Help with breeding angels

[yellowtang]

Hi you all.
I got a pair of breeding angels.......
during the last six months my breeding angels.
about 6 to 7 times 
have been lying eggs and in fact even hatching
few days later.......the problem has always being
that the swimming fry always get eaten by the parents
even though the angels are by themselves in the tank
no other fish.....I did try removing the parents before but
the fry died anyways....no good results at the end.
everytime I see eggs and fry I always know their fate.
is there any method to raise angels without a tragic end
All I would like to see is at least one baby angel out of
50 to 75 fry.
any suggestions.
thanks

[Woody]

Angels are so varied with the fry raising capabilities it is astounishing. With a little bit more information we may be able to narrow it down, but sadly the majority of them do not raise their fry but they end up a snack.
Angels will instinctively eat their young if they feel threatened in any way. A sort of eat them now for the nutrition to spawn again soon when all danger is clear. This danger they perceive varies from fish to fish.
If they eat them during the night, leave a light in the room on so they do not perceive a threat in the dark.
Give them a few more times, I have a pair that perceive me as a threat when they have eggs or fry, they attack me and my hand, but when not they eat out of my hands.
And sadly they may never get it right and you will have to raise them yourself, a whole another topic.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Woody

[pegasus]

Other reasons:
Confined space & fish hungry. 

[yellowtang]

the mated pair reside in a 29g tank.
bythemselves........I did try feeding them all the time
as to get them full all the time,but as woody explained
once the lights are turn off at night, the fry dissapear
.......(NEVER THOUGHT OFF THAT).
once again their tank is empty.........even though there
must off being at least 50 small fry.
I'll try what woody said next time the eggs hatch.....
thanks guys......

[Julie]

YT, this was my problem with discus.  They were in a 29 alone with a few hiding places and nightime was when things disappeared.

A light may help, because the angels may be intimidated by shadows and to an extreme degree, try covering the tank or the area with eggs with some cardboard.

The problem seems to habitual unfortunately and some are worse than others.

[babblefish1960]

I should like to add to everyone's good suggestions here, with practice, the angels, all of them, eventually stopped eating their own, we provide night-lighting, protection with plants, and hidy spots with finer plants such as java moss etc..

It is important to feed the adults and let them feel in control of their space, they are fearful when rearing fry, so the less spooking the better, but all other predators in the tank should be kept well fed too, live fry lunch is just irresistible to most fish, but time and a few considerations are all you need, they may well become good parents in the end.

And in my opinion, the hobby has suffered a little from separation of natural roles, and ten fry that survive the whole experience to become adults are a far greater boon to the species than hundreds that are raised artificially, a mild way of restoring the behaviours that need to be there as they would have in the wild.

Good luck and keep trying.

[Eric]

I was only successful with angels by removing the eggs to another tank.   

Sorry to get off on a tangent, but I think Babblefish's last idea is very cool.  Do you think the experience of being parented would help the fry do the same as adults?  I assumed this kind of learning was not really on, but would love to be wrong.  Is that what you meant?

     

[babblefish1960]

Yes that is what I meant, I keep almost all of my breeding pairs with predators real and imagined(the harmless otocinclus are always being bashed), it helps the breeders learn to develop protective skills.

It's sad to watch hundreds of fry ravaged and decimated so often, but every spawn sees the fry get a little older, so that the ones that survive, have become fantastic parents themselves.

I have heavily planted and driftwooded tanks, so there are great opportunities on both sides of the luncheon menu, and to me, the survivors are really very special, they are always fierce parents in the end.

If you can stomach the losses and be patient, you may find satisfaction in helping restore the learning curve missing from hand raised fry.

[Eric]

Thanks babblefish for the detail.  I think that's inspiring me to try try again with the parents.  Yellowtang, could you post how it turns out for you when they spawn again?  It would be great to know. 
Eric

[Julie]

I don't think fish are on this level of intelligence. 
In a fishes mind, even if it means eating babies, they are protected from danger.

[babblefish1960]

I concur to a point there Julie, yet I have to ask, as I have searched within for some time about it, apart from degradation of the core of a fish through decades of inbreeding and hand raising, how might you otherwise explain the general lack of parenting abilities after having been tank raised for so many decades?

I mean of course, that the fish we see in pet stores haven't had the benefit of wildness for some time and seem to meet dismal failure repeatedly when breeding, whilst wild-caughts are sharp as tacks and whenever I treat my F-whatevers as though they were wild by providing some "wild" conditions (albeit small in similarity), after a few generations, I have the good fortune to once more have fierce and cautious parents?

Genetic tweaking has caused some fading of the original skills of the fish, yet, by the same process in reverse, I feel it is reasonably possible to improve the lot of my breeding programs and resultant fish.

Just a thought there, as it seems good for the general well-being of a species of fish to give it the old college try. A different point of view doesn't necessarily mean it won't help. It sure seemed rather quick to get the fish this helpless after so many years.

[Julie]

Seems to be taking the same route as discus. 
Introduce some wilds, could be a good thing.