advise on setting up a 20 gal tank for apistos?

[motoman]

Ok so here are my water parameters:

Out of tap after sitting overnight 12+hrs in a pail (by-passing the softner):
GH:440
KH:110
PH:7.6+ (that's as high as my indicator shows)

Out of tank which is currently 1/2 RO and 1/2 above tap water with 1-1.5" of peat moss covered by 1-1.5" of cleaned pool sand:
GH:200
KH:280
PH: 7.0

I'm not sure about the GH and KH values because the back of the test booklet says to multiply the number of drops added by 20 (for GH) and 10 (for KH) but then it has a conversion table with five different formulas. One for dH or gH, one for Clark H, one for fH, and one for hardness degrees, and the last one for mEq/L.
Which one should I be using. The booklets also has the regular ppm or mg/L guidelines of 0-60, 61-100, 101-200, 200+
According to that my water is hard as nails! I mean 440ppm for GH seems off the charts? My test kit is about a year old and I seem to remember getting similar results when I first used it. Am I reading it wrong? I guess I could bring in a sample and get it tested at the LFS to tell for sure.
If we're using a water softner at home would it be wise to just use that water instead of getting from the tap that by passes the softner? Any ideas on this stuff?
Can I keep apistos in these conditions?

[zapisto]

well ,

which test are you using ?
just tel me how many drop are you putting to make the color change ?

If we're using a water softner at home would it be wise to just use that water instead of getting from the tap that by passes the softner? Any ideas on this stuff?

the best way is use RO water or rain water filtered.

Can I keep apistos in these conditions?

with your actual parameter , iwould not recommend any apistos
even if with a fairly good acclimatation A. Cacatuoides and A. borelli will survive but you will fairly reduce their life time duration.

[motoman]

I'm using the hagen Master Test Kit?? I'm going to test again tonight to make sure on the numbers. This morning my tap water GH took 22, KH took 11 drops to change colour. The tank water was GH 10 drops and KH 28. Not sure why my KH is so high in the tank though. I'll retest and post my number tonight.

[gvv]

Your hardness is too high. Try to use RO water with very small addition of tap water, or just try replace the most of water in your tank with RO water.
After RO/DI unit and with peat substrate I have about 1-2GH and 1-2KH (but KH less than 4-5 also not good as in this case pH can change rapidly) and pH between 6 and 6.5.
It seems you have some sourse of carbonates in your water and with such large buffering capacity (KH) it will be difficult to lower the pH. In order to have the same KH as you have, I had to add baking soda and crushed coral as substrate to my malawi tank.

[BigDaddy]

After RO/DI unit and with peat substrate I have about 1-2GH and 1-2KH

Haha... I get that out of the tap!  

Although, my pH settles in my tank at 6.8 without driftwood, 6.6 with.

[gvv]

Haha... I get that out of the tap!  

You are right - I mixing with tap water 50-50. And as you mentioned I was surprised when found out with TDS meter that I have 55-70 ppm (tap water) on the input of RO/DI and 0 on the output, but... You alsways need to add micro and macro elements for you plants and water with 0 ppm is not so good.

[zapisto]

After RO/DI unit and with peat substrate I have about 1-2GH and 1-2KH

Haha... I get that out of the tap!  

Although, my pH settles in my tank at 6.8 without driftwood, 6.6 with.

it is what i am getting also from my tap
Lucky us lovers of ameriacan dwarfs  :wink:

i still use RO/DI of course my membrane life is more longer than the one of some friend in montreal  :roll:

[motoman]

Ok, well I can't see that my water is that out to lunch! I mean these readings are crazy. I'm going to take in a jar of water and have it tested at the lfs to see. Could my test kit be off? How long do they stay accurate?

[BigDaddy]

Don't take my readings as what you should have.  I'm on the Quebec side, and we have softer more acidic water than our neighbours on the other side of the river.

[zapisto]

Don't take my readings as what you should have.  I'm on the Quebec side, and we have softer more acidic water than our neighbours on the other side of the river.

true
everything depend on the way the treat the water, and what they use a mecanical treatment.

even in the same town with to treatment station have differnet water some time.

Why , If you dont want play with water parameters (what i highly recommend ) go to afraican cichlid ? shell welders ? or any other types for your water ?

i always say buy fish who will be fine in your tap water , and not try accomodate the water to your fish unless you really want theese fish and be prepare to spend time and money to give them the condition.

dont search any offense in my post just try to explain and suggest.

[motoman]

Hmm, again more to think about. I realise that water conditions vary widely but I do have access to Ottawa water from various location such as downtown, riverside hospital area, Gloucester and Greely and even Limoges so I could just fill my jugs somewhere else for my fishies at no cost. I do like the apistos and due to tank size my selections of cichlids is limited right? What types of fish are shell dwellers?

[zapisto]

Hmm, again more to think about. I realise that water conditions vary widely but I do have access to Ottawa water from various location such as downtown, riverside hospital area, Gloucester and Greely and even Limoges so I could just fill my jugs somewhere else for my fishies at no cost. I do like the apistos and due to tank size my selections of cichlids is limited right? What types of fish are shell dwellers?

not really limited.
in tganayka lake you have dwarfs
julidochromis, some lamprologus etc...
in central america you have also some fish (but if i remeber size migth be a issue) but i am not a specialist of this part of the world

most malawi is quite large fish but i am sure you found some nice fish who fit in your tank

victoria is a very shallow lake and some fish have acceptable size , but probably hard to find due to all the problems this area has.

and again even if you have access to water for free , think about the additionnal work for carry water all the time.

[motoman]

Well I've got my water problem worked out now. I'm importing water from ottawa now. My tank is now filled with soft and neutral ph water and it won't cost me a cent to keep it that way  See my other post about water issues for the solutions.
Due to the size of my tanks large cichlids are out for now but I'm interested in getting some apisto cacs and borelli. Can I have two pair in a 20 gal or should I limit it to just one. I have some caves and plants in there too so they have hiding spots and I'm just waiting for the cover to grow in. I'd like to get some panda cories to go with them and maybe something else. Any recommendations?

[Julie]

Did you use a de chlorinator on the water?

[zapisto]

I will not recommend 2 pair in 20g, but the decision is not mine
some small tetra ou Pencil fish can fit there very well along with some ottos but take care to not overload the tank.
what is important with apisto is not the volume in fact , it is the ground surface.

[motoman]

Ground surface? What do you mean by that. I've read that they like hiding spots and plants so I've started getting that done. What else can I do to make them comfy?

[BigDaddy]

What zap means is square footage.

Apistos don't care about how many gallons of water are above them.

They are territorial fish.  They live near the substrate.  And they get very cranky when people bust into their territory :lol:

For a beginner apisto keeper, a good rule of thumb is 2 square feet of tank for a pair or trio (1m/2f).

So, that could be a 15 gallon, a 20 gallon or a 25 gallon... they all have a footprint of 24 x 12.

[motoman]

Oh I see. That's good to know. I'm safe then but I may consider moving them to my 30 gal down the road as it would give them a bit more room and a larger territory. I'll stick to one pair for now. Oh and yes I've used water conditioner to de-clorinate/de-cloramine the water. That was step number 1  :wink:

[zapisto]

thanks BD for the help
english is not my native language and still need some improvement on that but i think i am not too bad

[BigDaddy]

No problem zap... we are move than happy to have contributions from someone as experienced with apistos as you on the board.