Solar powered fish tanks?

[FishPassion]

For quite some time I have been wondering what if..............there is another power failure. I have alot of time and money invested in my tanks and certainly dont want to lose to much.I have been tossing the idea of UPS versus, generator and now solar. This idea was brought to me by an electrician that does some of the work on our farm when I inquired about a UPS, his answer was why not look at a power inverter and solar panel which shouldnt cost to much and will give you alot more power for a longer period of time than UPS. I have been thinking of the idea all day and without any research I guess I am asking if any of you, and I know there are alot of members with a lot of tanks out there, have any backup power for your tanks.

What I would like to run is my, mag12, a piston air pump,(yes Jody:) ) to supply several tanks with airstones and basically just the necessities for a start. I know of someone that runs his cottage on solar only and propane, the cost of his solar installation was $2000.00 which is not much when you think of your hydro bill and how much your tanks are using especially saltwater reefs. The ideal situation would be if I can run all my tanks pretty much on solar energy and at least then I would have a better leg to stand on when confronting my wife with "just one more tank".
I realize this is not a concern to all members perhaps only to the ones with multiple tanks, breeders, and reefers.

Any ideas?

[darkdep]

Many.  I have done a lot of research on this myself.  The biggest problem with solar is the currently available panels are highly inefficient; for the amount of money you spend on them you get very little power off of them.  The way to combat this is to pair them up with several deep-cycle batteries and an inverter which will convert the DC power to AC for standard devices.

For tanks, you can comfortably run air pumps, water pumps, and filters off of a backup system.  Don't run lights on them.  The biggest problem is heaters...they will drain your batteries VERY fast.  So for short term power loss, a relatively small investment can work wonders, but for days at a time it becomes very expensive.

At one time I sat down and designed a solar-powered system to get my house off the grid.  Bill came to over $20,000.  Now, yes, I would be off the grid, but if you add up your power bills for the year, you're looking at 15+ years to make your money back.

The first step in designing a backup power system is to figure out what you NEED to run.  Find out the power consumption of all those devices and then size the battery bank / solar array.

[FishPassion]

Yes exactly what do I have to run and what would I like to run and what is the final cost. I have spoken to my insurance broker several times regarding what if and I always get the same answer your equpment is 100% covered livestock NO only under a separate rider on my policy and I didnt even ask how much to insure the livestock. Some  reefers have told me oh yes Im covered at no extra cost to my policy, which I find hard to believe because living things are not "normally covered". All I know is I want to do something sooner than later and avoid the .... I should have done this or that. But I still want to keep costs in mind as well so I guess I will sit down and make a list of, have to have running and would like to have running. The ice storm of 98 is still in the back of my mind 17 days no power here....

[FishBuddy]

DD is absolutely correct in stating the fact that solar panel we have today is highly inefficient...

I also did some math a while back to determine the cost of putting a solar/wind power generation system for our house (while relying on the grid at the same time).  With today's high cost of setting up a solar/wind unit, it is just not worth the price.  Like DD said, it'll take you years to get back what you have invested at the beginning.  And things do break eventually....  In about 10 years from now, while you are still paying off your system, things start to fall apart and need to be replaced; that means more costs!

With a few deep cycle batteries hook up to inverters, we could probably handle the air pumps and filters for quite a long time.  Also, keep in mind that water has a high volumetric heat capacity.  Therefore, it'll take a while for a large tank to lose its heat (assuming your house's temperature is not dropping off too fast).  

[rockgarden]

For the fresh water side I would think that circulation would be all that you would need to maintain for the short term.  Being a day or two without light won't kill most FW plants. Most FW fish can tolerate a 5-10 degree short term drop in temperature without too many losses (IME).

For the SW FOWLR I expect the situation would be the same as for FW i.e maintaining flow would be of primary importance.  Lights of for a couple of days might lead to some bleaching effects but not likely a total reef loss if circulation is maintained. I haven't experimented (and don't intend to) but I expect that SW would be less tolerant tha FW when it comes to a temeprature drop but I'm sure that a drop of 5 degrees or so would be tolerated okay but after that who knows.

I accidently tripped a breaker one time late at night and didn't discover it until late the next day.  THe reef survived but took a while to recover. I was lucky that time in that part of the pump system was on a separate breaker so partial water flow was maintained and that is what likely saved me from total reef shut down.

I don't have back-up power for my reef tanks so if you come up with a good (a.k.a. inexpensive solution) please let me know.


Ron

[FishPassion]

I guess what I really want is to keep my tanks alive I am not to concerned with heat because our old house has elec baseboard$$$ forced air oil, and airtight wood. The airtight fireplace being close to 90% of the tanks. Lack of lighting in a reef for a few days is not the end of the world, lack of oxygen IS and even in FW tanks oxygen is important. So what I am thinking is setting up a piston pump that can provide for multiple tanks through a gang valve and tubing to provide oxygen to my tanks. The 90 reef worries me the most I can see myself sitting there with a garden hose blowing air into my tank. 

[darkdep]

It's a lot harder for a reef.  For my fish wall, I am intending to put in a backup life support system, but it's likely just going to be a deep cycle battery /Inverter powering a good air pump that will run a stone in each tank; that will keep oxygen up and keep some circulation going.  Fry tanks will be using air powered hydro-sponges so they'll actually have filtration too. 

After that's running, it'll be trivial to add my filters to the backup battery, as they're all fairly low-power devices.  I will probably just use the grid to charge the battery unless I find a cheap solar panel somewhere.  Really, something that simple would cost just around $100-$150, and would do fine for moderate outages.

Now, looking at your 17-day outage example, that's a bit harder...especially for a reef.  In my place, we have gas heat, but without power the furnace won't run.  So, if faced with a massive outage, I'd wrap my tanks as much as possible with styrofoam and hope for the best.  For me, heat would be the only thing that would be a long-term problem.  Adding lights to the mix for a reef/plants would be a challenge.  You'd need more backup power.

[bitterman]

Solar power is more expensive then Wind. You can get small wind generatorsfor around 1-2k  now (Canadian tire sells them), but the tower, inverter and batteries etc will still cost a bunch of $$. Alternatively you could do the wind thing and still stay hooked to the grid. Any excess power you give back to hydro 1 and they credit you for $.30 a kWh (They are now trying to promote environmentally friendly power)

This might give you some ideas:

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html

I like the idea. If it works out well let us all know what you did and how much it costs and how much it saves you.

Bruce

[feral]

The simplest answer would seem to be an exersize bike hooked to a dynamo and into a power converter.  The faster you peddle the more of your fish live.  Losing weight would just be a bonus 

[Seanc]

I know some people in Denmark, who got to gether, about 4 of them i think, and bought one of thous huge wind turbines. they all get "free power", and also make money off of it. But in Europe power costs a bunch more then it does here, so it makes it a lot more economical. i don't think you would be making a lot form buying one of thoughts big turbines.

[Julie]

Klaus, there's a home in Metcalfe powered by the wind.
But yes the power failure, we really get left out in the boonies don't we.  I was out 10-11 days during the ice storm.
My parents purchased a big generator and had it wired to the panel, so it's ready to go in an emergency - I have often considered it.  We relied on a generator during the ice storm for a few days, because some people forget it dropped to -24 a couple of nights.

[FishPassion]

I think my first purchase is going to be a generator around 6000 watts or so, at least I can run the furnace blower, water pump for my well, and other necessities in the house and of course the tanks. If I lived a couple of miles down the road close to one of my brother inlaws poultry farms I could hook into his self contained diesel generator, but then would have to put up with the smell of chicken ewwww.

I want to take my time and really look into alternative energy, but as some of the members replies have mentioned solar is just not "there" yet. I have a friend that built a new log home in Lanark and is about a mile and a half from the road, he went solar and wind $$$$$$$$. It takes alot of money to go completely off the grid but I would love to figure out how I can at least run my tanks off of the grid. I am guessing I must spend around $50-75 a month on the tanks in power.
My wife being a bean counter watches expenditures closely and if I can justify my saving to the "allmighty lord and master accountant" then I can sneak in more tanks again.

[jfox]

Go back to your initial concern.  If the power goes out... I want to keep my fish alive.  Consider a battery bank of deep cells, charged by the grid and use an inverter to power your aquariums in case of a blackout/brownout.  This would be the best start to save your fish over a long blackout periods.  OK... now you are safe.

Later you can upgrade to a solar/wind option if you wish.

Don't forget your PST rebate from solar energy or other green energy system.
Solar Rebate: http://www.trd.fin.gov.on.ca/userfiles/HTML/cma_3_25706_1.html
Wind Rebate: http://www.trd.fin.gov.on.ca/userfiles/HTML/cma_3_42274_1.html

Most homes will have smart meters by 2010, therefore green energy providers can feed power to the grid and receive reductions on their power bill. Solar 42 cents/KW-Hr, all others (wind, bio-mass, micro-hydro, etc) 11 cents/KW-Hr.

Good luck!

[babblefish1960]

You know, wind may well be better for you, as you are in a not bad spot, and quality Jacob's windmills have been around for about 70 years(they still build good set-ups). They can be found used, and though the voltage tends to be weird (32v)with the older ones, something could be figured.

Another alternative, for emergencies at least, I have in the past used 100 pound tanks pressurized with a nitrogen mix and a regulator to power sponge filters with great success, and they're quiet.

Another thing some people play with is water turbines, they tend to be seasonal with smaller creeks, but could be fun.

Before I forget, I did know a fellow who hooked a pump to a geothermal bed(not unlike a septic field but vertical) and he somehow used the flow from heat transfer to create electricity, I don't recall how it was wired exactly, but there must be information on the net somewhere.

It is an interesting exercise to excise oneself from the grid, but it's never cheap.

For heat, I once had very large plastic tubes filled with calcium chloride that soaked up sun and wood heat for heat mass storage, it meant I didn't have to get up freezing in the morning when the fire was out, and with the grey water you can also extract heat on its way out. There are a myriad of creative solutions out there that began with the hippies never having money for basics and so some nifty low-tech solutions are out there if you have the space, time and energy.

[Julie]

Geothermal heat pumps are in greely ontario.  The majority of shadow ridge uses them and this was implemented 20 or so years ago.

[murgus]

My in-laws in the Yukon have a 2nd house on a lake that is miles from anything even remotely resembling a grid. 

They have a bank of solar cells, an array of marine deep cycle batteries and in inverter.  I think the solar cells are in the 6-8 Kwatt range.  During the summer it's all they need (well, the fridge, stove and clothes dryer are propane).  For the other times of the year, they have a diesel power 15Kwatt generator that comes on automagically when the batteries get low (there is a very fancy schmancy control panel for this).

You cannot imagine how many times I have thought of implementing this setup, especially when I get my power bill and see all those damn charges.  However, the cost of the setup is huge - although I do not know how much it actually costs as the equipment all came with the house.

Andrew

[darkdep]

Just for fun I thought I'd do some math to keep my fish running.

I have 12 tanks currently; 2 x 75gal, 6 x 40gal, 4 x 10gal.  Power consumptions are:

Filters:
2 x Magnum 350: 35w  (70w total)
6 x AC70: 7w  (42w total)
4w Air Pump powers the 10's (4w total)
116watts for Filtration

Heaters:
2 x 250watt
6 x 150watt
4 x 50watt
1600watts for heating

Lighting:
2 x 64watt T8 Shoplights
6 x 24watt T5HO Bulbs
10gals are unlighted
272watts for lighting


Filters are on all the time:  116w x 1.000 = 116w
Heaters are on say, 25% of the time: 1600w x 0.25 = 400w
Lighting is on 10hrs a day: 272w x 0.4166 = 113w


Let's look at it in terms of watt hours...

Filters use 116w for 24 hours: 2784w per day or 2.7kwh per day.
Heaters use 400w for 24 hours (roughly): 9600w per day or 9.6kwh per day
Lighting uses 272watts for 10 hours: 2720w per day or 2.7kwh per day.
So, my tanks use roughly 15kwh per day, or 450kwh roughly per month. 
At current grid rates of what, $0.055/kwh?  That's $24.75 per month I pay for my tanks electrical, or $297 per year.

Here is an Ontario company that sells various alternative power kits.  They sell one complete Battery Generator kit (Basically a small battery array charged by the grid, and can be used when power fails) for $1499 including batteries and absolutely everything.  That kit lists it's available power as 2640watt/hours.

With that kit, I could power my entire setup, including lights, for about 4 hours and 15 minutes.  Not good enough.

Ok, let's take the lights out of the equation, as I keep africans and lights don't matter at all.  That gets me up to a little over 5 hours.  Hmm.  Still not good enough.

Let's take the most power expensive item out, which is the heaters.  Now we're up to almost a whopping 24 hours.  We're now in talking about something feasible for a short term shortage.

Let's say I add a large hydro-sponge to each AC/Magnum powered tank and run a big air pump (no idea, but let's say 20w for a big air pump).  During failure, we only care about biological filtration, so could run NOTHING but the air pumps...now we're gonna get 4.5 DAYS out of the battery bank.  Not a bad idea for a longer failure.  You add a little extra maintenance but really, maintaining a sponge filter is pretty much no work.  You lose a little bit of tank space in the back corner tho.

Now let's add some way to recharge the batteries.  For about $1000 more, you can add two 50w solar panels; so you are dumping 100w/hr into the batteries during the day.  To oversimplify, lets say that on average you're gonna generate solar power for 10 hours a day (this is a gross oversimplification I admit).  So, each day you get to add 900w/hr back into your bank.  So:

Everything: 4hrs 15minutes might bump up to about 5hrs to 5.5hrs
Lights Off: 5hrs probably turns into 7-8 hrs
Filters Only: 24hrs turns into about 32 hrs
Airpowered filters:  You can run for years

So, for $2550ish, I can air-power-filter my tanks, for essentially forever.  I still can't heat them for more than 7-8 hours.  So, with this setup, assuming I turn all the heaters down to low temps, I might be able to keep the heat at decent levels for say, 2 days tops.  At that point it's gonna drop to room temp, which in my basement is gonna be about 19 degrees on average, 66F, which my Africans will not survive.



There, my friends, is the sad reality of "Alternative Power".  I can go out and spend thousands and just keep my fish alive for a couple days.  Best case. 

[bitterman]

I guess a Gas/Deisel Generator is going on your shopping list then  Combined with the batteries etc, you might have a decent system, only it runs on fuel 

[babblefish1960]

Not to punch too big a hole in your calculating, but you can't average your consumption and have the system work, it must work for what is refered to as "peak" consumption, or you'll drive the amperage up and this causes brownouts and spikes, it's the amperage we all protect our electronics from, amp spikes are nasty, and they are fast, especially when the voltage drops.

If you can't meet your "peak" demand with everything running, you can put your heaters on timers too, and have them shut down prior to the lights coming on, doable, but timers consume electricity too, and electronic or digital timers "leak" or trickle electricity 24/7, it's their nature, which is why we don't use them with electronic ballasts.

Don't forget the pumps draw more power when they are dirty, as the load on them is rated at a stall, therefore, dirty filters actually consume more electricity than clean ones.

Electrical load design is something that you definitely want someone who knows checking over your mathematics before you throw down tons of cash for a system.

I hope I'm not sounding discouraging, I just wanted to throw a sabot into your windmill gears so you don't forget all the angles, including an insidioius one rarely advertised, and that is load leakage loss just from having to push electricity into your system, run an induction meter near any wire you have, and you're losing current to the very air, which is why extension cords have to be a heavier gauge of wire to be longer to do the same job. It's similar to fluid friction in a pipe, it is a huge interdependant number of calculations depending on how large you want to get, and then if you do the grid tie/back set-up, it all requires inspection and approval from Hydro before you install anything.

Have fun with it, math is fun and so is electricity.

[darkdep]

Hell no.  Alternative power sucks all around.  Did you know the batteries themselves, if actually used, are only expected to last 6-9 years on average?

I'm just going to have to sit and hope for the best.  I will assume a 12-hour maximum power outage (the longest I've ever experienced here) and build something to that; which will mean a single deep cycle battery ($90 at costco), a cheap inverter (already have), and an air pump to run a stone in all the tanks.  That'll keep the tanks oxygenated, resident room heat will have to suffice, and hopefully the small amount of circulation from the airstones will move enough water over the rocks to keep some biological action going on.  Dunno how long a bag of biomedia in a filter will last without food, but I'll hope for the best.