer or PayPal. OVAS collects say 2% of the sale or whatever? Then OVAS submits a cheque to the seller. Yes there are logistics but think of the amount collected? Think of the speakers or presentations that could be held with more serious funds. Maybe road trips or whatever... there are possibilities here!

Saltwater folks say there is little here for them. Saltwater presentations are often more costly i.e. Anthony Calfo. Something along this line would create more chance to bring in more saltwater speakers or even big name plant folks like Tom Barr perhaps? OR other freshwater big names too.

OR maybe a gargage sale 3 times a year or more where OVAS collects a commission of all items members pay less than non-members.

One issue with brainstorming and its been done before (I even started a thread) they do not get processed. The ideas are bounced around but not recorded to be looked at. The other issue the time frame. Such as- Sept new exec. comes in they need to get up to speed so no changes exec meeting over, next meeting OK we are in place get regular business done new business carried forward exec meeting over, Nov. plans for Christmas party no changes exec meeting over, Dec no meeting, Jan. back to regular business and start planning Giant Auction exec meeting over, Feb now lets start looking at ideas but no decision finalized meeting over, March Giant Auction wrap up, this only leaves 2 months before exec. elections and summer break...

My point is new ideas fall between the cracks easily and quickly. Maybe look at the exec. and potential revamping? Have a sub committee/s that look at these ideas, brainstorm and do the foot work for the general exec. Then they bring the meat and potatoes idea to the general exec. for consideration and voting on. This leaves the exec. free to do the regular business. Many organizations use sub committees. They do not always keep them they are often disbanned after the process is complete. The up side is more gets done or reviewed per season and the exec. doesn't work harder = less stress.

Each season (year) it is always the same, "we will look at that" then the season is over and it is next season etc. It is not the exec's fault there is no time and as they say they are busy and have a life plus the hobby they want to enjoy. So why not deligate? Why not divide and conquer. It is in the constitution so it is allowed to create sub-chairs and committees.

Why dont you all meeet and discuss this !!

To be honest with you all, My visit to ovas went down from 10 times a day to like 2 visits a week.... and thats for two reasons:

1.  it became so damn boring an so fish oriented. Its not like we get a 100 new topic each day to discuss. Plus there is no more interactions between members, it's either fish related or no conversations.

2.  Because of your arguments. Argument after another but nothing is done !! we speak but exec dont listen, exec speak and we dont listen.

Am totally against the new changes, but i understand why they happened. So instead of writing pages of reasoning (its not like someone will actaully read it) you all should meeet somewhere and discuss this !! Permenantly ban users that cause trouble, but keep others happy.

If you ask me am i gonna be a member next year, i would say no.
Why? give a reason why i should be a memeber?! what does ovas offer me that i can't find outside of the OVAS world !!

Quote from: cichlidicted on July 16, 2010, 06:58:21 PM


If you ask me am i gonna be a member next year, i would say no.
Why? give a reason why i should be a memeber?! what does ovas offer me that i can't find outside of the OVAS world !!

You ever hear of JFK? Ever heard his inaugural speech? Didn't think so!

this is just crazy
who chooses the exacs for this website?
why do they have the right to do what ever they want?
after all it should be a free website and you should be able to choose if you want the member ship or not.
I was going to become a member but the fact that they try to force it to me I will not do it any more.
I really think ovas should go back to the original setting it was and allow every one to use the classified section for free.
its funny how they looked around for some thing that every one is using and change the setting on that section and only allow the members to use it.

Paying members vote in the Exec, when we are lucky enough for them to offer there service.

As in any other club that has membership, only the paid membership have the right to vote in anything concerning club business.

And for the record if it goes back to the way it was, no non member would be able to post anything, I will second that.

So many complain so few are willing to help....

I think the the exec that changed the classified setting should just be changed and one of the members who thinks that the classified add should be free should then replace him or her.
stop ripping every one off specially by pushing the members to pay and other wise they cant sell any thing here.
I think only people that should pay for that section are the once who use it all the time and a lot like they are running a business off of it not those who choose to sell some thing once a while.

Quote from: Brent Shaver on July 16, 2010, 07:40:41 PM
when we are lucky enough for them to offer there service.

I totally agree ... we all owe them gratitude for managing the site ... but the only point i'd like to bring up is that exec should fit in to what ovas is, and not the opposite. So if any exec is busy or think wont have enough time to run the show then he/she should never run for election.

aman!

The Exec is voted in by the OVAS members.  This is done during the May General Meeting.  The OVAS Exec meets once a month to discuss the operations of the club.  The website is ONLY the online presence of the club.  Our focus is on the meetings where we have a varied selection of programs; speakers, movies, social evenings, mini-auctions.

The decision to change the web site was presented at one the OVAS Exec meetings, discussed and voted on by all the Execs who were present.  The motion passed.  It was not unanimous and there was a great deal of heated debate on the issue.

Please read the following message from the current club president that explains the reasons for this change.

http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=44565.0

Quote from: garnpet on July 16, 2010, 08:00:26 PM
The website is ONLY the online presence of the club.  

I've heard and seen this point made many times during this debate. I believe that is the root of the problem. To some people the website is ONLY the online presence of the club. To a majority of people the website IS the club. Way more people are "on-line members" than "meeting going members."
If the website is such trouble for OVAS perhaps OVAS should just shut it down. There are other local aquatic websites.

BTW Dpatte....your signature is against the new rules too!

"A signature shall not contain:

   1. more then 4 lines text"

I will go back to my silence now ...

I dont think exceutives do whatever they want I mean they are letting us (non members included) speak our mind in an open forum.

I do like an open classified but cant say not having that made the forum slower as it gets slow around this time every year. And I also feel people should buy the membership to show their support, it does help everyone in the long run with speakers/seminars/DIY sessions what not, if you look in reefcentral people just pay and there is no membership or discounts, all they get is a 'I support RC' logo.

I miss the off-topic section too btw.

maybe classified should be pay per use, $1 a post, $0.25 for a bump a day lol. 

Well I'm going on holiday...and leave ya'll to your bellyaching.

No we exec do not do whatever we want....if we did...well wouldn't you be in for a surprise  8)

I will be posting a little something from the past (circa 1965?) regarding club issues and show you it isn't a new thing and they survived. if OVAS has survived this long, well a little hiccup and loss of a few members won't harm anything.

Quote from: Brine on July 16, 2010, 08:32:40 PM
There are other local aquatic websites.

If the club is splitting into two (another online site has come in to compete with the OVAS website - which I have now confirmed), this should be a serious concern for all card members of the club and all OVAS web members.

I do believe its urgent for the sake of the whole club to recognize the value both parts of OVAS make to the other, or risk losing the web portion all together. If ovas loses its web following, its will undoubtedly decline like all other social clubs.

I intend to work here to encourage, without confrontation, the reinstatement of the OVAS website to its original social state. I think OVAS is important and needs the website to remain more open to be important.

But if i don't succeed, i fear that the only thing likely to survive will be a website, and it wont be an OVAS website.

To address once and for all the issue of a cash grab:
A couple seasons back we decided (or maybe it was the beginning of this season?) to stop selling memberships at LFS. There were a few reasons  and headaches that led to it, but one of the big ones was that most of the memberships we were selling at LFS were mostly being bought for the discount and never seen from again. We felt this was not an image the club wanted to project, or how we wanted to treat our sponsors. We know for a fact this has resulted in less memberships being sold, and yet I don't think any executive regrets that decision. If we wanted a cash grab, the member who buys a membership and is never seen again is perfect. We get $20, can never have to pay for food, a bigger room, etc. But that's not what we want. You can disagree with the classifieds decision if you want, but before posting that it's a cash grab, give your head a shake and read everything that has been posted up till now in a variety of threads. Or if you think we're all just liars at this point, then show up at the elections meeting and vote us all out.

And yes the members do absolutely get a critical say in how this club is run. But so far, mostly what I'm seeing with just a few exceptions, is a lot of non-members complaining about not having something for free. And saying "I was going to be be a member but excuse A\B\C" doesn't count. The executive always listens to our members and even in this case we are. But I've said before, the executive is done changing things for the summer, when they reconvene in Septemeber who knows what will happen.

I hesitate to bother posting because, its human nature that once a defensive position has been taken, the merits of the other side's arguments are not viewed with clarity.
Its not about belly-aching its about whether the changes to the website are good or bad for the club. Personally, I agree with David that the changes are a bad idea. Having been on the OVAS exec before/during/and long after his time and seen how the success's of the website catapulted the club to what it is today I pretty much have to agree. For the record its the loss of the lounge that bothers me the most. The social side of the club should not be hindered, it should be encouraged. I encourage the 2010/2011 exec to re-visit the decision this fall.

Quote from: Sue on July 17, 2010, 08:43:30 AM
I hesitate to bother posting because, its human nature that once a defensive position has been taken, the merits of the other side's arguments are not viewed with clarity.
Its not about belly-aching its about whether the changes to the website are good or bad for the club. Personally, I agree with David that the changes are a bad idea. Having been on the OVAS exec before/during/and long after his time and seen how the success's of the website catapulted the club to what it is today I pretty much have to agree. For the record its the loss of the lounge that bothers me the most. The social side of the club should not be hindered, it should be encouraged. I encourage the 2010/2011 exec to re-visit the decision this fall.

The social part of the club is not being hindered whatsoever. We have gone to great strides to encourage people to get out and meet others. Our BBQ, Christmas party, workshops, breakfast meetings, special events are all done to encourage social gatherings. Even our meetings are structured to encourage meeting members and we as the Exec. go out of our way to reach out to new members to welcome them to our meetings and introduce them to other hobbyists especially those that share a similar part of the hobby. All I'm hearing is that most people are afraid to leave their keyboards alone long enough to go out and actually meet people face to face. Have people lost all social skills or is what you are saying it has been replaced by a computer. If so, I apparently am wasting my efforts.

Quote from: markw on July 17, 2010, 08:59:02 AM
All I'm hearing is that most people are afraid to leave their keyboards alone long enough to go out and actually meet people face to face. Have people lost all social skills or is what you are saying it has been replaced by a computer. If so, I apparently am wasting my efforts.

Well, to be honest, the more social interaction there is online, the more likely you will get members that buy a memerbership and turn out to meet their online contacts in person.

It may not be what you want, but i believe it is a fact of life that many people prefer to interact online first.

All organizations based on primarily physical interaction have been in decline for the last 40 years - churches, humanitarian organizations (lions, rotary), common interest groups (legion, hobby clubs). Many people also have too many timing considerations to make it to a meeting at a particular time. There are also those people that don;t live nearby, or don;t have the time or money for transportation.

People want to interact on their own schedule, learn on their own schedule, and to stay close to home because of other responsibilities (family - for one). Online frienships, if strong enough, may pull out at most 10% of online people if you are lucky. Want more at your meetings? Then build a vibrant interactive community on your website.

The website has the potential of being HUGE.

There are nearly 100,000 homes in Ottawa Gatineau with aquariums or ponds or goldfish bowls. And a positive inclusive website can reach beyond Ottawa. There are likely 3,000,000 homes in Canada alone where there might be interest in our shared knowledge. A website with 20,000 members can make alot of money in advertising, and draw alot of paid members, for the club meetings.

 

It seems to me that the underlying issues are as follows:
- there where underlying moderation issues on the site which helped to increase normal (though unfortunate) disagreements between online users in the chat areas.
- there are some that don't see how private vendors in the classfieds are a benefit to all web users.
- as the executive are all meeting-going members, many don't recognize the value of the website to the thousands of website users, and how the website helps build the whole club and paid membership. Their opinions are therefore somewhat biased towards the meetings, and against the website. Meeting goers therefore are also a bad choice as website moderators. Several moderators should represent the online user that is NOT YET a meetings person.

How many of the executive became members without joining the website first? Did using the site, and chatting with the websuers online not encourage you actually buy a membership, then become an exec?

Solve the underlying problems without limiting the site usage, and you will enhance the website - AND the club membership as a whole.

The moderation problem is not solved as the solutions attempted are upsetting a majority of 2000 OVAS webusers. not good PR for the club!

I, for one, don't like the idea of 1000+ active webusers now taking their frustration with ovas to their other chatrooms and websites. The PR consequences are a disaster for OVAS. Large companies have collapsed in weeks when the web base is blocked - because of the bad PR.

Its not an easy problem, and it needs a team to find a better solution, and it needs people online to know that a better solution is being ACTIVELY studied.

As an aside: From the day the site was setup, I have had mixed feelings about the classifieds. The club takes no commission from sales or advertising in the personal clasifieds, and perhaps impinges slightly on the sales of our commercial vendors (of they sell used items or livestock), and perhaps cuts profits from the monthly auctions and the big auction. At least so I thought.

But online vendors will go elsewhere online, if they cant list on ovas - you cant force anyone to drag there items into a meeting if they can list it online for free.

So, shouldnt ovas members get first dibs on items for sale, or wanted? Don;t we want them coming back regularly and interacting with our club membership FIRST, before listing their items on 1 of 100 other sites?

As for lost profits from classified, i believe they are totally minimal. If somone lists for sale on classified, a person has to go out of his way to see an item. The buyer has made an extra investment in time that isnt necessary at an auction.

I believe that a vibrant website attracts MORE people to auctions, especially if they have met the vendors elsewhere, than if they never met through the OVAS classified. The classifieds build relationships that enhance, not detract, from the auctions. classified build trust in good sellers, and build a reputation for the OVAS auctions.




 

i agree with dpatte. I don't have time to go to meetings. I also don't always have the answers to fish questions. But in lounge maybe I could of helped in other ways.

The problem with the exec's is they don't see this website being valuable like most of us do. I have met a ton of people online who have become real good friends afterwards. I think you guys are not seeing the big picture here.

I'm no longer into the plant side of things or breeding fish. When I did it was for enjoying the hobby more not to make money. I sold the results of those efforts in the classifieds here 'ONLY'. I met more different people than when I attended meetings.

At meetings there is a core membership that attends those are the folks I mostly talked with and already knew. But through the classifieds I met a larger amount of people that I'd only ever scene on line - put the face to the name. At that time I would encourage those buyers to come out to a meeting see what it was all about. Tell them they could bring their plant clippings to the mini auction and have a laugh. Also told them those fry that they'd end up giving to the LFS they could also try to sell at that the mini auctions. Not a fortune but at those mini auctions the club gets a commission. I also noticed when I was Membership Chair that those same folks I'd met in my home who came out to a meeting often bought a membership from me. It was the website classifieds that had our pathes cross.

As for the Lounge there were many a thread that made people laugh and enjoy. The viewed count on some of those threads were in the 1000s even 10,000s! But now I see the ShoutBox being used for some off topic sales and other stuff instead of the Lounge!

No matter how you dice it and what side of the fence you are on when you take something away from something the whole is smaller - it less than what it was that's just simple basic mathematics.

Whether anyone likes it or not social on line networking is real and dominates our society today. There are apps/mods for this software that can be installed to update Twitter/Facebook/MySpace when a post is made to a certain board. They can even forward notifications to your text enabled phone if you like. There are other aquarium forums using these features right now!

I do not like change basically I'm a creature of habit. When CDs first came out they were expensive and I believed they lied about their durability too. I fought the switch over and believed it was a fad product that would fall to the way side to a cheaper medium that would be more durable - it was years before I owned a CD player even a DVD player. OK Dan you'll alright - NOT! LOL

The point is technology especially in IT grows at a 10:1 ratio over most any other R&D today. To fight against joining that wave is fool hearty. The numbers of companies and other organizations that have died because they did not get on the web is staggering. If you can't be found quickly today the person searching moves on with a click of the mouse. Who doesn't have an email address now? In 1995 less than 20% of people had one. Look at difference today - God I have at least 4.

It is with great hesitation that I reply to this thread but I feel that having been a member for the past 6 years I will voice my thoughts. I have posted less and less over the past years to the point of not posting at all for my own personal reasons on this site and have wandered away to another site where the member postings were of a "friendlier" and more informative manner. I used this web based club as "my social interaction" for the following reasons I live over an hour away from Ottawa and the distance combined with my "health" issues for those that know me prevent me from being the social butterfly that I would like to be at meetings and gatherings. I must admit that over the last several years I did only come in to view the classifieds and got out again. I quite agree the classifieds is not a one time dumping ground for livestock and equipment for consumers but it shouldn't be a morgue either. Quite frankly if these one timers are monitored closely what harm is it creating, and perhaps nominal fee of a buck or two per classified ad could be administered for those that are hesitant to become members. I remember a few years back I started a thread something to the effect of where have the oldtimers gone or something like that I really missed the experienced advice that was given from these folks that have disappeared or no longer post and I have found myself to now have become one of themas well for various reasons that I wont go into detail about.  

Enough said I have spoke my piece...



David Patte as one of the "old timers" and past execs keep the drive alive!!! I'm happy to see you voicing your opinions on something you worked hard at years ago...

Sincerely Klaus Jenett  

A few comment on the changes, misconceptions, opinions in this recent debate:

What is the reason of the changes.
Although it has been said earlier (here (http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=44565.0) and here (http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=45130.0)) I will explain once more what led to the changes in the classifieds: We were concerned about the image of the club. Over the past years, in which the classifieds accelerated this forum to new levels, OVAS became know not as aquatic club, but as an specialized market place for anything aquatic with a forum attached to it. Most people that signed up as new users on this forum only did this to offer sell there stuff; there was mostly no identification or knowledge about the presence of this club. Some people stayed to become active on the forum, but totally ignored that this forum is part of a club, only very few realized that and joined. However, OVAS has created this website spread it's existence, but there was no emphasis on this since anyone could use ovas.ca to all extend, be it a member of the club or someone who doesn't even know about it. This has eventually turned away many club members from OVAS, because the manners of those having no relation to the club at all were no the greatest at all time. By making the classifieds members only we knowledge those who make OVAS what it is.

It's just a money grab after all.
So your reason not to join OVAS is that they want $20 from you to be able to place an add? If you still think that start reading from the beginning again. And how is that logical anyway? If you wanted to join OVAS before, well, then it gives you the possibility to use our online classified. Nobody is forcing you into an OVAS membership just to place an ad. There are plenty of sites out there that allow you to do that for free, although even those have a charge if you want to make your ad look fancy. We can't stop you from getting a membership just to place an ad on OVAS as we don't screen and allow anyone (unless you have violated some major rules) to become part of OVAS, but this is certainly not encouraged by us.

But don't you the the social aspect of the classifieds?
It can't be neglected that the classifieds are have a social aspect when the transaction takes place. I meet many great people this way. But isn't it a bit strange that you have to be payed to become social? Where is your own initiative? Your own effort. You speak about social, but you are not willing to recognize the social organization that makes this possible in the first place. Come out if you want to socialize, we at OVAS offer plenty of venues to meet and chat with fellows. We don't bite. I don't mean to insult anyone, but this argument is cheap.

Speaking of cheap.
We live in the 21st century, it's really a great time, the communication age, and it has been affected greatly be the Internet. Vast knowledge is available everywhere, and it doesn't cost a penny. Doesn't OVAS realize that, why do they still want to pay us a membership fee? Is the whole concept of the club not outdated these days?
As with many things in life, you get what you pay for. And the Internet is no exception. There are millions of experts out there that will tell you in many ways what's right, but you will have a hard time finding the real, well known expert, telling you his opinion. Many things are free on the web, and of course there some great resources out there. But the web has also changed our perception: when so many things are free, why shall I suddenly pay for it. The attitude goes around, that only free is good, especially in the web.
There are those huge online communities, international, thousands of members, free of course, doesn't OVAS see the trend? Well, we do. But we don't want to compete with them; we do not want turn OVAS into an online community. OVAS is local. We believe in social communication as it was done in the old days: in person. We like to spend time together to share our new experiences and talk fish. We like to attend events and listen to someone who share his experiences with out. It's the human factor that is important to us, and which gets lost way to often in on the Internet.
Unfortunately, any event requires a venue, speakers transportation, etc, and as life is not virtual, everything costs money. And believe it or not, website hosting isn't for free either. These are just few examples for what your membership contribution is used for. And how do you feel about this (http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=43988.0).

Moderation has overwhelmed them.
Yes, there have been serious threats in the past, we had to get the police involved, these individuals had no stay here. This is out of questions. The problem with moderation in the past was a missing clear line for everyone to follow. That is the reason why we finally put rules in place that are used to govern the OVAS's forum. Moderation since has been minimal, and to be honest was only necessary because of violations of the recent changes, mainly those to the classifieds board. With this being an website being an extension of the club it is also very difficult to ignore disrespect shown towards the club, it's committee, and it's decisions, especially if it is shown by individuals that show no interest for the club at all. The continuous defending of decisions that were made with the best interests of the club in mind towards an audience, that doesn't care for the reasons that led to them, can be very exhausting at times.

The web traffic.
If you made is this far, you will realize that OVAS doesn't really care if we get fifty or thousand hits per day. We are interested in reaching out to the local aquatic community, and provide them an online home for the time between our events as we do recognize the change in time, as well as the fact that someone can't show up to any or all meetings due to personal commitments. This is the place to stay in touch and learn about your aquatic neighbour. That said, the forum has been as active as ever, which is surprising in these summer months. And you shouldn't confuse the number of registered accounts (2000) with those, that are actually active from time to time (100). This is a small community.
What makes me said though is that threads like these still draw way more attention to them than actual discussions about the hobby. This has been a problem with this site ever since I know about it and caused way more damage to the club than anything else. People that have been in the club for quite some time get tired of this and turn their back to OVAS. New once are scared away without getting a chance to learn what OVAS is about. Well done.



Do you think this is really worth it?
Do you want to talk fish?
Do you know what OVAS (http://ovas.ca/index.php) is?


These are the reasons why I supported this change, which now looks like a lollipop we took away from a little kid.

Robert Hemp
OVAS Secretary & Webmaster

Quote from: fischkopp on July 17, 2010, 02:27:54 PM...which now looks like a lollipop we took away from a little kid.

It's this kind of arrogance from the Execs that I caused me to change my mind about joining the club.

If you're going to post a reply to formally address an issue on behalf of the club, lose the condescending tone. Believe it or not, everyone here is an adult even if they disagree with your point of view.

Well said Robert...I've been banging my head against a wall trying to explain our reasoning, but obviously there are those that will not understand it.  However, please if nothing else try and respect the work that goes into this club and the dedication required to proceed. Constant negativity is not helping anything. Both sides have spoken and this is going nowhere fast. We obviously won't change anyone's mind about why we did what had to be done.

I am truly saddened that this is what its all finally come to at OVAS and that a few ill mannered individuals have ruined what I have enjoyed for years. This situation has been growing over the past several years and I hope that the exec and club members will have the strength and solutions to bring the club back on its feet for all to enjoy again.

I have alot of comments

- if the site didnt promote and help grow the club, why do several of the previous executives feel the changes will decrease the membership of the club?
- the website could help promote the club more by having its front page up-to-date.
- all sites have some garbage. Have you been to ctv.ca lately? its normal.
- on one hand you say the website mebers make the club look bad, and then say that its only the paid members that can make it look good. If the website was so bad, why did it have over 2000 members?
- if you make the classifieds members only, even members will have to start posting elsewhere, because they will get the traffic they want, for free.
- no one will pay $20 to place an ad when its free elsewhere. Thats obvious. But some people after placing an ad will join the club after meeting people.
- people become social in stages. first people want the items for their hobby, then they may chat online, then they may join the club. its not the other way around as the executive suggests.
- 2000+ people have come in contact with ovas BECAUSE OF its online community and helped push the paid membership from 13 to over 200 in 7 years.

- if people don;t like the execs decisions, they can ask for the reasons - if the exec expects to be listened to, but insists on ignoring the concerns of those in contact with the club, or past execs that had a bigger vision, then they are doing the whole club a dis-service.

- yes websites cost time and money - but there are advertisers on the site, due to the thousands of people that come to the site.

I'd be interested in knowing the net direction of money. Is more money going from the club to support the website, or is it the other way around - is the income on the website supporting the club? I wont even mention how many join the paid membership after seeing the dynamic website.

- you say you are reaching out to the acquatic community, but have limited 2000 members of the website. Thats contradictory.

Finally, and I said this before, if you lose the traffic to the website, you will lose your first contact for thousands of potential members. People will go to other websites and never even hear the name of the club. advertisers will sell online elsewhere, people will meet that are not members, and ovas as an old-style club will dwindle and disappear.

Im trying to save OVAS too.

There are so many aquarium clubs that tried to emulate OVAS's success over the past few year, and other hobby clubs too. They saw how we grew and meetings went from 20 to 80, and auctions went from 100 to 500.

If the website is such a pain, break it off from the club and let it be run independantly.  If not , restore it. but as it is now, you've already lost many members to other local sites, and advertisers to other free sites - all to the loss of the club.

Probably the most referred to site here is RC.  Normally only to channel people to a certain thread that will help them over come what ever issue they may be experiencing.  So I popped over there to take a look, from what I see is a rather large internet enrolment and yet no matter how hard I looked there was no lounge, no classified, it was all about fish, corals and plants and sponsors.   But, most importantly I didn't see any threads that compared to this one or many before this. "I guess there doomed" by all accounts from the threads posted since the changes.

In reality this is about learning about the aquatic hobby area's, as for not being known I was steered here from an admin in Vancouver.  How could someone that is over 3000 miles away know OVAS and suggest I come here to gain the information I need.  They didn't say go to OVAS and buy used items or try and sell your stuff, there was never any mention of they have a lounge so you can discuss everything and anything non aquatic.

So OVAS is known all the way to the west coast (that I am aware of) and yet is being attacked because we are now doing what other sites are doing. Oh and on another note I did notice even RC has a free section and a premium section that guess what, you don't use unless you pay and there very well could be a classifieds located there. 

It is suppose to be summer break to give the exec some time to spend with there families before the fall comes and once again they have to meet regularly, try and please everyone with speakers and spend countless hours to help OVAS as a club grow.

As for the changes, not one of them caused me any hard feelings as I really don't need to log into OVAS to see how the play-offs are going or to buy things.  I rarely buy anything used of importance (here or elsewhere) as there is a risk of failure which in turn could cause major problems.  I know that even new has that risk, but at least it is a much lower percentage and there are warranties in place to help if you catch the problem in time.

Everyone has done nothing but ask for the reason for the changes and Robert took time from his summer to answer each one, what did he get for his time, being called arrogant.

I guess it comes down to this, the people that are truly interested in the hobby and learning will stay with the club and the ones that the exec has to baby-sit over and over will eventually leave and I am not so sure that is a bad thing for the club.  What are bad for the club are these threads?  They have NOTHING to do with the hobby but people wanting something, yet aren't prepared to stand up and offer help.  (Past Exec excluded), and it will take away any potential member as this is more a paten place then a community geared to help each other.

There is now an open position on the Exec because of all of this and for the record a very good Exec left because it wasn't worth it anymore with all this happening.  So I suggest step up and offer to take the position or stop the whining...

It's about fish, corals and plants isn't it?????  Let's go back to helping and learning and drop the constant complaining and attacking the Exec because they made a choice, which I might add didn't get much opposition when the elections were offered. 

This thread and ones like it will cause more harm to the club then any decision the Exec make.

The web aspect is important to the club/hobby as stated before due to restrictions on travel, health to name a few which is still here.

Quote from: FishPassion on July 17, 2010, 02:50:16 PM
I am truly saddened that this is what its all finally come to at OVAS and that a few ill mannered individuals have ruined what I have enjoyed for years.

Yeah.   :(

As the site is supposed to be the place where the club describes what its doing over the summer, can someone please list the open positions on the exec that members can apply for.

Thanks

And I appologize for suggesting that the exec is everyone on the exec. I meant the exec collectively. Im aware there are a few people on the exec that disagreed with the decision.

My point on the web is made. I would like to decide if I will run for the exec, to give further votes towards restoration of the website, and give the executive at least one new executive position to represent the website members.

QuoteProbably the most referred to site here is RC.  Normally only to channel people to a certain thread that will help them over come what ever issue they may be experiencing.  So I popped over there to take a look, from what I see is a rather large internet enrolment and yet no matter how hard I looked there was no lounge, no classified, it was all about fish, corals and plants and sponsors.

RC is not a local fish club, trywww.kwas.ca (http://www.kwas.ca) or www.gtaaquaria.com (http://www.gtaaquaria.com) and get back to us...

Never once did I make reference to local, I said a large on line site that deals with fish, corals and plants.

This thread has run its course, and I am locking it.