BBA woes (from tanksalot)

[BigDaddy]

BigDaddy, my SAE'S are still 'snack size', so they can't go in that tank. I keep looking for full grown ones for sale  

Thanks for the iron tip. I pretty much stopped all ferts months ago (plants are growing as fast as the algae with just light and C02) but I did buy some Kent Iron liquid fert which by the sounds of it I should stop as well.

On some things the BBA is quite attractive (like black velvet on driftwood) but when it covers the slower growing plants it is not nice. I was under the impression that once infested with BBA, there was no going back (is this wrong?).

It seems very selective as to where it likes to grow (almost-but not quite- everywhere), which is what makes me think if you can't beat it, work with it! (still working on that idea!)

I know this is getting way off topic (sorry)...I tried taking out some of the plants and gravel and soaking them in peroxide, after a week the BBA had changed colour but STILL hung on to the plants and gravel tenaciously! Even in death...(lol)

A couple of things I can say about this one...

Stopped all ferts?  Ouch... unless this is an extremely low light tank, that might be part of your problem.  I wouldn't stop all... rather I would monitor nitrate (especially since you are CO2 injected) and phosphate and ensure you are at a 10:1 N to P ratio (that works out to about 5ppm of nitrate to .35 ppm of phosphate assuming no other sources other than what you are adding).  Usually, if you get these going... you can screw up your iron and traces without major algae problems, and use your fast growing plants to determine any nutrient deffeciencies.

If you are really worried about your ferts... then use substrate only ferts, as algae have no roots and can not access the nutrients.

As far as getting rid of the stuff... I am a big proponent of the black out.  I had an ESPECIALLY nasty case of BGA in my office tank.  5 days with corrogated cardboard on all five sides of the tank, with a water change just before and one immediately after.  When I pulled off the cardboard, what was once dwarf sag and a crypt literally smothered in BGA was now clean as a whistle.  The plants themselves had very few repercussions, with only some yellowing of the dwarf sag and a few leaves on my java fern developing some pin holes (amazingly the crypt, which i thought would immediately melt, came out of the process completely fine).

When I had first setup this tank, I had some BBA on my driftwood.  But as the plants got established, the BBA subsided.  So, without any intervention on my part, the algae disappeared.  Remember, if the plants are growing well (and I stress the word well), the algae should not.

[Nelson]

Not suprisingly, I've never heard of BBA so I strolled around the internet for articles to read and came upon this one...

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/brush-algae.html

This stuff is fodder for science fiction movies!!  The author, George MacDonald, went through hell trying to get rid of this blite and ended up pretty much destroying his tank.  It amazes me how one can take every precaution and go to great expense to care for fish and environment and yet in some cases a microscopic spore can totally bring you to your knees!!  Discouraging to say the least.

[Poustic]

Like BigDaddy said .  I also had great success using the blackout method, maintaining ferts, and stimulating plant growth to outcompete the algae.  Both BGA and BBA all gone now.

[Anubias]

There are a couple of methods for ridding a tank of blue-green algae: blackout, EM tablets. Good plant growth or a high oxygen level in the water column seems to keep it at bay. If your plants are growing, you won't have a BGA problem. If you have a Lake Malawi tank, I read somewhere that auratus eats the stuff.

In my experience only 4 cm to full-sized SAEs will control black brush algae. Plant enthusiast Tom Barr claims that high levels of CO2 will eventually cause its decline. It's probably true.

Regards,

[tanksalot]

Great info Thanks!
Now for phosphate....I assume I can buy a test kit for that as well? Thanks for that ratio!!!

We tried a blackout a long time ago (pre BBA)  it worked for the other algae types we had then. Have since tried it on the BBA to no success.

Interesting about the substrate ferts. I have noticed the BBA favours foreground substrate (where there is laterite) so I thought it was the rich substrate. Perhaps its not this at all.

Will try to raise C02 levels, we don't get alot of pearling with two big pop bottles of DIY.

stats on my BBA tank
65 g (very understocked in fish); 110 watts (compact flour)
80 degrees ; 6.5 -6.8 PH
Heavily planted
2x 2 litre  DIY C02 injected into Filstar XP2 (peat, sponge, ceramic rings in filter)
25% water change 1-2 x week with heated rain-water

[BigDaddy]

Interesting... it could be the laterite is leeching into your water column... since that's where the BBA is most concentrated.

If you use a soft toothbrush, you can manually remove BBA... and then as long as the conditions aren't favorable for it, it shouldn't grow back easily.

And yes, there are phosphate test kits.  I recommend the one from Seachem... its affordable but still accurate enough to measure down to .1 ppm

If you have two pop bottles of CO2... then either your CO2 is outgasing or you have some nutrient deffeciency.  You should have plenty of pearling plants if your lighting is good enough.

What's your pH & kH at lights on?  What about at lights out?

[tanksalot]

Hi BigDaddy, I bought the test kits and the phosphates and nitrates are undetectable.

A toothbrush wouldn't work, I use an old health care card to scrape it off the front glass, but off the gravel or driftwood it is impossible to remove. (even after a week in peroxide and then sitting in the sun)

Husband re-charged the C02 and it is pearling better on the swords (and on the BBA!) but it doesn't get down to the hairgrass. It seems to only stay pearly for a day or two and then needs re-charging (must be leaking?)

I'll retest the PH and KH at lights on and out and let you know.

attached is a photo of our yukky tank.
:oops:
the tall narrow leaf red/green plant grows very fast and is immune to the BBA, but everything else gets it. Any hope here?

[Marc]

I managed to remove BBA from larger rocks with a pressure washer.

[BigDaddy]

Hi BigDaddy, I bought the test kits and the phosphates and nitrates are undetectable.

A toothbrush wouldn't work, I use an old health care card to scrape it off the front glass, but off the gravel or driftwood it is impossible to remove. (even after a week in peroxide and then sitting in the sun)

Husband re-charged the C02 and it is pearling better on the swords (and on the BBA!) but it doesn't get down to the hairgrass. It seems to only stay pearly for a day or two and then needs re-charging (must be leaking?)

I'll retest the PH and KH at lights on and out and let you know.

attached is a photo of our yukky tank.
:oops:
the tall narrow leaf red/green plant grows very fast and is immune to the BBA, but everything else gets it. Any hope here?

If nitrates and phosphates are undetectable, that's your problem.  You need to MAINTAIN 5ppm of nitrate and .35ppm of phosphate.

I would start with at least dosing KNO3 and K2PO4 twice a week at those rates, and watch what happens.

I think you are misusing a couple of terms that has me confused... you talk about pearling and the CO2 in the same sentence.

Pearling is when the plants are growing so well that "pearls" of oxygen bubbles appear underneath the leaves of the plants during lights on.

CO2 generators bubble.. not pearl.  If your CO2 generator fails to bubble after a couple of days, either you have a leak somewhere, or your receipe is off and is only producing 2 or 3 days worth of CO2.

[tanksalot]

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of nitrate and phosphate correction!!!  

Please correct me if I've got this wrong, I thought pearling was an indication of photosynthesis, which needs both light and C02 to happen.  I view pearling on the plants as a indicator that there must be enough C02 (and light, although that factor is easier to control and it is a constant over 12 hrs) Doesn't C02 affect pearling? ---do I have this wrong?.

Since the C02 is fed through the filter I can't fully tell whether it is bubbling enough, it comes out through the spray bar in fine bubbles. It seems to sporadically  (after its first re-charged) come out in great gusts, but on the whole I don't really know that it is working (unless  I see pearls on the plants)

I really appreciate all your help in this!!! :-)

[tanksalot]

Marc thanks for the pressure washer tip....big question:
did it grow back ?

I read the link about BBA Nelson included here, and the spores seem capable of living through anything!

[BigDaddy]

With CO2 injection, it is usually a good idea to make a bubble counter, so that you can see how many bubbles per minute your generator is producing.

This can be a simple bottle/jar with two airlines leading into it with one submerged under a fluid the bubbles will pass through.

This way, you can see when your production is tapering off, and when it is time for a new batch.

You would have to be an exceptional plant keeper to have your plants pearl everyday.  So, the plants pearling, while a good indicator, should not be your only way of measuring your water chemistry.

You should definately monitor your nitrates and phosphates closely while you have algae.  As well, make sure you have ample CO2 while the lights are on (this is why you should check just before lights on and just before lights off, to see if the CO2 level drops too much during the day).

[Marc]

Marc thanks for the pressure washer tip....big question:
did it grow back ?

I expect it will grow back.  The spores may or may not be in the large rocks but they are certainly still in other parts of the tank.

[tanksalot]

Thanks BigDaddy, how many bubbles per minute should I see? Would this bubble counter be inline before the filter intake ? Or a separate airline (split from the one going to the tank)  on the side?

I have results from the lights on and lights off test:
lights on:
Kh 30 or 40 mg/L (I'm not sure if its 30 or 40 because I don't know if you're supposed to count the first drop!?)

Ph 6.4

lights off:
Kh 20 (or 30?) mg/L
Ph 6.8

How are these numbers?
Manytanks and tanksalot!! :-)

[BigDaddy]

First off, yes your bubble counter should be inline ... between your generator and reactor.  You shouldn't have a "preset" bubble count, everyone's tank is different.  But you should be able to tell how many bubbles per minute translates into how much CO2 in your water... get my point?  If your peak production is 2 bubbles per second... and 2 weeks later is it down to a bubble every 2 seconds.... you know your batch is running out.

Okay, I will assume for kH you mean 3 or 4 degrees... since you talk about drops.  And yes, the first drop counts.  So I am going to assume your kH is 3 and your pH starts at 6.4 and by lights out goes to 6.8

That means at lights on, you have 35.8 ppm of CO2.  A little high, but unless you have very sensitive fish, not too bad (most people say no more then 25, but lots go for 30 without adverse effects on livestock, myself included).  By nightfall, you are down to 14.3 ppm.  So, while it's not dropping off totally, you certainly aren't maintaining 25ppm of CO2 during lights on.

[tanksalot]

My KH/GH test kit is by nutrafin, it doesn't mention degrees, but yes it is liquid drops into a test-tube until the colour turns from blue to lime green.
My fish aren't gasping or looking distressed at these CO2 levels (that is how I would tell, right?).

You said: "you certainly aren't maintaing 25ppm of CO2 during lights on" ....I don't understand...but maybe I took the tests at the wrong time (frustrating newbies we are!) . My 'lights on' reading was done sometime in the afternoon (lights had been on for a long time) and the 'lights off' reading was done early morning right before turning the lights on for the day. Did I screw this all up?! (lol)

If my numbers are dropping off too much how do I correct this?

I will get manytanks to fix me a bubble counter (thanks!). This all seems like some magical alchemy to me still, but I love it!

I hope one day this BBA is just a minor growth in some obscure corners :-) My fishless tank is the only one in the house with not a speck of algae in it (apart from those bouncing marimo balls)

[artw]

I honestly agree with you it's not alchemy.
we're not building rockets here.
your co2 levels will go down gradually during the day as the plants metabolize the gas.
when I had my plant tank I think my ph might have gone down 0.5 from lights on to lights -off.

your co2 level will be highest just before lights on.
your co2 level will be lowest just after light off.

Consequently

your ph level will be lowest just before lights on
your ph level will be highest just after lights off.

your KH should never change unless you dont do waterchanges and just top off the tank ;)

[tanksalot]

"your ph level will be lowest just before lights on
your ph level will be highest just after lights off.
your KH should never change unless you dont do waterchanges and just top off the tank"

My PH was highest (6.8-7.0) just before lights on
and lowest during lights on (6.4). The opposite of what you said it should be, so now I'm confused . My KH is different at different times as well.
I turn my CO2 off when I turn the lights off which would explain these differences wouldn't it?

I know we're not building rockets but all this chemistry is a huge learning curve!

(note to forum--sorry I've gone off the topic again, hopefully this all relates to slowing the BBA in the long run) :oops:

[BigDaddy]

I think you might want to verify your test kits, just in case.  If you are doing waterchanges and not adding anything to the tank (baking soda, calcium carbonate), your kH should not change between waterchanges.

If you inject CO2, the more CO2 in the tank, the lower the pH goes.  This is because as the CO2 dissolves in the water you end up with carbonic acid.

Thanks for the clarity though... turning off CO2 at night is a BIG help to us helping you out.

If you choose to turn off CO2 (I'm assuming you are just unplugging your CO2 generator)... then yes your values are correct.  The pH is at its "normal" value because most of the CO2 has outgased during the night.

As you inject CO2 during the day, the pH drops accordingly.

Now... here's the deal.

When the lights come on, you don't have enough CO2 in the tank for effective light/nutrient uptake.  It takes your yeast generators some time to build up to the appropriate levels.  All that time... the lights are on but the CO2 isn't optimal.

Here's how you deal with it:  Don't turn off CO2 at night.  Allow the CO2 to run all night.  At lights on, the CO2 levels will be optimal and your plants can kick it into gear right away.  As the day goes on, the CO2 will be drained by the plants faster than the yeast generator can produce it, but you should still have over 15ppm of CO2 before lights out.

Where you have to be careful is that you don't want your CO2 getting to dangerous levels overnight.  If you see your fish sluggish or gasping in the morning.. then you just need to adjust your yeast receipe for slower production.

[artw]

I've never heard of the co2 being that high to cause fish stress.  I think thats an old wives tale.
I've had ph's less than 6 and my fish never exhibited those symptoms or appeared to be stressed.