seachem acid buffer along with seachem alkaline buffers

[nemo14]

Hello everyone !

I would like to reach a  target  P.H reading as well as a target K.H reading in my 150 gallon aquarium. I have a very heavily planted tank but with all slow growing plants. i would like to have a P.H at 7.5 and a K.H at 4. I bought sachem acid buffer along with sachem alkaline buffer. My P.H is at 7.2 and K.H is at 7 to achieve my goal do i mix the two chemicals together  and add them to the tank or mix acid buffer first with water wait 30 minutes then add seachem alkaline buffers.

Any help would be great thanks in advance.

[Mike L]

The ph of 7.2 K.H 7. Is that out of the tap and are the readings after a day or right out of the tap. The difference you are trying to change is so small is there a reason for this requirement.
Mike

[charlie]

The ph of 7.2 K.H 7. Is that out of the tap and are the readings after a day or right out of the tap. The difference you are trying to change is so small is there a reason for this requirement.
Mike

curious as to the reason too.

[nemo14]

When my CO2 system starts my P.H drops to 6.6 and my K.H is at 7 this means that according to my co2 ,P.H,K.H charts its say that i'm running at 56 ppm i'm in the yellow on the chart. so if i'm running K.H at 4 and P.H at 7.5 by the time my light come on the co2 levels are at 16 ppm to 32 ppm for the duration of my lighting cycle.

[nemo14]

No my tap water is P.H 7.0 and K.H is at 2

[exv152]

Unless you have fish that prefer alkaline water, like rainbows, African cichlids, brackish fish etc, I wouldn't mess with the pH. The plants don't care if you have 5.5 or 7.5. Plus 56ppm of co2 is not an issue, it takes more than that to stress your fish or get them gasp for air at the surface.

[nemo14]

I have all African cichlids in my tank this is why i would like to go kinda half way for the fish and the plants.

[mm]

I think you might be misinterpreting the co2, pH, KH chart, if I understood you correctly. Changing your ph and KH will not affect the amount of CO2 you are injecting into the tank. For a given level of CO2 you are injecting, increasing (decreasing) your KH will raise (lower) your pH. For a given level KH, increasing (decresing) your CO2 will lower (increase) your pH.  If what you are trying to do is to reduce the amount of CO2 you need to regulate (reduce) how much you are injecting. If what you are trying to do is to target a specific pH then, given your level of CO2, you can use the chart to determine what the level of KH you need. If you use an acid buffer you are going to break the Co2, pH, KH relationship in your chart since that chart assumes that the only buffering source is carbonates.


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[nemo14]

So if i can run K.H at 4 and P.H at 7.5 by the time my light come on after the co2 been on for a few hours the co2 levels will be on target for 16 ppm to 32 ppm for the duration of my lighting cycle.

[mm]

For African cichlids the important thing is KH and GH, not pH per se. They will be fine with a lower pH if that is solely due to (a reasonable) level of CO2. 56ppm of CO2 seem too high for me. At a KH of 7 if you reduce the CO2 to 20ppm that should give you a pH of around 7.

Here is what i would do:

Your tap water should have a KH and a GH of around 2, if it is like mine. For Malawi cichlids I would target around a KH of 7 and a GH of 4. I use seachem Malawi/victoria buffer to increase the KH and Seachem Equilibrium to increase GH (given that you have plants this is a better option than Seachem Lake salt).

Given a KH level of 7, reduce CO2 injection to around 15-20 ppm. This will give you a pH a bit over 7 ( without CO2 it will be around .  Your fish will be fine with that.

The danger of dropping pH below 7 is that the bacteria responsible for the nitrogen cycle will start to die. Also, ammonia will be mostly in the form of ammonium which is less toxic. However, if you stop CO2 injection your pH will suddenly rise and the ammonium turns back into ammonia and your fish will be in trouble. What is important is to keep the pH stable, not so much its level but to be safe keep the pH above 7 so that the good bacteria stay alive.

I hope I didn't confuse the hell out of you.



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[mm]

PS the smiley with shades  was  the number 8


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[exv152]

I have all African cichlids in my tank this is why i would like to go kinda half way for the fish and the plants.

You'd be better off buffering pH/KH by using limestone or another stone that leaches, and maybe some crushed coral in a bag, in your canister filter. Chemical buffers don't tend to last and they're expensive to sustain long term. But, your beneficial bacteria would not die off until you reach lower pH levels like below 5.

[mm]

A quote from here: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/nitrogen-cycle

"The pH is also a vital factor in nitrification. Maximum rates of nitrification occur at pH values above 7.2, peaking at 8.3 (a common pH for marine tanks) then falling at higher values. What surprised me was the rate at which the effectiveness of nitrification dropped in acidic pH values: to less than 50% optimal efficiency at pH 7.0, to just under 30% at pH 6.5, and to just over 10% of maximal efficiency at pH 6.0. At these low pH values, nitrifying bacteria don't die, they just stop metabolizing and reproducing. Of course in these acidic conditions, most of the toxic NH3 is ionized to non-toxic NH4. But I had been under the impression (and had mentioned here) that the pH needed to drop quite low, below pH 4.8, more like the acidity of a peat bog rather than conditions in a home aquarium, to repress nitrification. Not so."



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[exv152]

The danger of dropping pH below 7 is that the bacteria responsible for the nitrogen cycle will start to die. Also, ammonia will be mostly in the form of ammonium which is less toxic. However, if you stop CO2 injection your pH will suddenly rise and the ammonium turns back into ammonia and your fish will be in trouble. What is important is to keep the pH stable, not so much its level but to be safe keep the pH above 7 so that the good bacteria stay alive.  

"The pH is also a vital factor in nitrification. Maximum rates of nitrification occur at pH values above 7.2, peaking at 8.3 (a common pH for marine tanks) then falling at higher values. What surprised me was the rate at which the effectiveness of nitrification dropped in acidic pH values: to less than 50% optimal efficiency at pH 7.0, to just under 30% at pH 6.5, and to just over 10% of maximal efficiency at pH 6.0. At these low pH values, nitrifying bacteria don't die, they just stop metabolizing and reproducing. Of course in these acidic conditions, most of the toxic NH3 is ionized to non-toxic NH4. But I had been under the impression (and had mentioned here) that the pH needed to drop quite low, below pH 4.8, more like the acidity of a peat bog rather than conditions in a home aquarium, to repress nitrification. Not so."

These two things are contradictory. The author of that link seems clear that the b.bacteria don't die, they just stop nitrifying and reproducing. Lots of us here keep fish in tanks below a pH of 6, and the pH rises above 7 overnight when the co2 goes off, and we don't have major troubles.

[mm]

I stand corrected that they don't die. Nitrifying activity is just inhibited and bacteria stop metabolizing which should lead to an accumulation of total ammonia in the form of ammonium. If the tank is heavily planted ( and probability with a low bioload) then, even in the absence of nitrification, all ammonia could be used up by the plants. this could explain why you don't have major troubles. For example, in some of my blackwater planted tanks (pH of 5 and KH around 0 with no CO2) i have no measurable ammonia even though at that pH nitrification should stop. In other tanks with the same parameters but less plants there is detectable levels of ammonia (non-toxic ammonium). In both tanks the fish are thriving and happily reproducing . The question is wheter in an african cichlid tank you will be able to have enough plants surviving to absorb the large amount of ammonia produced.


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