Spawning/Raising : Let nature be?

[pegasus]

In the " Breeding Appisto Borelli " thread two opinions/techniques were formulated:
Woody wrote:

.......I hatch a lot of my eggs artificially, and use disposable plastic tupperware containers to hatch eggs until the fry are free swimming, and with some species longer.

zapisto wrote :

........Personnally i am not doing artificial hatch , i am against that when the fish can do it.

I used and still practicing both techniques, plus stripping and letting the mouth brooders release their fry. So I guess I'm sitting on top of the fence looking on both sides. Well not quite centered... I lean toward the artificial even if I can recognize the beauty of letting nature do its work (my N. brichardi albino are successfully breeding and raising their fry in a control environment).

On one side you have the NATURE clan that will tell the ARTIFICIAL clan is robbing the fry of their parental education, that they will not know what to do when it will be their turn. While the ARTICIAL clan says nothing and continues in their practice.

Question is: Where do you stand?
OUUUFFF ! This is not another abortion debate !  

[BigDaddy]

Personally, I think it depends on the fish.

Some fish just don't get it (I've had rams that were awful parents), but do properly fertilize.  So an artificial hatch is a requirement.

If you can afford to have dedicated breeding tanks for your pairs/trios... I let nature take its course unless things go horribly wrong.  If I NEED to go artificial, I will.

But yeah... half the fun in breeding is watching the behaviours associated with it!

[gvv]

First of all we need to clarify that we are talking about cichilds. If this are barbs, tetras and so on - you don't have the other chance

I think that the approach you are selecting depends on what you are expecting:
If you are breeding for life you most probably without hesitation take the eggs/fry from the parents and do the job yourself. I remember the guy whos "specialty" were rams. He never ahd any substrate or plants in his bare tanks with breeding pairs, just an attached piece of artificial plant where they layed the eggs. He mentioned to me that he cannot let parents deal with fry as he need at least 100 new fry per week (more - better). So he ususally took the eggs as prefered artificial hatch. But he had one pair that was do a great job themselves, so he was leaving the fry with them and took when they were able to take cyclops or BBS.

On the other hand, I would like to watch the parental behavior of the fish and try not to take the eggs - I did it only once with my angels to get some fry. With my dwarf cichlids I use to get one-two weeks old fry from the tank if there is interest for this type of fish, or leave them in the tank with parents and take them off when their own parents start hunting them otherwise. I tried to take fry earlier, but found out that they are much more stressfull during the first days and do not take the food so easily as week later in the new tank.

As for "education"... Looking at the fry and parents, I should say that they already born with doctor degree. Have you ever seen how fry response to the pelvicachromis parent movements? And they do it as soon as they start to swimm. Unless they were told how to behave while they were "eggs-with-tails"

So, this depend on circumstances... :?

Regards

[gator]

I've let my scianochromis fryeri (sp?) breed in my 40 gal, without stripping or removing the female or fry.   I still have 4 fry left, each a little over 1/2" in size.  They hide in/under the rocks, and dart out to take small pieces of flake on occasion.  I've borrowed a technique from feeding corals:  I crush up some flake, put it in a small container of tank water, suck it up with a pipette (you can use a turkey baster) and slowly expell the bits of flake in the areas I know the fry are hiding.  They dart out and take the bits, and then head for cover.

I don't know if this technique will work long term since I am kind of "shooting from the hip" but it seems to be working so far.  It could have something to do with the fact that I only have one male, one female and a single pleco in the tank, plus tons of rock and hiding places.

(Pegasus - much to my delight, you were right about the sexing of the electric blue haps!)

-Tom

[mseguin]

With my apisto cacatuoides, I tried to let nature take over about 8 times but no free swimming fry ever appeared, so finally, the next time they spawned I took the cave and put it in a separate tank, and voila, fry. But if my kribs ever spawn I will leave them alone, as they are fascinating to watch.

[zapisto]

very good thread.

i never  raise any of my apisto artificially , and i can say i breed about 2 dozen different species.

of course , i am breeding for learn the fish and see their behavior.

i have relatively short experience with african so i will talk here what about i breed most (dwarf cichlids, mostly apisto, but laetacara, badis, tanganaika conchilicols, pelvicachromis, etc).

i did try rams and found it is very hard to get a pair who will take care of the eggs or fry , it is why i say : "......when the fish can do it."

and when i say breed , mean get the fish spawn and raise the fry to sexable size (aout 3 months).

[mseguin]

I agree, breeding behaviour is one of the most fascianting aspects of fish keeping, which is why I was really disappointed my cacs couldn't raise their fry.
I have yet to see anything on tv as truly fascinating as watching bettas breed.

[zapisto]

did your cacs have dither ?

[mseguin]

Yeah, they're in a community. Which may have been part of the problem, but the mom wasn't nearly as protective as others I've seen, she would come out for periods of time at feeding time. (The male wasnt involved at all) Actually my current hypothesis is that snails were the culprits as the last time I pulled out the sheel there were already a few snails on the coconut shell.