Dechlorinator Alternatives

[darkdep]

I've heard that the active ingredient in most Dechlorinators / Dechloriminators (Sodium Thiosulphate if I remember correctly) is also used in photography circles (I think it's known as "fix"...but I'm not a photographer so I'm not sure).  

I have heard that you can purchase this chemical from photography suppliers for a rediculously low price compared to what we're used to in the pet store.  You probably have to dilute it to the proper levels, but it might be possible to use this as a cheap dechlorinator.

Has anyone gone down this road?

[luvfishies]

Sodium Thio is only good for chlorine, not chloramine. Be wary of some sources of Sodium Thio as there are usually other things in it, other than just the Sodium Thio.

Right now I'm using ChlorAm-X with GREAT results. Way cheaper than the premixed stuff, and there's a couple of private sellers in Toronto that have it for about $15/lb.

Considering that 1 TEAspoon treats 40g of water, that's a lot of gallons treated for a very reasonable price. It takes care of chlorine, chloramine, AND ammonia.

[charlie]

Hello, would you share your sources in Toronto to purchase ChlorAm-X.
Regards

[luvfishies]

charlie, I found it at a Toronto forum similar to OVAS: Here's the thread that the seller posted up:

http://pna.pricenetwork.ca/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34602

There is another seller, but he's out of it right now.

C/luv

[BigDaddy]

Man... I tell ya.. so many great deals on pricenetwork... too bad it's all local pickup or delivery.....

[darkdep]

Ok, on the sodium thio for a second (simply because you seem to know luvfishes, and I'm trying to understand), you say Sodium Thio doesn't work on Chloramine.  Ok, so are you saying that the Aqua Plus stuff we buy at the LFS is not using Sodium Thio?  Or is it using that plus something else?

I was under the impression that dechlorinator, used in double strength, would neutralize the chlorine half of the chloramine molecule, leaving some ammonia in the water (which should presumably be absorbed by the nitrogen cycle).  I didn't think there was an extra chemical involved...

[luvfishies]

Well, Aquaplus, BAs water conditioner, and others do work like you say. "Technically" they "treat" chloramine, but there is residual ammonia left over. Remember, ammonia is gaseous for the most part, and WILL dissipate, given enough time. That's probably why it's not really an issue, plus the biofilter kicking in.

PRIME neutralises Cl, chloramine, AND ammonia. As does AmQuel+

The active ingredient in Prime and AmQuel+ is ChlorAm-X.

[Underwater]

forgive my lack of water chemistry knowledge, but wouldn't neutralizing ammonia cause some of the beneficial bacteria to starve, possibly forcing you to cycle again should you ever have to switch dechlor products?

I'm always wary of ammonia bonding agents for that reason.

[blueturq]

forgive my lack of water chemistry knowledge, but wouldn't neutralizing ammonia cause some of the beneficial bacteria to starve, possibly forcing you to cycle again should you ever have to switch dechlor products?

I'm always wary of ammonia bonding agents for that reason.

It doesn't REMOVE the ammonia per se... it just detoxifies it to a less harmful form for your fish.  So you would still have ammonia, but it's non-toxic to your fish, and your bacteria will still eat it up.

[BigDaddy]

You are simply removing the ammonia being added through chloramine when you do you water changes.  Has nothing to do with the ammonia that is being naturally produced by the inhabitants of your aquarium.

Short answer = biobugs will live   :lol:

[darkdep]

Ok, so I am going to assume that nobody has experimented with this.  I think I'm going to try it out and see what happens.  X=)

[TR]

It doesn't REMOVE the ammonia per se... it just detoxifies it to a less harmful form for your fish.  So you would still have ammonia, but it's non-toxic to your fish, and your bacteria will still eat it up.

Well put blueturq!

If I may... for the people who don't use carbon .... carbon that is also used in a filter system also help to get rid of the chemicals and contaminents that may reside in whatever water that is being used.

PS: I'm not suggesting you need to use carbon or that it is the "be all" here... it's entirely everyone's preference.  But it is a fact as to what carbon can assist in as well.

                         TR

[goldfish4ever]

think I'm going to try it out and see what happens. X=)

DId you ever experiment with it DarkDep?

[darkdep]

I am in the process of obtaining chems at the moment.  I have found a chemical company that will sell me both Sodium Thiosulfate and Sodium Hydroxymethylsulfonate (The latter chemical will deal with Chloramine as well as Chlorine).

It was actually really hard to find this stuff raw...and at this point I have no idea if it's financially feasible, but I am going to purchase both raw and determine if they can be used.  I'll go from there.

[jaracas]

interesting.
we think we are combating Chlorine and Ammonia...but were not

here is the molecular formula of Chloramine:
1-CH3C6H4-4-SO2NClNa 3H2O
if it were just Chlorine and Ammonia it would be some combination of Cl and NH3, but it's not

i see some form or Hydrocarbon, a Sulphite of some kind, Nitrogen, Sodium, Chlorine, some form of water compound???
maybe this compound is made with ingredients including Ammonia and Chlorine, but there is obviously alot more in it than i first thought.
Where does the carbon, sodium and sulphur gp?
the Nitrogen, Hydrogen and Oxygen can be gassed off in one way/form or another

[darkdep]

Hmm...I haven't looked at the Chloramine molecule before...

Sodium Hydroxymethylsulfonate is the only ingredient in many commercial dechloraminators (100% concentration) so it's an ideal chemical IMHO to try and obtain...should be easy to implement.

It is supposed to split the Chloramine molecule into Chlorine, Ammonia, and possibly some other remnants.  The Ammonia is ionized to NH4, the non-toxic form of Ammonia, which can then safely sit around for absorbsion by the Biofilter.

The Chlorine is neutralized, I assume in the same way (ionization) until it naturally evaporates.

The rest, is a bit of a mystery...but I'm thinking it can't leave anything harmful behind, because the chemicals claim to only be doing this.

[jaracas]

well, you learn something new every day!

now i haven't read this article fully, but i'm getting there,lol

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4786434.html

According to its redox properties, the hydroxymethylsulfinate anion reacts with chloramine in a molar ratio to 1:2 according to the following reaction:

HO--CH.sub.2 --SO.sub.2.sup.- +3H.sub.2 O+2 H.sub.2 NCl.fwdarw.HO--CH.sub.2 --OH+2 NH.sub.3 +HSO.sub.4.sup.- +2 Cl.sup.-+ 2H.sup.+

This chloramine reduction proceeds to completion very quickly, usually in about 1 to 2 minutes with the production of two moles of ammonia and about 1 mole of formaldehyde which alone does not react further, or reacts only very slowly with further chloramine.

and what i learned is that formaldehyde is the simplest form of sugar! go figure!

[BigDaddy]

Well, I knew that chloramine wasn't simply chlorine and ammonia... that there was a chemical bond there beyond the two elements.  That's why you can't treat chloramine with Thiosulfate because it simply doesn't produce the desired reaction.

But I didn't know that a bi product of the dechlor process was formaldehyde! Obviously in painfully low concentrations....

Thanks for the research!

[jaracas]

not a problem, it's what i like doing, keeps the grey matter from rotting, lol

but what it does show is that for every one molecule of chloramine treated two molecules of ammonia and one molecule of formaldehyde are produced

but, apparently, formaldehyde is a carbohydrate, so there must be some enzyme present somewhere to break that down, otherwise the concentration would increase with every water change, wouldn't it?

[BigDaddy]

Nah... I use it to treat gill flukes in Discus.  At the concentrations we are talking about, it would likely dissipate on its own.