CO2 Regulator & Needle Valve maintenance

[magnosis]

Where could I take my CO2 regulators & needle valves to have them serviced (cleaned up & tested)?

I have two kits, both 10lbs bottles with (forgot the brand) semi-cheap-o regulators.

On the first one, the needle valve acts like I would give it 5 turns when I barely touch it. It goes from 0 bubbles/sec, to 2, to 20 with no in-betweens or fine grain adjustment. That is regardless of the output pressure I set on the regulator (usually I set it at 40psi)

On the second one, I think the regulator is busted, or something wrong with it beyond my comprehension.  I watched it for an hour yesterday and had a hard time maintaining output pressure.  It started at 40psi with 2 bubbles/sec, but after a while the pressure dropped and it was outputting 1 bubble / 4 seconds.  I dialed it up to 40psi again, and after another 15 minutes it dropped to 5psi with little to no output at all.

The worst part is that sometime during the day, something happened. I got home, the diffuser had popped out (while I was having a hard time removing it by hand!), and I think the bottle emptied most of itself...  Anyways, the left dial is at 0 (tank empty?) and the right dial will not go *below* 65psi.  If I dial it all the way down, it stops letting CO2 out but stays at 65psi.  If I turn the dial the other way, the pressure goes up and the bubble counter goes from 0 to 1000 (welll. just a constant stream that's impossible to count).

This is making me nervous.
I opened the windows and turned the air exchanger to full speed for a couple hours. I'm not overly concerned with our health but I just can't trust that thing at all now.

So.

Who / Where can I take my regulators to, and have them looked at and possibly fixed?

I do not have an air compressor or the necessary fittings to hook one bottle into the other's regulator and blow CO2 in 'reverse' to clean out particles clogging it or whatever could be the problem (that solution was suggested last year when I had similar problems adjusting the output flow)

[exv152]

Does your regulator look like this?

[magnosis]

Yes.
The one that (I think) busted yesterday has the left gauge sitting at 0, and the right gauge won't go lower than 60psi.  I'm confused.

[charlie]

Drop them off one day( with one bottle with gas), I`ll take a peek 

[magnosis]

That would be great.  I'm willing to pay for your time as well as it would likely be cheaper than getting new ones aha

[exv152]

Hopefully you didn't blow your working pressure gauge. Did you set the working pressure down to zero before connecting & turning the main cylinder on? If anyone can, Charlie will be able to get to the bottom of it.

[magnosis]

Uhhhhh maaaaaybe not? LOL

Okay totally guilty. I left it in the same position it was because I didn't want to re-caliber it again, took me forever.

Yes, that was dumb. Is probably what happened, pressure burst, bam. busted. Well, we'll see. Maybe I got lucky.

[sas]

Here's hoping you catch a break.
Keep us posted so we can all learn, heavens knows
we've all made mistakes.

[magnosis]

Thank you charlie!

On the more recent regulator, one of the gauge is half-busted. It's zero point is now 60psi. Other than that it seems to work well.

The other regulator has a leak on the bubble counter. This one was bought used a few years ago, from a member who had also bought it used.  The top of the bubble counter receptacle is uneven and when shut with the cap (where the tubing is attached) even with the same o-ring / seal as the other one, it leaks.  This can probably be fixed by cleaning it well, if not, maybe sanding it a little bit to make it even and smooth.  The needle valve is also finicky; it takes only a quarter turn to go from 0 to a lot of bubbles per second.  I will write to Milwaukee and see if they can ship me a new one.

[exv152]

I would look into upgrading to a better needle valve. Some of the cheaper valves tend to drift so you'll find yourself constantly adjusting the bubble count. Quality needle valves include: swagelok, fabco, ideal valve and parker.

[magnosis]

Aaaaaaw the valve just broke  and the co2 bottle emptied itself (most of it) in minutes!

It was fine for 4 hours this morning despite the needle valve being finicky.

Minutes after we went up for lunch my 3yo came to ask me what was that noise... uh oh. By the time I ran down, checked quickly to see what was going on and turned the valve off I was already feeling a bit dizzy :x Emptying a bottle in the house overnight may not be critical but being blasted in the face was cold and unpleasant!

The gas was coming out of what looks like an overflow valve (?) on the opposite site of the needle valve. In the picture above it's located on the left side.

Any idea why that would give up after 4h of seemingly correct operation? Is this really an overflow? I might have missed it but I was fairly attentive this morning and the pressure was not building up at least not according to both gauges

[magnosis]

I've emailed Milwaukee yesterday and they've helped me figure out what happened. They also allowed me to copy their feedback here so that everyone can benefit

In short, the problem lies with the diffuser I am using - a Fluval ceramic disc.  I will not be using those again, ever. 

Basically, you should be able to blow your breath into it and see bubbles coming out. This is far from true with this unit. I found that it needed quite a bit of pressure before it started diffusing gas through the disc. I've tried 2 different units, and 5 different (brand new) discs and they are all the same.  They simply don't work well in my own experience.

As a results, pressure will build up in the line and feedback into the regulator (aka backpressure) and this creates all sorts of problems.  Here's a copy of the discussion I had with Milwaukee.  Read the first PDF for a description of the backpressure "yo-yo" effect.

Issue #1 - the needle valve [has] been extremely finicky [...] It takes only about a 1/4 turn of the dial to go from 0 bubbles per second to a constant stream, more than is possible to count by human eye.

Issue #2 - gauge needs replacement. The gauge zero position is now at 60psi.  The needle still moves but it zero's at 60.

Issue #3 - critical failure? leaked gas at high pressure.
I hooked up the regulator unit to a new bottle this weekend.  IT's been working fine for 4 hours, with a working pressure around 40PSI (gauge points to 100, but remember it is zero'ing out at 60) and bubble count around 2 bps.

It worked fine for 4 hours. Then PSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHH!!

Something happened, I ran down to check, and gas was escaping the unit at high pressure & low temperature.  The entire 10lbs of CO2 emptied itself in a matter of minutes. I noticed gas was escaping at high pressure from what looks like (?) an overflow valve on the left side of the unit.

Issue 1 & Issue 3 are tied together. According to what I understand below it sounds like you have a clogged needle valve and need to do a clog needle valve repair procedure as described in our technical tips section of our website at the following link: http://www.milwaukeeinstruments.com/pdf/clogged_needle_valve_repair.pdf you also need to take time to test your down-line back pressure by blowing your breath into your gas line. If you have to strain to blow your breath through the gas line this will cause severe back pressure in the regulator which directly contributes to an inability to calibrate bubble count. The regulator operates at a lower PSI than your breath so you must be able to blow your breath without exerting extra pressure through the gas line -- check any diffusers, air stones crimped tubing or check valves that may be causing reduction in gas flow. The gas escaping through the side of the regulator is from the "emergency blow by valve" this is the last safety valve in your regulator and is activated when the chamber pressure becomes too high. Once this emergency blow by valve has been activated it will dump the entire tank of gas unless you turn the gas tank off.

Issue number 2: The right side gauge that has become blown is of no consequence. When properly setting up the regulator please see this link for setup procedure: http://www.milwaukeeinstruments.com/pdf/MA957%20Regulator%20Set%20Up%20Procedure.pdf

"The regulator operates at a lower PSI than your breath"
How high can it go?
It was previously suggested that I set the working pressure between 30 and 50PSI in order to make it easier to adjust the needle valve and have been going with this working pressure since day 1...  Is this a problem?

The regulator chamber can go past 100 psi but it Needs to be set below 10 psi in chamber for proper flow and to be able to have the solenoid be able to turn flow on and off.  If your PSI is too high then the solenoid can not stop the flow of gas.  It is just like putting your thumb over the end of a water hose.  When the water flow is low you can stop the flow when the pressure is high you just get wet!!!!

You can replace the right side gauge but it serves no use – read the instruction for set up on line.

Do I need to reset the blow off valve or will it "recover" as soon as the pressure drops in the chamber?

No, when the gas is turned off the emergency blow by valve shuts off automatically and resets.

[exv152]

Hi Magnosis, I run a couple of regulators with pressurized co2, and I'm not an expert by any means, but my experience has been that if a diffuser clogs (and it happens) the tubing usually pops off right at the connection with the diffuser, or the tubing will pop off somewhere else along that line where it has the weakest link. Because the tubing is a far weaker connection in your system than the regulator body. But if your safety valve blew on the regulator body itself, my first hunch is to suspect a blockage closer to the regulator body, like the needle valve or the connection between the reg body and nv. I would either repair or replace the nv, and replace the wp gauge, or look into getting another regulator (there's a quality one currently in the classifieds
).

[charlie]

I`m with Eric on this one, one diffuser I can understand but as you stated you tried several and all caused the back pressure, not likely the Fluval Diffuser as I have used them & they don't usually require a lot of working pressure for them to work.
Errol

[magnosis]

The tube was already popped out of the diffuser when I noticed that the safety valve has triggered...

Possible that it literally popped microseconds before/after?  or that there was still enough pressure building up in the line that it popped *after* the safety valve opened?

I understand what you are saying and cannot disagree. But.. what I'm describing (and I'm sure of hit, 100% positive it was detached from the diffuser) doesn't add up.

Yeah, I'll try and replace the whole unit. I don't trust it anymore.