Aggression in Malawi tank

[srenka]

I have a relatively new 55g Malawi setup consisting of 5 Yellow Labs (can’t sex, but seems like 2 are males), 5 saulosi (at least one male, possibly 2), 3 c. Afra (2 males and probably 1 female) and 1 bn pleco.  They are juveniles, but the dominant cAfra male was the largest and now has his adult colours.  He is the one that is now starting to push other fish around, especially the other c.Afra male (even the famle).  My original plan was to have 1 male to 3 females ratio for 4 species, but when getting juveniles this is not that easy.

So now what should I do?  I’m trying to get more c.Afra females but can’t find any.  Should I add another species to crowd the tank, or get more of the ones that I currently have?  Anything else I can do?

Sarenka

[cory]

iu have a 125g with around 30 fish and my aggressive was fine at first...now its total chaos...most of the aggression is from my cyno afra male.

[kennyman]

Two ways to go that I can suggest. Maybe others have more ideas. A) Species only B) Heavy stocked assorted cichlids

Species only may not look as flashy but in a smaller tank like a 55 I dont think you can really have more than one breeding male withoug alot of stress. I like to see mine exhibiting what I figgure is natural behavior in a species tank.

Overstock, I have even talked with people who have all male mbuna tank and wihtout the breeding females around there seems to be only little quarrels over turf. It looks really impressive but I think the key is for no one to have turff and breeding teritories. Basicly they are so crowded they cant exhibit their natural teritorial behaviour.

I ran into the same kind of trouble you have asked about earlier this year and advice I got was to go species only from someone who has kept and bread cichlids for over 25 years. I am glad I went this route. Sometimes my tank is dull but my prize male is always displaying and someone is always carrying fry. Also there are three age groups in my tank with more around the corner. It makes for an interesting lilttle world.

Good luck

[Mettle]

What species is it that you have in there, Kennyman?

I've been interested in doing an African set-up since forever but have never had the guts to go for it. A species specific set-up sounds interesting if you have a smaller sized tank. (Anything less than 100 gallons, I've heard.) But I have no idea what type I would go for.

[darkdep]

I wouldn't crowd the tank anymore...it's actually pretty crowded now.  I have less than that in my 90!

The Afra's are probably leaving the labs alone in general, I'm guessing?  Your male is probably picking on the fish with similar colouration.  

IMHO, if you're going the 1male -> many females route on purpose, it means you'd like them to breed.  I think you have too many fish in that tank if that's your goal.  

I would remove all the Afra.  The labs and saulosi should be fine together.

Well, actually, if it was ME I'd keep the Afra and remove the saulosi, but that's more fish to relocate.

[srenka]

I wouldn't crowd the tank anymore...it's actually pretty crowded now. I have less than that in my 90!

I was actually trying to crown them a bit, just so any aggression will be spread around.  I think when they all grow up this may actually be the case.  Now the Afra is the largest, so he is the boss.

The Afra's are probably leaving the labs alone in general, I'm guessing?  Your male is probably picking on the fish with similar colouration.  

He is most aggressive to his own kind, but does chase the labs and saulosis around a bit as well.  As of yet, he didn’t inflict any visible damage on any of them, but I’m thinking about what will happen when they grow up.

IMHO, if you're going the 1male -> many females route on purpose, it means you'd like them to breed.  I think you have too many fish in that tank if that's your goal.  

I’m not really looking to bread them.  Just want them to get along a bit.

I would remove all the Afra.  The labs and saulosi should be fine together.

Well, actually, if it was ME I'd keep the Afra and remove the saulosi, but that's more fish to relocate.

I guess a better solution would be to get a bigger tank :-) Anybody has a 90 for sale?

[darkdep]

If your goal is not to breed, then the harem setup isn't necessary.   5 each of lab / saulosi is too much.  Maybe lose one female of each...

Another thing to remember is that Africans are aggressive by nature; it IS part of their personalities and you can't really eliminate it.  

My dominant Cobalt Blue can be an absolute jerk sometimes to the other fish in the tank...but I just sit back and watch.  It's part of nature and since he's not inflicting any actual damage, I let nature take it's course.

[srenka]

Another thing to remember is that Africans are aggressive by nature; it IS part of their personalities and you can't really eliminate it.  

I know, that’s why they are so interesting.  There is always something happening in the tank.

My dominant Cobalt Blue can be an absolute jerk sometimes to the other fish in the tank...but I just sit back and watch.  It's part of nature and since he's not inflicting any actual damage, I let nature take it's course.

I agree and as long as they aren’t hurting each other I don’t mind.  I think I will leave them as they are, and will only intervene if they start hurting each other.

sarenka

[pegasus]

I agree and as long as they aren't hurting each other I don't mind. I think I will leave them as they are, and will only intervene if they start hurting each other.

You got it right.
I have aggression in all my mature African tanks and that's NORMAL.... to me... chasing is not aggression, injuring is.

[CdnRednek]

IMHO........you have way too many cichlids in that tank.  Overcrowding the tank will just make any aggression worse, each time I have moved my cichlids to a bigger tank (staying with our original six fish), there has been a definite drop in aggression.  The only time we really have any problems with fighting is when the Yellow Lab is carrying eggs.  She of course is very protective which causes a chain reaction, she chases one and so on it goes down the line.  If I had it to do all over again, I would go with males only.

[maitre007]

i have to somewhat disagree that overcrowding creates aggression.  in some case having more cichlids in a tank dimishes the aggression.

i do not think that per se, your tank is overcrowded.  in my 55 gallon, i have 4 yellow labs, 2 brichardi's,  Dimidio. compressiceps, frontosa, 2 pseudotropheus flavus, 2 acei's, 7 neolamprologus buescheri's, 1 julidochromis regani, 1 black calvus ,3 lithobates (albeit they will be moving into my 125 very soon as they are getting close to adult size) and one Astatotilapia nubulis (very aggressive fish) and I have ZERO problem with aggression.

however this balance was achieved through trial and error.  many of the habitant from my 55 were in my 125 and i had to move a few fish around to get the right mix of "personality" together to be able to have that many fishes in my 55 gallon.

also you have let the aggression takes it's course.  it appears that your tank is relatively new and as such your fishes are jockeying for position to establish the pecking order.  once that pecking order has been established, the aggression will wither away and it will become simple playfull chasing around.

then again ... i always find the odd cichlids at the bottom of my 125 gallon tank battered with extreme prejudice.  i think my auratus is responsible for that since they always seem to be in his section of the tank.

which really makes you wonder about the fish store employee that told other member that they could keep 2-3 aurutus in a 29 gallon aquarium

[maitre007]

oops. i forgot.  i have also 3 yellow cyp afra in the 55 gallon.

maybe zero problem with aggression is an overstatement.  i had initially attempted to make it a breeding tank for my astatotiapia nubulis until the nubulis proceeded to kill the female.  

then I started to dump some of my fishes from my 125 into the 55.  then i attempted to have more than 2 brichardis but all the others that i would put in my tank would turn up half eaten.  

the thing is that there are A LOT of hiding space in my 55 aquarium.  i mean with the exception of feeding time, i am lucky if i am able to see 1-2 buescheri.  ditto with my frontosa and my calvus.

[darkdep]

maitre:  Now, YOU my friend, have an overcrowded tank.  :lol:

I agree with you on the aggression points.  Overstocking usually lowers aggression as opposed to raising it (that's been my experience as well).  The pecking order thing is true too...once territories are established, they just chase each other mostly.  Assuming you don't have any psycho fish.

[kennyman]

Yes it does lower aggression but it does so by preventing the fish from exhibiting its natural behaviour. I have thought about this a bit trying to decide which way to go for my own tanks. I felt that a display of colour and fullnes (lots of fish) in a display or show tank was not a good longterm way to keep fish that can live around 10 years.

You guys must think I am crazy for keeping only 6 adult mbuna in a 55g! But half a dozen 5"- 6" fish seems plenty to me in a tank that is only 12" wide.

[maitre007]

i don't think it is crazy to keep so few fishes (5-6) in a 55 gallon.  i didn't plan to have so many fishes in my 55 gallon.  and it is not my long term plan. i am hoping to be able to move into a larger pad to have another 55 in the next 12 months.  


however by mixing fishes that hide in the bottom (i.e. buescheri and julidochromis) with fish that stay on top of the tank then you can make more effecient use of your space. by the way, i have only 4 fish that are 4-5 inches in that tank. the rest have not yet reached their adult size or max out at 3-4

and i have seen many pictures of malawi cichlids in the wild and the natural behavior is to live in a highly densited environment.

[repeej]

Can't say I have any agression in my 55 and I have more fish then matire007 in mine.  I'm not planning to keep this many for very long but everyone appears to be getting along and there is never a dull moment.

Anybody wanna buy some fish?   LOL

[srenka]

I must say, the aggression has diminished now (about a month now).  It seems that everybody has found their place, and other then some minor chasing, everything is fine.  Even the BN pleco is coming out during the day.

Sarenka