Puzzling results after Filter Shut Down!

[dan2x38]

A week ago shut down my QT. Just put all the media into the tank to keep it wet excepting to get back to shortly. A lot has happen so I did not find the time to get back to the QT so it has sat for a week without running. I usually feed the nitrifying bacteria every 3 days with 8-10 drops of NH3 then test once a mon. approx. The tank is an Eclipse 6g with in hood bio-wheel filter.

With all the talk about power outages and whether nitrifying bacteria would survive or for how long I decided to try some experiments with this tank & media.

I tested the water parameters the results were:
               - current water parameters
     July 27: NH3- 0,  NO2- 0,  NO3- 10,  pH- 6.6,  KH- 0 to 1,  GH- 3.0; this surprised me, except the KH & GH
               - previous water parameters
     June 15: NH3- 0,  NO2- 0,  NO3- 5,  pH- 6.8,  KH- 3.0,  GH-  6.0
               - temp. 75f with no heater running

There are still pond snails alive in the tank. I had some plants in the QT for 2 weeks prior to shutting it down. Presently I restarted the bio-wheel filter with the origianl media.

After my testing I added 8 drops of NH3 at 12:45pm. I waited 20 mins. 1:05pm tested the water: NH3-1.0,  NO2- 0. I intend on trying to test NH3 & NO2 at least every 6 hours. If NH3 & NO2 reach zero I am going to add a larger dose of NH3 to see the results for: NH3, NO2, & NO3.

This is only a small tank so I suspect any changes would show a dramatic shift in parameters. I realize these tests may not be all that helpful for SW ppl. I do think it can give some real data results for consideration.

If anyone has any tests they want or suggest me to run I will keep it up and running. Does anyone feel these results are of any real benefit?

[dan2x38]

8:00pm NH3 shows trace, NO2-0

Will check these readings again before bed... 

[RossW]

Very interesting... keep us updated.

[dan2x38]

Does anyone have any input on these results or the previous tests? Or a hypothesis on any of these tests?

11:00pm NH3 was barely detectable...
after above test added 12-14 drops of NH3...
waited 20 mins. 11:20pm NH3 1.5 - 2.0...

In the AM will test again... if NH3 has decreased will wait then 4 - 6 hrs. later will test... if NH3 is zero will add larger dose of NH3... if no change in NH3 will wait until later to see if it will decrease...

I believe if the NH3 returns to zero with a 3rd increase to the bio-load with pure NH3 then the nitrifying bacteria is functioning. Therefore by placing the filter media in the tank water during a power outage should mean it can be preserved for much longer then 24 hours.

To futher support this finding I will continue to test over the next few days with small changes to the bio-load followed by testing. I would not feel right or think it would be humane to use live fish for such testing. Still interested in any input or suggestions for testing.

[MikeM]

These bacteria, especially the nitrite eating one, nitrospira, I believe, reproduce pretty slowly.  I wonder if the slow reproduction is an indicator of a slow metabolism overall... If that's the case, the bacterial colony should be able to stay alive, albeit not reproducing, for a pretty long period of time when ammonia or nitrite wasn't readily available, on the order of at least several days, as long as there is oxygen.  In the absence of oxygen, there may be a dormant period prior to the bacteria actually beginning to die off.

I recently treated my tank with antibiotics, but before I did, I took about 1/2 my bio media out of the filter and put it in an ice cube tray (suboptimal, I think), in a rubbermaid tub with an airstone, and fed it 1/2 a capful of ammonia every other day.  This kept it alive and easily reseeded my tank after the antibiotics were gone.  And even during the antibiotic treatment, I definitely saw some ammonia, but the water changes handled it, and I don't think the filter was ever completely trashed, just much much less effective.

Your results seem to suggest the biofilter might be a little hardier than we give it credit for.  It would be interesting to know more, especially how long they can survive in a low-oxygen environment, like a shut-off canister filter, if you're inclined to continue your experiments.  I was going to take my seed media from my 29 once I'm done seeding with it, and throw it back in the jug and see how long it'll last without the airstone...

[babblefish1960]

In both cases, these are interesting studies. Having said that, I shall add some rain to your findings, it is much more informative to have a control group to compare findings with and to set a base line for what it is you do discover.

I shall also say that there are some actual scientists, chemists and laypeople here in this sort of business that could offer more refined particulars as to how to best approach this as an experiment than I ever could.

Yet I think that this is just such an interesting set of investigations that I would hope eventually some of the resident experts would come out of the woodwork and offer some suggestions as to how to treat the data you recover and help define how to establish parameters for creating a meaningful array of potentials and what the findings mean.

Good luck with all of that, and don't forget to write everything down in a journal including the ambient conditions in the rooms.

[MikeM]

Indeed, without a control, and well-documented conditions to make the experiment repeatable, the results are merely anecdotal.  To yield any sort of useful results, I would think I would have to do something like this:

9 containers with equal volumes of water at equal pH and hardness
3 at a lower temperature, say 72 F or so, 3 in the middle at room temperature, and 3 at the high end at 82 F.  The temps would have to be checked daily.  For each set 1 container with an airstone, being fed ammonia at regular intervals to serve as the control, one container with an airstone not being fed to determine how long until the bacteria starve given oxygen, and the final container without an airstone and a sealed top, simulating the low-oxygen conditions in a disabled canister filter.

All the media would have to be seeded in a common container, to assure the same strains of bacteria in each sample, then separated.  Then it would be a matter of testing and dosing at regular intervals, leaving a progressively longer interval between dosings for the non-control samples until either a nitrite or ammonia reading is observed.

While this would say nothing of the effect of pH on the biofilter, it might give useful information about how a biofilter deteriorates in the absence of ammonia alone, and in the absence of ammonia and oxygen as would occur during a power outage in a canister.  All said, that's a heck of a lot of work, that I don't really have time to do right now, but might make an interesting project during the winter hibernation.

[babblefish1960]

I believe that this would satisfy the persnickety with respect to seeing the origins of the records as pertains to the effects, as you say, upon pH on bacteria, but understandably, it would require a ton of space and time.

The information is still interesting without the proofs, it merely slows the Q.E.D. down when unable to reproduce the results.

I can't believe you say you haven't the time, what else could there possibly be to do out there these hot summer days?

Have fun with the observations.

[dan2x38]

9:00am NH3 was .25 or less, NO2- 0

By 1:00pm will test again for NH3. If it is like I predict to be zero I will add a larger dose of NH3.

I agree with all of what has been said. It is no were near a controlled study or test. I do think it gives a good baseline for further investigation. I believed that after I removed the media without feeding it or good aeration it would have died.

Without any aeration, heaters, or lights moving the media from the filter into the tank would likely keep the media alive during a power outage for at least several days. This would be better than doing nothing!

If there was CO2 injection that would cause issues especially with plants and no lights. With opening hoods & glass tops plus a drop in temps hopefully would add increase O2 and gas exchange. Of course there could be no feedings. Now that would be with live fish so natural NH3/NH4 would be feeding the filter. With the filter not flowing could the bacteria stay populated enough to handle the bio-load. I would suspect the bio-load would increase?

I live in an apartment there would no way I could conduct a legitimate test or sampling scenario further then I am doing. Besides my wife would disown me once and for all... 

[Sue]

This is an interesting thread. That would be a fantastic science fair project covering a number of variables. Maybe OVAS could mentor some kid next winter if any of you have a budding scientist in the right age group. One could use a fridge for cold temp, and an aquarium heater for warmer temps, and store filter media for different times.
I would like to see the ammonia level measured when he first added it. A 'time =0' reading then the rate of its removal measured over time after he turns on the filter. You might need more time points at the beginning depending on how fast the ammonia is removed. You wouldn't get a nice looking graph if you miss the top end of the curve. The more live bacteria left in the filter the faster the rate of removal. You would have to have a control to account for the rate of ammonia removal by live bacteria in the tank alone (no filter). You would also need a control test for what the dormant filter itself releases to the tank when you first turn it on. It might cause an ammonia surge all by itself.

[dan2x38]

1:00pm NH3 is still detectable

waiting another 4 hours before dosing again with increased NH3


PS- modified previous reading for NH3 it was posted as 2.5... BUT it was actually 0.25

[dan2x38]

Will test NH3 & temps. again at 11pm then again in the AM. If NH3 reaches zero again I will test: NH3, NO2, & NO3. Depending on results will likely not add anymore NH3. If someone has a request or suggestion for any further testing let me know.

6:05pm NH3- 0, added 20 drops of NH3

waited 30 mins. 6:35pm NH3 was 3.0

Something odd the air temp vrs. tank temps. There was a large difference throughout the day:

   - morning tank 76, air 77
   - noon tank 77, air 74
   - late aft. tank 77, air 72
   - 8pm tank 77, air 71.5

temps are with a digital thermometer

We run our AC 24/7 but at night turn it up to 75 low fan until morning then throughout the day change fan speed med.-high plus lower temp. down to 72-70. I would have suspected that the water temp. would drop more with the air temp changes? There is no sunlight on this tank what so ever.

DarkDep in another thread on power outages said the water temp. in a large body would hardy show any signs of dropping in a short period of time say 6 hours. This tank is only 6 gals. with evaporation and removing test water it can only be around 5.5 gals.

[babblefish1960]

Water is a universal solvent, and for much of science, it is a benchmark against which all other known facts are based, 100 degrees celcius is the boiling point of water, zero degrees celcius is the freezing point of water. Additionally, it is the medium for which British Thermal Units (btu's) are measured as it is ideal for heat mass storage, it sheds and gains heat much more slowly than the ambient air. Although air is governed by fluid laws, it has no real meat and is therefore susceptible to change more quickly.

This is the principle reason cities that are near large bodies of water have more moderate temperatures throughout the year, as they are protected from swift air temperature changes by what is called a "lake" effect.

So don't be too surprised at the slowness with which the tank absorbs or loses heat when the ambient room temperature is so close in degrees Fahrenheit as your figures show.

[dan2x38]

I will test once more for NH3, NO2, & NO3 but think this has run it's course. I have no doubt that the NH3 will be zero by my next test at 2pm. For arguments sake I will post my last test results.

10:00am   room temp. 76.3, tank temp. 77.8 ? Strange I would have suspected the tank temp. would be equal room temp or less by now? A/C was running at 75 low fan all night.

10:00am   NH3- 0.5,  NO2- 0,  NO3- 15  With these readings it seems to me that the nitrifying bacteria (bio-filter) is functioning very well. It is adjusting and balancing the bio-load.

10:00am   pH- 6.8,  KH- 0 to 1,  GH- 3.0  PH did change since start of test but I suspected it would with such a low KH. If there was a long power outage I would consider buffering to stabilize the pH from swinging causing pH shock.

I found this very interesting and informative. The first results surprised as did the tank & room temps. One thing for sure I am not going to panic quite as much during a short power outage. I will still obtain a UPS to keep my filters up and running; why risk it? Also I am comfortable with water temp. drops during a winter outage. I would definitely lift the lids on all my tanks.

[dan2x38]

I ended up testing at 3pm but did not have a chance to post. Final test results: NH3- 0, NO2- 0, NO3- 15... pH did swing to 7.0 and KH was still at 0-1, GH unchanged at 3.0.

From these basic results I would be reasonably comfortable during a power outage moving my filter media into my tank water. I'd open the hoods, turn-off CO2 in my planted tanks, and stop feedings. When I restarted I would do large WCs, increase aeration, and move media back into filters. Of course check water conditions often making sure they were stable and handling the bio-load. I am also comfortable in the fact that my temps. would not drop much. All though I would be concerned about the KH buffering ability if there was a prolonged outage. When power returned I would have to be very concerned of the KH buffering monitoring it with the pH often.

Of course this is in my opinion and by no means confirmed from my rudimentary testing results but it does ease my mind some what!  With this data and a UPS I am certain I now have a good emergency plan for a power outage for an extended period. This is of course for a FW set-up. BUT for that time I would have no finger nails left... 

Prove would still be in the pudding!

[RossW]

Awesome work Dan!

I agree with your conclusion, I would do the exact same during a power outage.

Thanx for the hard work!