Contractor cutting and running.

[Medym]

Well, I figured I might try to post this here because I would love to get some feedback.  A few months ago, my neighbour and I were talking about putting up a fence in our backyard.  We got a few quotes and while all reasonably priced, were still a good chunk of money.  My neighbour then finds another contractor he had experience with who comes in with a low ball of about $1500 for each of our backyards.  It was a few hundred dollars cheaper than the other quotes, and as he explained he was starting off on his own so he had to price low to get the work.  Worked out to be about $1k for materials and $500 for the labour (paid on completion)

After a few days he has about 6 of us signed up to do fences.   The quality was not the best, but I figured for a starter home, I was planning to move out of a few years from now, not a huge deal.  He finished our fence, less gates) and was moving to the neighbour's.  By this point he had been around a few weeks, played with my dog, waved to my daughter in the window, etc- we trusted the guy, big mistake.  He asked if we would be comfortable giving him the labour, promising to install the gates when he was finished with the work in the neighbours.  Seemed reasonable.  We cut him the cheque.  Weeks went by and he continued to finish the neighbour's fences (less gates).  He continued to reassure us the gates were coming.  The rain/wind/hail storm in July ended up putting a significant lean onto my fence and knocked down one neighbours.  At this point we were all largely questioning his work, a concrete form poured 4' down should not move.  Alas, he promised to fix it and kept working. 

Two weeks ago, I spoke to him, asking for when the work would be fixed and completed.  He assured me by last weekend it would be complete.  I have returned from vacation and nothing has been done, he is not returning my call, nor the calls of my neighbours.  One neighbour has gone to fix his fence to discover the concrete is in places only 9'' deep.  End of the day, I have learned a valuable lesson.

I turn to you all, to see what are our options?  One neighbour is moving to press charges for theft, as he has taken our money and failed to complete the agreed upon work.  Some want to take him to court.  My concern is if this guy is willing to screw over people like this, is him doing it again.

Does anyone have any experience in this? Suggestions or possible courses of action?  I would love to plaster this guy's name on the web and show the city of what he has done, but I am a little worried about the legal aspects involved in that.

[Hookup]

IMO invest less in "making him pay" than you would have to invest yourself in just getting it done and getting on with your life.

I wouldn't spend 100 hours of time and effort taking him to court if I could just fix up the fence myself in a weekend.

[Medym]

IMO invest less in "making him pay" than you would have to invest yourself in just getting it done and getting on with your life.

I wouldn't spend 100 hours of time and effort taking him to court if I could just fix up the fence myself in a weekend.

My thoughts exactly.  But it takes very little effort for me at my desk at lunch to do up a "contractorsname.com" and post pictures of his work and what he has done to us.  We googled him before we gave him the first cheque and did not find any red flags.  If I had, we would have gone another direction.  My concern with a site is the potential liability it might open up against me.

[Hookup]

I believe you can get into issue if you are not careful. 

I would say, if you do go with creating a "here is my story" type website, do not make it about the contractor, make it about your story and your experience.  It would be fine to list the contractors name, i think but i'm no lawyer, and make sure his name is going to get hit on the search-bots as well.

Still, i see that as time better spent drinking beer and bbq'ing in my backyard after i finish fixing my fence the right way...  even after your web-site is done, you still have a shitty fence to fix...

Believe me, its very easy giving you arm-chair advise on this one... i didn't fork over money and I don't have to deal with the crap... In your shoes, I would hope I could move on quickly, but I doubt it.

[Medym]

I believe you can get into issue if you are not careful. 

I would say, if you do go with creating a "here is my story" type website, do not make it about the contractor, make it about your story and your experience.  It would be fine to list the contractors name, i think but i'm no lawyer, and make sure his name is going to get hit on the search-bots as well.

Still, i see that as time better spent drinking beer and bbq'ing in my backyard after i finish fixing my fence the right way...  even after your web-site is done, you still have a shitty fence to fix...

Believe me, its very easy giving you arm-chair advise on this one... i didn't fork over money and I don't have to deal with the crap... In your shoes, I would hope I could move on quickly, but I doubt it.

I have moved on.  I am prepared to rebuild and get back to smoking cigars in my backyard while BBQing; enjoying the last few weeks of summer.  I would just hate to hear of someone else falling victim to his guy again.

[Jeff1192]

You definitely cannot charge him with theft. It's a civil matter and your legal remedy would be small claims court. It doesn't cost you much and you might be able to get some compensation. I think you could also report him to the better business bureau. I think they'll take a complaint even if he's not a member just to protect other consumers.

Jeff

[exv152]

^ That's right. It's not theft because he didn't take something that wasn't given to him willingly. Your only recourse is the Ontario court of justice, ie; small claims court. But small claims court does not have the jurisdiction to force him to finish the job, your only remedy would be an award for damages or return of property. But it's doable. Put your complaint in writing, get another free estimate done for the repairs (on paper) take pictures as evidence and get other witnesses to come with you or write statements supporting your claim. It's not that expensive and you can represent yourself. Otherwise, move on like you said. It's a lesson learned, and you're not out of pocket a huge sum.

[dpatte]

I would consider small claims court as well. The cases are run through quite quickly. From your story it looks like he may have done this to several people. You could all decide to file small claims at the same time. I'm not sure what the max is for small claims, but find out how much it would be to repair or rebuild to the standards you where promised - then calculate what he owes you to complete the job.

[Philnashbass]

I am a contractor myself (painting and decorating) and have to ask whether this was a "cash" arrangement. I get asked frequently to do "under the table" work to avoid the HST. I have a stock response that says in short, I am trustworthy-you can give me your house key, a deposit and you and your wife can go to work for the day while I work in your house. I pay taxes and that should give you an idea of how I operate as a professional.
I feel bad for people who get burned by shoddy contractors, but to be honest, the house owner is just as responsible on a couple of levels. First and foremost because of the aforementioned tax evasion efforts of many homeowners, and second because they think that the best deal is the cheapest deal.
I don't compete on price...ever. I compete on reputation and word of mouth referrals of my professionalism.
Buyer beware...there are too many sharks out there waiting to do us all an inservice. Just be thankful that it was only your money, time and emotions that were hurt. Thank God your family is safe from goofs like these.

[Medym]

I am a contractor myself (painting and decorating) and have to ask whether this was a "cash" arrangement. I get asked frequently to do "under the table" work to avoid the HST. I have a stock response that says in short, I am trustworthy-you can give me your house key, a deposit and you and your wife can go to work for the day while I work in your house. I pay taxes and that should give you an idea of how I operate as a professional.
I feel bad for people who get burned by shoddy contractors, but to be honest, the house owner is just as responsible on a couple of levels. First and foremost because of the aforementioned tax evasion efforts of many homeowners, and second because they think that the best deal is the cheapest deal.
I don't compete on price...ever. I compete on reputation and word of mouth referrals of my professionalism.
Buyer beware...there are too many sharks out there waiting to do us all an inservice. Just be thankful that it was only your money, time and emotions that were hurt. Thank God your family is safe from goofs like these.

We paid for material (which included tax) and labour upon the completion of the work. My understanding based on our discussions were tax was built into his estimate.  We had no desire to avoid paying the tax.  While we never signed a formal contract (yup, mistake on our part), but were given a receipt.  We had complete trust in the guy, and for him to walk was the most shocking part of this all.

[Hookup]

ahh... trust... it can be such a misnomer...  people are often offended if you don't trust them right off the bat.. you're called a skeptic, a doubter, a pain in the behind, difficult, the bad-guy... etc etc...   We are told trust is earned not given, but in so many cases if you try to confirm, validate, and in any way protect yourself you get given the guilt-trip...

[Fishnut]

Lesson learned I guess.  You get what you pay for!

FYI, small claims court limit is $25,000. I know this because I have a claim in small claims court.  When I discovered the underhanded way my son's daycare was being run...promises up the wazoo and as soon as the parents left, it was a whole other story...I'm not going to get into that now, but I'm suing for the full amount small claims court will allow.  Refund me for a portion of the cost for not giving me what I paid for and we rounded it up with punitive damages.  

I filed my claim a few months ago, I had to wait a certain amount of time to let the other party defend, then my case was put into the cue for a court date.  I'm still waiting.  One of the other parents just got hers after waiting 4 months past the defence.  I hired a lawyer to help me with mine because I wanted someone to help me write my claim and someone who I could rely on to get everything filed on time and properly.  The people I'm suing are easy to locate for serving, etc.  I'm not too sure how you would locate a contractor like that.

Anyways, when it comes to any contractor work, I always tell clients (and anyone else who asks) to START with the Better Business Bureau.  The longer they have been part of the BBB, the better.  The higher their score is, the better.  If there have been any complaints, they will be mentioned but not explained and it will say if a resolution has been achieved.  These companies are usually eager to satisfy their clients because they use their BBB status as part of their advertising.  I've hired a wildlife pest control company, a roofer, a plumber, a fencing company and a window company using the BBB.  So far, all have been great.  The fence people and window people are still pending, since I only booked them recently.  Hopefully all goes well.

Good luck!

This reminds me...I need to register with the BBB!

[Greatwhite]

Wow.. That sucks.   You definitely all got taken advantage of here.  Was anyone around to watch the work being done at all?  The posts sound like they are not in right, and somone should have spotted that right away - if they were around to see it being done.

I had fence guys do the fence at my old house...  They came in, knocked down the old fence the first day, put up new posts (very sturdy) and then the next day came in with the panels.  I COULD have gotten Joe Fenceman off Kijiji to come do it for 1/2 of what we paid, I'm sure - but I wanted a company that had been around for a while, and would be around for a while if anything ever went wrong, so we called a few "bigger" places and Total Fence won the job...

We had done windows in that house over 2 years and went with -- well -- the first company that PHONED US... "We are doing some work in the area if you'd like an estimate"... That's another thing to avoid.  Those guys are generally not big companies... Fenex, Nuden, etc are not going to cold-call people.  We did 1/2 of the windows one fall, and the rest in the spring.  By the spring, they had different windows, so we had different windows on the front of the house than on the back in the end.  Now, those guys are long gone, so if anything went wrong with the windows, we're screwed.  In our new house, Ottawa Windows & Doors got our business because they've been around a long time and their price was better than Nuden.

Live and learn, right??  If you want QUALITY, you need to take a contract that might cost a little more, with a company that has been around and wants to maintain a good reputation.  And like Fishnut says - always check with the BBB.  If they are registered with the BBB, they'll want a good reputation - and that's the only real way of checking their reputation!!

If you have a contract, signed, dated, etc with this dude - then you MIGHT have a case in small claims court.  But, if you went and bought all the materials on your own, and were just going to pay the guy to build the fence with a verbal agreement, you might be out of luck.  (been there, done that, too!)

[lucius]

+1 for BBB and being in business for a long time.  I also avoid companies that use hotmail or gmail email accounts.

[exv152]

You'd be surprised how many cases exist just in our own backyards. The way I see it, there are a few things people can do to protect themselves other than just look up a listing in the BBB (which is a good starting point). That includes (1) getting a signed contract in place (something showing the contractor's signature) before the work starts, and (2) pay according to stages of completion as opposed to dates - don't just hand over your credit card number or post dated cheques. These are key steps to protecting yourself imo.

[Coral beauty]

Dont have to say the name of the company but did he or they have multiple adds on Kijiji?
I had similiar experience with one in July. I saw an add on Kijiji and decided to email.
he call me back and arrange to come over for estemate and there is where we came in aggrement on price, he asked for a deposit of 20%. i paid and the work was to start 2 days later and completed when my wife and i come back from a 2 weeks vacation. a week went by got a call from my brother in law whom is taking care of my fish saying the fence or post has not even started. call the guy back no answer, email him and finally got a reply saying his machine is broken and he will be getting a new the next day. 3 days go by no post or fences. 2 days before we left Florida we email asking is phone # where we can call him and talk instead of emailing back and forth. he email back saying that he will be at our place the same day we arrive. got off the plane jump in the car 411 the phone # that original call us back the first time.
got the address went there, ask for the money. long story short the person that reply and set up the meeting for the estimate is different person show up to do the estimate. either way i got my money back within 2 hours after the visit. Poor old men

[Medym]

Dont have to say the name of the company but did he or they have multiple adds on Kijiji?
I had similiar experience with one in July. I saw an add on Kijiji and decided to email.
he call me back and arrange to come over for estemate and there is where we came in aggrement on price, he asked for a deposit of 20%. i paid and the work was to start 2 days later and completed when my wife and i come back from a 2 weeks vacation. a week went by got a call from my brother in law whom is taking care of my fish saying the fence or post has not even started. call the guy back no answer, email him and finally got a reply saying his machine is broken and he will be getting a new the next day. 3 days go by no post or fences. 2 days before we left Florida we email asking is phone # where we can call him and talk instead of emailing back and forth. he email back saying that he will be at our place the same day we arrive. got off the plane jump in the car 411 the phone # that original call us back the first time.
got the address went there, ask for the money. long story short the person that reply and set up the meeting for the estimate is different person show up to do the estimate. either way i got my money back within 2 hours after the visit. Poor old men

No, this was someone my neighbour found.  I have checked to make sure hes not on Kijiji or usedottawa.

I know all I need to know about the guy.  Phone numbers, emails, home address etc.  He just is not returning calls and I am not about to escalate things by going to his house.   At this point I want to ensure he never comes to my house again so I can move on with fixing his mess.

We made mistakes, learned a lesson, that is what life is about.