Frontosa is sick...

[KarEn]

Hello everyone again.

I am not sure what's going on with my fishtank recently. I've kept fish all my life... rarely had issues. Recently (last 1.5-2 years) I lost a number of fish. All died with the same symptoms (worn out scales all over the body and damaged fins). I never had issues with fronts though (they are 10 years old now) except recently (about 5 months ago) lost one and now seems like I'm losing another one (picture attached). He eats well, swims fine, but his body condition does not look healthy at all. Picture was made on my iPhone, so quality is not there.

I do regular water changes, water is always good, fish is happy, eating, filters are clean, enough hiding places...  I don't know what's going on. Is that our tap water perhaps? I use high quality water treatment, all water chemistry is in spec for tangs...  I am puzzled.

11 years ago I had malawis and they were very happy healthy fish. I lost them all in 6 months, one after another. I wander if our tap water is occasionally treated with something so strong that it kills fish. Back then I gave up on the hobby, but returned in 6 months. I am afraid that if all my fish dies, I will have to replace the in-wall fish tank with the "on wall TV"... 

Am I the only one or not? Should I just give up my favorite hobby? 

Regards,
KarEn

[bergenm]

I don't keep cichlid and don't pretend to know much about them, but I do keep some big koi and every now and then they get similar markings.

On my koi it is a result of them swimming through rocks/plants/structures that they used to be able to swim through but now they have grown larger, they can't get through without scratching up their sides and top (their widest points of their body).

I have one big female with similar marking right now because she insists on driving through a papyrus plant in search of food - I will be netting off the plant...

It might be worth trying to rescape the tank and widen their hiding places to account for their growth, that what I do when I notice these markings...

[elk]

I recently aquired some africans from another member which also have some scrapes.He had about 30 cichlids in a 65g with lots of lava rock.

[bitterman]

Frontosa are known for flashing when spooked. They will run into racks and the side of the tank. This could be occurring as you all of a sudden have aggression issues.

I am having some issues with aggression  with my 7 year old burundi frontosa tank, lost one and almost another but I nursed it back to life.

To help with things use both sea salt and Epson salt in your tank.  I use 1 cup per 100 gallons of water for Epson salt and about 1/2 that for salt when I see abrasions. It helps the fish heal faster.

It might also be possible you have some sort of bacterial or viral infection. Any new added to the tank in the past year?

I am suspecting your biggest male is beating the heck out of the other fish resulting in the deaths. This can occur during the middle of the night when your sleeping and you might not see any signs of aggression during the day. Aggression like this often occurs when a female is ready to spawn. If you male to female ratio is bad, then is can magnify issues and males can fight among themselves.

Another possible issues is some females just don't take to a male in time he might get frustrated enough that he will beat the heck out a a female if she will not breed with him.... Often killing her.

The other problem can be rocks. If the fish has a place they can almost get stuck this can occur. Fish can be brain dead and get into places they can't get out of especially when being chased by a more aggressive fish.

Bruce

[KarEn]

I recently aquired some africans from another member which also have some scrapes.He had about 30 cichlids in a 65g with lots of lava rock.

30 cichlids in a 65 Gal tank? That's suicidal. I have 11 cichlids in 120Gal tank and I think they may need bigger home. I have three fronts that are 7-8 inches and other fish are smaller (2-3 inches). Still, 30 cichlids in 65Gal is a disaster recipe.

[KarEn]

Bruce, you are a true cichlid guru. I was expecting a response from you

I will add epson salt today. I am just afraid of sea salt as the tank gets very messy with salt deposits everywhere. If that saves me my front though - I'm ready to do it.

I think you are right about the alpha male beating the heck out of the sick guy. I don't see aggression during the day (very rarely around 9-10 p.m.), but I did notice that the sick guy was recently hiding in one cave for a week. I thought he just liked the place, but now I realize that wasn't the case.

I think I'll be reorganizing things this weekend and add many hiding places (larger caves). I may separate this sick front for a while too.

P.S. I haven't added any fish to the tank since 2002.

Thanks again!
KarEn

Frontosa are known for flashing when spooked. They will run into racks and the side of the tank. This could be occurring as you all of a sudden have aggression issues.

I am having some issues with aggression  with my 7 year old burundi frontosa tank, lost one and almost another but I nursed it back to life.

To help with things use both sea salt and Epson salt in your tank.  I use 1 cup per 100 gallons of water for Epson salt and about 1/2 that for salt when I see abrasions. It helps the fish heal faster.

It might also be possible you have some sort of bacterial or viral infection. Any new added to the tank in the past year?

I am suspecting your biggest male is beating the heck out of the other fish resulting in the deaths. This can occur during the middle of the night when your sleeping and you might not see any signs of aggression during the day. Aggression like this often occurs when a female is ready to spawn. If you male to female ratio is bad, then is can magnify issues and males can fight among themselves.

Another possible issues is some females just don't take to a male in time he might get frustrated enough that he will beat the heck out a a female if she will not breed with him.... Often killing her.

The other problem can be rocks. If the fish has a place they can almost get stuck this can occur. Fish can be brain dead and get into places they can't get out of especially when being chased by a more aggressive fish.

Bruce

[KarEn]

Hello everyone.

Thanks again for all your help. Special thanks to Bruce, who called me on Friday and spent quite some time on the phone, explaining the fish behavior and suggesting what to do with my fish in order to reduce aggression.

I spent the entire day today cleaning up the tank, filters, everything there was in it. I had to do almost 90% water change. I know this is bad, but fronts are survivors and I just wanted to make sure all the bad water was gone. I kept one older filter running to keep the bacteria balance and cleaned the other filter (I run two Emeims on this tank).

Removed all the rocks, caves and was hoping that would reduce some aggression right away as there is nothing to fight for anymore. In about 10 minutes I noticed that the alpha male started picking on the sick frontosa again. That's when I decided to separate him for a while (2-3 weeks) to see if anything changes, or at least give the sick guy enough time to recover.

I've taken some photos of the fish just to show the alpha male (9 inches now) and the sick guy.

Added a cup of epson salt and about 100 grams of sea salt into the tank. I hope that would help with fin and scale healing.

Pictures are in my gallery http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;u=18

P.S. It's a 120Gal tank. 3 frontosas, 6 Julidochromises (not sure what kind) and one pleco.

Any comments are much appreciated.

Thank you all again for help!

I wish everyone a very nice weekend!

[bitterman]

I don't think the beaten up one looks that bad honestly... Its not good, but I think it should make a full recovery.  I would move the egg crate such that the big guy has less room, leave 2/3-3/4 the tank to the other 2 fish.

I woudl be tempted to add back in some caves if you see any aggression between the 2 together but ensure you add at least 4


I think the 90% water change is not a big deal it will ensure good clean water. Not sure how much 100g of see salt is I use about 1/2 cup per 100 gallons.

The one being beaten up might be a sub dominant male? But is could be a female also. Venting is the only way to tell for sure. Ether way with only 3 frontosa  I expect you are going to have problems as I said regardless as they do best in colonies.

If you can confirm that all are males but the one you seen holding, I might be able to give you some more males but you would need to remove the females of the tank (I though long and hard about this I I think this might be your best chance, I know my tank is overstocked so that would drop the numbers for me and give you a change of keeping your fish also). If there are no females often males will coexist without problem as they have nothing to fight over. Keeping the lights out will also decrease stress.

I expect you would want 4-5 frontosa max in your 5 foot tank. I wish you the best of luck I really hope things turn around for you!

Regards,
   Bruce

[KarEn]

I was actually surprised myself to see the beaten one doing a lot better yesterday then the day before. His fins and tail looked a lot worse. This morning he looks even better. It is amazing how quickly they heal.

Re: 50/50 divider. It was a quick fix very late last night. I have already moved it so it is exactly as you said.

What I noticed this morning though is that the "beaten one" had enough guts to chase another frontosa....
I will be adding some caves today to see if it helps.

100gr of salt is about 1/3 of the cap. Today I added another 100gr of salt. Didn't want to stress them all at once. I think there is now enough salt in the tank.

I don't know how to vent fish. Never done that, but I guess Google or youtube are my friends here.

Bruce, I greatly appreciate your kind gesture. I would be very hesitant to take your fish, but if you insist , I will do whatever you suggest to keep my fronts happy. I know for sure that I have one female and you can have her. I may get rid of all other fish as well, just keep a pure frontosa tank, and one pleco.

I saw your gallery and noticed a driftwood. Is it ok to keep it with the fronts? I was under the impression that any wood softens the water.

I have also turned the light off for now.

Thank you for so many valuable suggestions. I obserb them like a sponge.

I would be happy with 5 fronts. I can't make room for a longer tank, so I gotta keep the one I have.

Once the beaten one heals, I would like to PM you regarding your offer (if you don't change your mind by then).

Thank you again for everything.  It is a huge help for me.

Best regards!

[bitterman]

I was actually surprised myself to see the beaten one doing a lot better yesterday then the day before. His fins and tail looked a lot worse. This morning he looks even better. It is amazing how quickly they heal.

Yes it is amazing how fast a fish can heal. A fish that is not even hurt can go totally colourless just from stress and fear.

Re: 50/50 divider. It was a quick fix very late last night. I have already moved it so it is exactly as you said.

Perfect!

I don't know how to vent fish. Never done that, but I guess Google or youtube are my friends here.

Venting fish is not easy.... I'm not an expert at it but am not horible either. I use the 3 bucket method. Definitely Male, Definitely female and I don't know. This is a good reference  http://www.frontosa.com/viewtopic.php?t=1355

Bruce, I greatly appreciate your kind gesture. I would be very hesitant to take your fish, but if you insist , I will do whatever you suggest to keep my fronts happy. I know for sure that I have one female and you can have her. I may get rid of all other fish as well, just keep a pure frontosa tank, and one pleco.

Frontosa are great and there are a few tank mates that will work great with them. The julie's are one that can work well but can be snacks also. When the Julie's breed they can wipe the heck out of frontosa. Calvus and Comps are grea tankmates but can be snack also. You would need adult comps/calvus.  Most plecos are not a good idea in a frontosa tank. Bn's for example can result in a dead front .... if the front decides to eat it on the first bite the bn extends it splines into the frontosa and the BN is wedged in the throat. Both fish dies in this case.

A larger tank Tricoti are nice. But really like a 8' tank best.

Instead on bn's or other plecos I like a nice colony of adult syno multipuctatus. They clean up anything the fish don't get and are pretty cook fish also!

I saw your gallery and noticed a driftwood. Is it ok to keep it with the fronts? I was under the impression that any wood softens the water.

I have very very hard and high Ph water... 8.8-9.2 so the driftwood really does nothing in my tank. If you were on city water it could cause the water soften and the ph to swing more towards 7 were the frontosa will not be as happy. If you ph is about 7.8 no need to buffer or mess with it as frontosa will breed great in that water.

I have also turned the light off for now.

Awesome that will help decrease aggression.

Thank you for so many valuable suggestions. I obserb them like a sponge.

I would be happy with 5 fronts. I can't make room for a longer tank, so I gotta keep the one I have.

Once the beaten one heals, I would like to PM you regarding your offer (if you don't change your mind by then).

Thank you again for everything.  It is a huge help for me.

Best regards!

Pm me when you ready and we will se what we can make work. I need to vent my whole group when the time comes...... I hate to drop my numbers, but I also think its your best chance for your tank to be happy. As with anything I give to people I use a "pay it forward" If thing s happen that you can't keep your fish any more they must be givven to a good home and that person in turn must also pay them forward etc etc

Bruce

[KarEn]

I have just tried to vent all three frontosas, but then finally decided to take pictures and show you, as to me they all look the same (females?).

I was underestimating their size too. The biggest one is 10+ inches, other two are 9+ inches. I remember when they were still around 1 inch when I bought them.

Julies have been there since day one too. Some juveniles have become snacks as you said, some are happy. Julies are fast fish and they seem to fight occasionally among themselves. I've seen them picking on my calvuses, but those guy are long gone now.... :-(

The pleco that is in the tank was also growing with them all. He never touches anyone actually. I have never seen him responding to any "misbehaviour".

The sick one is not as sick anymore. Today is the 3rd day since I started cleaning/separating, etc. He is already much better. I am happy.

I am posting the venting photos in my gallery. There are size restrictions here that prevent me to upload more than two photos (over 2Mb total size).

P.S. Where do people get beautiful fish? Just googled Tricoti - blew me away. They are so beautiful...
I would love to add some colors to my tank, but at the same time I don't want these "colors" to become my frontosas' morning snack..

[bitterman]

LOL venting is an art.

I would say you have 2 males and 1 female.

Sick one being vented: Most likely a Male, its harder to vent with pictures than in person. I am say male as this is more triangular and much small compared the anus (Females vents are much larger than the anus generally). I am also not 100% sure on this one.


Second "healthy" frontosa venting: This one appears to be a female. Look how round the egg tube is and also look sorta like an o-ring, Also look at how much larger the egg tube is than the anus. This is the one that has spawned before?



The boss being vented: My vote is Male!



Bruce

[KarEn]

I wonder what would they say if they knew what's going on here with pictures of their genitals.  

This is what I initially thought: two males (big one and a sick one) and one female (since I saw her holding). Then last night I was a little confused when venting them.

Thank you for confirming everything. I will give it some time now for the sick guy to heal and then we can get back to our discussion and your generous offer.

[bitterman]

LOL...

Tricoti are nut suited to a 5' tank. Also can be very expensive and need adults to go with frontosa otherwise the fronts might eat them.

Bruce

[KarEn]

This is now interesting. How can my post be edited by bitterman? I was asking about Tricotti and that question is gone. I only see your response to it.

[bitterman]

This is now interesting. How can my post be edited by bitterman? I was asking about Tricotti and that question is gone. I only see your response to it.

You have a pm. See the M in my name. I'm a moderator here.

Regards,
    Bruce

[KarEn]

Understood. Thank you.

Just a thought - If I add 3 females, would that help? That way I will have 2 males and 4 females.

[bitterman]

Understood. Thank you.

Just a thought - If I add 3 females, would that help? That way I will have 2 males and 4 females.

1M and 4 Females are your best chance, but hard to find adult Frontosa.

2 Males in a 5 foot often results in at least some dead fish if there are any female around. An all male tank has worked for many, but there are no guarantees as fish are like people we all have different personalities.

Regards,
   Bruce

[KarEn]

Took a short 2 minutes video of my fronts tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtAqNPv-87U

Thank you Bruce 1000 times for all your help once again!!