Rainbowfish - update/very short video

[KLKelly]

Since posting this I see that prazi and salt are okay together - adding prazipro now.

Hi guys.  I'm looking for treatment advice for what I'm thinking is possible gill flukes in my newly acquired P. Signifer rainbow fish.

Symptoms: started with one fish surface breathing and one side of her gill was red.  Now there are sometimes six at a time   surface breathing.  It turns out my filter wasn't optimally performing and actually stopped for possibly 24 hours.  I think this allowed what ever was there to get worse.   No external signs of problems at all and no flicking/flashing.  Colour loss but I assume this is from stress.

I've done a six gallon water change and a 1/2 dose of quickcure yesterday. They all made it through the night.  What I'm not sure is the recommended treatment for these guys.  What would you guys do and what schedule would you follow?

Tank specifics: 9 Signifers all 1" or less. 6 mid sized potted plants. PH 8.0, Ammonia low estimated at .1, NitrAte 0, NitrIte 0, Temp 75, KH 9.  20 Gallon.  I put a new AC filter on it which I filled with cycled media from another tank hoping to prevent this tank from cycling - I don't think they could handle it. Also a 3" bubble wall.

I don't want to lose any of them.  They seem to be hanging on but I'm sure hanging out at the surface can't be good.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Karrie

[SuperT]

I usually add an extra airstone (on as high as the tank can stand) and do a large water change (normally one right away and another the next morning).  As for flukes I use Prazi Pro.  Hope this helps.

Terry

[KLKelly]

Thanks.  Looks like I'm doing my best to kill them all before I can help them.

Did a 50% water change - matched the PH (mixing distilled water and bubbled well water) and the temperature and two are dead within an hour of the water change.  Didn't get a chance to add the prazipro.

i've added five tsp of salt to the 20 gallon hoping it will help keep them stable.

Six of them seem healthy and are eating. one is dead and one is dying.  This sucks 

[PaleoFishGirl]

Oh no Karrie!
I wish I had some advice for you.
Is there anything else in the tank? Is this a new setup?

[SuperT]

I'm sorry to hear that I know how bad it can make you feel.  I've added epsom salt on occasion for bloat with my discus, but i've always found that fresh water/higher o2 levels was usually the best cure (and the prazi hasn't let me down yet on the flukes).  Hopefully someone here will be able to add something to help you.

Terry

[Woody]

If your rainbows have a mucus build up in the gills, or a white filament coming out from under the gills, then they have flukes, if you cannot see this, you can net them and take a look, but I don't recommend this.
With your power filter not optimally working and possible being shut off, there is a good chance that you had an ammonia spike. This spike would cause the fish to rise to the surface and breath air there.
Their gills would become inflammed and if bad you can see it.
Since rainbow fish are a delicate family they do not take kindly to large water changes. This can be disasterous even with healthy fish.
Frequent partial water changes, 10 percent every eight hours is sufficient, and if possible move another mature filter to the aquarium right away to fight the ammonia.
If you have it an ammonia block right away to neutralize the ammonia immediately.
Increase the aeration as they are having difficulty absorbing the oxygen in the water. Decrease the temperature of the water to about 74 degrees to help increase oxygen content.
If the burn is not too bad, they will recover, if the burn is severe, then sadly there is no recovery, some hang on longer than others.

Lets hope for the best

Woody

[KLKelly]

Since adding this post I've found out that prazipro and salt are okay together - adding prazi now.


Thank you so much for replying.  I definitely saw some white under their gills on the ones that were having an extra hard time - and looking like gill filament would be a good description. I'm positive these guys are showing the same thing.  The ones that were worse off have already died.  Seven left and hanging on.  They've lost all their colour but are still eating. 

Can flukes kill these guys?  Can I use prazi pro with the tank which already has 5 tsps of salt in it (20 gallon).  Would I use a full dose?

I now have two bubble walls in there.  Filter is on high.  I don't have any mature media to use without risking my other tank crashing. (I have a 40 gallon goldfish tank and I just added two new fish to it - three goldfish total). 

I'm glad you posted because I had increased the temperature setting a few hours ago thinking it would help.

I monitored ammonia every day and it never spiked.  Ammonia alert card never showed a problem either.  I have high PH which I'm sure didn't help even with a small amount of ammonia. 

They ones that are left are breathing rapidly but are not at the surface like the others were.  Also it seems all the males but one died.  Females have hung on.

[squeeker]

Flukes can kill.

You can certainly add PraziPro to a 20g tank with 5 tsp of salt, but if the fish are looking rough, I'd do a water change to reduce the salt level because the Prazi will be MUCH more effective at killing flukes than salt will.  Remember, Prazi is probably the gentlest medication you can use, and it can even be safely double-dosed.

If they were my fish, I'd do a 50% water change, and then add a full dose of prazi.  48 hours later I'd repeat this (if no ammonia is present... if it is, change water and re-dose meds as necessary).  After another 48 hours I'd repeat this once more.  I'd also keep the lights off and the temperature up around 80 for the duration of the treatment to keep stress levels low and to boost their immune systems.

This process will surely kick your flukes.

Good luck!

[BigDaddy]

If the fish aren't flashing or darting about... I wonder if flukes are the problem.  Usually any parasitic infection will have the fish scraping up against things in an attempt to dislodge the irritant.

It is possible for a fish to have a bacterial infection that inflames the gills.  Given their stress levels, it certainly can't hurt to dose a genetic antibotic like Maracyn II to contain any secondary infections that may occur if the primary cause is not in fact bacterial

Now, not having rainbows, I'm not sure how sensitive they would be to erythromycin... maybe someone else could chime in on that

[KLKelly]

Thanks for the heads up.  No flashing or darting.  I've only observed two minor instances of flashing.  Once when they were put in and one flicked against a pot.  Then right after the last water change one flashed against the airtube. The gills are irritated for sure.  No external symptoms of bacterial/parasitic infection.

Treatment so far:  I added a dose of prazipro yesterday and this morning -assuming it was flukes (with the 5 teaspoons of salt) I'm not sure if they can handle a small water change or additional medication.

The remaining seven made it through the night but they are still very unwell.  What ever I can do to help them make it through would be amazing!  I have Maracyn I, Maracyn II and a bunch of just in case treatments in my emergency kit (jungle parasite, quickcure, malacheite green (sp), salt etc).

What the fish are doing now: I have a 15 w flourescent bulb pointed to the side of the aquarium where some of the potted plants are (plus the two overhead lights).  The fish are hovering about two inches under the surface by the light so I'm wondering if they like the little amount of heat it creates.  Hovering I know is not a good sign - they are active fish.

Stats from this morning:  Temp 74, Ammonia .10-.15 (2 drop test kit), PH 7.9, NitrAtes 0, NitrItes 0.  Added a 1/2 dose of Prime to help detox any ammonia.

So what do you guys think I should do at this point?  Any advice is a life saver for these guys.  Thanks for helping!

Karrie

[KLKelly]

The remaining seven are still alive.  Two are worse off than others.

One is showing signs of red gills like the first one that died.  I'm sure it isn't ammonia burn.

I'm not sure if its bacterial or parasitic.  After two doses of prazi I thought I would see a reduction in their rapid breathing by now.

I'm not sure how to help them. I don't want to harm them by overmedicating but this one now showing red gills concerns me even more.  I'm monitoring the water to make sure it stays good for them and I still have the 2 airstones going.

Should I be trying something else?

Karrie

[SuperT]

Karrie,

I know its tough and I'm sure you're as stressed as your fish.  I'm sure you've been standing there watching them intently (trust me we have all been there...especially at 2 in the morning).

When was the last time the tank was cleaned?  The filter?

If it was me and my tank I would,

Give it a good cleaning especially the gravel (i wouldn't touch the filter though, just make sure it running properly).  Keep changing about 15 - 20% of the water daily.  I usually raise the temp (slowly) which is why i add the extra air stones.  Unfortunately I don't know what is optimal range for your rainbows so I don't know how high you can go (I've read somewhere that they can handle up to 82 degrees.....someone correct me if I'm wrong!!!)

Some other questions I usually ask myself is........

Have I added anything new?

The one I ask my wife is.........hey did you just finish doing your nails and then play in the water?  I read that poisons play a large role in why we lose our fish (especially hand lotions)

Change food?

are the pots you used safe for aquariums?

The soil (if used?) for the plants?

I am reminded that everyone will re-act and do different things to try to correct the problem.  Do what you think is best.

Best of luck

Terry

[KLKelly]

Thanks.  I know what caused it - not being on top of the broken filter in time - probably wasn't enough water movement for these little guys - ammonia never spiked and nitrAtes stayed at zero the whole time : (

I'm glad this site is here for me to ask for help.  I knew these guys were a bit more delicate - I did lots of research and planned on keeping the water perfect.  I messed up not being on top of the filter issue.

I wish I knew if the filter breaking down would be an indicator of what is wrong with them - bacterial or parasite.  I'd have a better idea how to treat them.

I'm wondering if adding salt would ease their breathing stress?  I know with Goldfish it helps protect them from NitrIte poisoning and helps with stress.

Thanks for the support.  I am worried and feel very guilty.

[zapisto]

after reading the whole story, really dont think , it is anything to see with bacteria, parasite or anything like that.

this is a typical chemical attack (amonia/nitrite)
at this PH amania can be very destructive and the dammage are irreversible and for  ever on affeted fish.

your amonia did spike  very fast , enough to give all that.
it is still there and that doesn't help.
my 2 cents.

[squeeker]

I am also thinking along the same lines as Zapisto.

How old are your test kits?  You mentioned your ammonia tester is the two-drop kind, which is notoriously unreliable.   

If your filter went on the fritz, and your bioload was recently increased, it's quite possible that you have/had experienced an ammonia spike, which would be quite significant with a pH as high as yours.

The prazi probably isn't necessary, but it won't hurt either. 

Salt will help with nitrItes and general stress, but it sounds like your fish could be coming down with something as a result of the initial stressor.  If they're eating, you could make up a batch of medicated food (I have a good recipe).  If they aren't eating, you might want to think about medicating them.  However, the use of Metro or Maracyn will most likely cause your cycle to crash again.

If you have a hospital tank, I'd move the affected fish into there, with a filter and a bubble wall, and medicate them and perform large daily water changes until they're on the mend. 

[Julie]

I've always had good results with metro and the bacteria in my filter.
I did not have good results with prazi pro however, it did affect my filters.
The medicated food is the best if they are eating.  Maracyn guaranteed will affect the filter.

[squeeker]

Not to threadjack, but you had Prazi affect your filter, Julie?  I've never heard of that before.  Not that I don't believe you, but is it possible that there were other factors at play as well?  for example, was your tank new, or had you recently added fish? 

I've never used Metro in the water, only in food, so I can't say for sure it will or will not hur the filter bacteria, but it sure could.

[Julie]

I had slightly cloudy water which I believe was due to a bacterial bloom in the tank after using the prazi pro.   I did not add any fish at the time....

[zapisto]

for any internal infection , med in food will always give best result and have less impact on bio filter.

prazipro will affect the filter , maracyn wil DESTROY it , metro will derange it.
of course it is depend on dose and concentration.
if the fish still eat never bother try med a whole tank, use food.

and the best way to treat is moving the affected fish in hospital tank, that way you dont stress your unaffected fish, you filter , in other word your tank.
of course you have exception ot that , but i will repeat myself again , i pretty sure all the symptom you describe is chemical effect.

dont forget somethig really amazing , 90% of the aquarist who have sick fish will kill them with the med they try to use to save them(directly or indirectly), it is fact unfortunely, most of the time diag is wrong.

[KLKelly]

Hi Guys - one of them did flick this afternoon against the ammonia alert card.  They are doing this wall riding/bumping behaviour more often also - here is a link to a very short video.  I don't know what this behaviour means... its not flashing/flicking exactly.

I am very confident this wasn't an ammonia issue.  I am anal about ammonia and checked it daily.  I had a bad experience with my first tank cycling and I know the damage ammonia can do.  I have two ammonia alert cards on the tank also just in case.  At an even hint of ammonia I put Prime in the tank which would detoxify .6ppm of ammonia.  I am sure its something else causing the problems but I'm not sure what.  I don't have enough experience with diseases and rainbow/tetra behaviour to know.

The surface breathing is almost gone during the day.  They were doing it this morning so I took out half the plants and left three 7-8" plants (2 ludwegia and one sunset stricta).

Any ideas why they are swimming like this along the glass?  Does it help determine what may be wrong?  (I don't see any sign of ich at all!)



Thank you

karrie