Dying Demasoni

[new2H2O]

Hello,

I have a 75gal set up with Demasoni and Labs. My substrate is a mix of eco complete and fluorite and it is mainly rocky but I do have some Jungle Val in there.

The Labs are doing very well, I even have two females holding but a few weeks ago I noticed one of the Den=m just hanging out at the top of the tank, no longer responding when I put my hands up to the glass. He died a few days later. Then I noticed another one doing the same thing. I moved him to another tank where he did not get any better. He lasted a week and a half and then perished. Now a third is doing it too, he seems lethargic and uninterested in food. He hangs out in the top of the tank They all looked perfectly healthy except for the way they act.


Thought???

[Demasonian]

Hi,

Could be a couple of things. From the description, bloat or aggression seem the likeliest candidates. A few questions:

1. How old is the tank?
2. How long since you last added fish and how many?
3. What are the water parameters? (Nitrite, Nitrate and ammonia)
4. How many Demasoni total in your tank?
5. What do they look like? Bloated? Are there any marks on their bodies? Torn fins?
6. Is there any white stringey feces?

Sorry, a lot of questions, I know, but it will help to provide context.

[new2H2O]

1. tank has been up and running for three months.
2. have not added fish for at least a month
3. Water paramaters are all within normal ranges (checked them 4 days ago)
4. down to 5 demasoni...started with 7
5. the fist one was bloated but I havnt noticed that the last one or this one are...just that they dont eat or move much and stick to the surface. No marks on their bodies and no torn fins.
6. Didnt notice with the last two but this one has what looks like a piece of long hair trailing after him.

After more research it seems to me like it's bloat. Chichlid forum had a good article indicating that it would hit one after another. At htis point i am guessing the reason is overfeeding/stress.

I will get some Clout tomorrow and hope that that clears things up. Even if he doesnt make it at least a treatmetn or two may help ensure that the others dont get it.

do you concur?

[Demasonian]

As you say, it could be a combo of the two -- bloat and aggression. Aggression doesn't always manifest in physical injury to the fish. Have you noticed one or two of the other Demasoni chasing the one hanging out at the top?

First things first, for bloat, I would use Metronidazole, as opposed to Clout. Clout's a pretty heavy medication that could have unwanted effects on otherwise healthy fish. I've used metro successfully myself, both in powdered form, but even better, in sinking food pellet form. You can get it at Big Als, or that's where I picked it up anyway.

For the aggression, Demasoni kept in groups less than a dozen almost inevitably end up being groups of 1. They can be really mean fish to their own kind. Best advice I could give you is to have lots of rocks in your tank (therefore lots of territory and places to hide) and buy another 10 Demasoni. I had well over 20 in my 75 gallon and zero aggression...

[new2H2O]

The Demasoni have not been chasing just one, they chase each other around. The one at the top is the third to act like this. I will definetly buy some more demasoni but I also have Labs in the tank. I dont want to overstock...

As for the Clout as it turns out I went to Big Al's yesterday and they didnt have any but they had Metro so I picked up some of that....didnt realise it came in sinking pellet for so I got the powdered but will be sure to go back and pick some of the pellets up so that the fish that are eating get a dose every once in a while if needed. So I am doing 30-50% water changes and Metro+ daily for the next six days (7 total) and I have taken the carbon out of me filter.

anything else I can do?....I really hate loosing them, as it is I imagine I will lose the fry 2 of my fLabs are holding from the meds...

[Demasonian]

You're doing everything right so far. You might want to consider removing the stressed fish to a hospital/QT tank if you have one handy. Same with your labs, metro won't effect them (or shouldn't anyway), but it's highly likely that the fry will get eaten by the other labs and demasoni when they are spit into the tank. If you want to keep them, consider moving the mother to another tank when they've been holding for two or three weeks. Let them spit into the other tank, then move the mothers back to the main aquarium.

Back to the Demasoni, you can try rearranging your rockwork during the next water change so that the caves/territories are all redistributed.

Demasoni can be merciless when it comes to protecting territory and the right to spawn. Males will not allow competition from other males and will harass females to death in an attempt to spawn. This is why it's important to keep them in large numbers. If they lose their target in a crowd, it can allow a fish to escape. General rule of thumbs is a bare minimum of 10, but I have had the most success with groups over 15. Good odds are that the fish at the top of the tank is either the odd man out or a female refusing to spawn. Do any of the fish have white lips, by any chance?

If you're worried about overstocking, how many yellow labs do you have? What's your filtration?

In a 75 gallon with just labs and Demasoni, in addition to adequate filtration, you could easily keep 8-15 yellow labs and 15-20 Demasoni. Demasoni top out at 3.5 inches for males and 2.5 inches for females and yellow labs don't get that much larger 4.5 and 4 respectively.

[new2H2O]

Have moved the poor little one out of the tank and into a QT tank and noticed one of his fins is a little torn....something I didnt notice before. Another of the Demasoni is missing a small piece of tail and I have noticedthat one of them in particular is quite aggressive.

Rearranging the rock work may be difficult as most of it is siliconed together in an effort to reduce the possibility of any of them falling. But I can certainly do a little bit and will. Perhaps gettign some more rocks and building higher.

I have decided not to touch the holding mommy's to be and let nature take it's course. there are a lot of little hiding places that an adult fish can not get into and so some may survive on their own...besides, I dont have room to start breeding!

Did not notice any white lips but was not looking for it....what does it mean?

I currently have 7 yellow labs, 6-1 Demasoni, 2 albino plecos, 2 cory cats and 5 oto cats in a 75 with an FX5.

I know I shouldnt have oto cats in there but they do such a good job and since they are so quick have been doing really well. The plecos are getting big fast, i didnt think they would grow so quickly but they are about 3 inches each and the cats are just little guys, barely an inch at the moment.

I have made arrangements to pick up some more Bemasoni from Papdul hopefully tonight or tomorrow morning.

Thanks

[Demasonian]

Hi again - Torn fins, nipped tails, all standard in a mbuna tank, especially when Demasoni are involved. It sounds like the one fish that is aggressive is likely the dominant male - are his colours a little more pronounced than the others? This indicates dominance, although sometimes it's hard to tell with Demasoni...Faded colouration indicates sub-dominance and/or stress.

White lips are an indication that your fish have been battling it out...Demasoni are especially fond of lip-locking as a dominance game. Essentially, they wrestle with their faces. Usually, aggression starts with the dominant male warning any challenger, usually by vibrating very fast in front of them when they get too close. If the other male doesn't vacate the immediate area, the dominant will chase. Eventually, the sub-dominant will try their luck at overpowering the dominant. This leads to a lip-lock battle. The loser is usually, not always, harassed or beaten to death in the following days or weeks, unless there's enough territory for him to claim his own space.

While many other mbuna exhibit similar behaviour, I find Demasoni to be particularly nasty as they tend to gain up on the weakest link--the rejected male or the female who refuses to breed on demand. I think it might actually be a "better you than me" mentality. Whenever this happens, it's usually only a matter of time unless you intervene, which you have!

You certainly have more room to play with in your tank with those fish and that filtration. If it were me, I'd add 10 more Demasoni. All at once if they're between 1"and 2" and 5 at a time if they're over 2". I can't stress enoough that the way to keep these fish successfully long-term is to have either just 1 or more than 12.

As long as the only med you're using is metro and you're absolutely certain that your tank is fully cycled, I think it's fine to go ahead with adding more fish now.

One other recommendation, I would have for you based on your setup is that you may want to think about adding a HOB filter to compliment your cannister. HOB's make great mechanical filters and give you added biological capacity. At the same time, they provide aeration and increased circulation in your four-foot tank. Plus, you can usually find one in the classifieds here for a good price.

[new2H2O]

Well I have certainly seen him "vibrating" and yes, iscolours are much more pronounced. Though I have not noticed any white lips or lip locking.

So I guess much of the problem is not enough caves but if I add more fish I will have even less space for them all to claim....god,  Labs are easy compared to this!!!

I will be adding the Demasoni as soon as I can get my hands on them...waiting ona  few people to get back to me at the moment and tring to get mostly females as based on the little yellow spot on most of my Demosoni's anal fin I think I have mostly males.

I will also try to find a HOB filter to add to the tank.

Thanks!!!

[new2H2O]

Well, everything seems to be cleared up. added about 15-20 juvies to the tank on Sat am and have been treating with Metro+ and doing my daily water changes and things have cleared up. Everyone is eating and there is no more chasing and no one else has gotten sick.

I still have one in a QT tank and will keep treating but wont be puttinghim back into the main tank until he is fully recovered. He seems to not be getting better and I expect to lose him but such is life.

Thanks for all your help!!!

[Demasonian]

That's good news! Bear in mind, that as these juvies mature, there will be lots of chasing!! But because of the numbers you have in there, combined with good rock work, it should stop at chasing and the odd tussle. Not to say you won't lose the odd fish, especially superfluous males, but you shouldn't see any more systematic decimation of your stock.

Keep a close eye on your water parameters, though, for the next week or two and watch how much you feed.

Good luck.