Surprised with local BA's

[Al]

I am located in Ottawa and remain unimpressed (po'd actually) with the availability of many products that I look for - often at Big Als.  Nothing personal against the BA staff - they are helpful and mostly know their stuff. If it isn't mainstream, high volume they don't have it. Just yesterday I was reminded of this again. I went looking for Clout. Yes, I have one tank where I am dealing with a difficult strain of bloat that one week of metro didn't fix. Hey, I know Ottawa is a cichlid market - and yes, bloat is a fact of life we all have to deal with at one time or another. Metro and Clout are the two standbys. HOW can a specialty fish store like BA, knowing its market is strongly into cichlids, not carry Clout? I can't figure this out - can you?. Both stores say they don't carry it? The on-line store sure has it - no problem and that really reinforces the fact that for me - it is easier to deal with the on-line Big Al's for any of the specialty stuff - big or small, parts or other. Too many times I have driven to BA to be told we don't carry that. I finally did find Clout - at Super Pet - go figure. I almost always have both these meds on hand, but wonder how many other people may have lost fish because of not having options to treat bloat effectively. When metro doesn't show signs of improvement, go to Clout - but it would seem here in Ottawa that if you used metro and it didn't respond, you're on strike 3 because you can't get anything else. The more I read feedback from different forums, just use Clout - just my opinion. Period. But when you have bloat and need Clout - you don't need it from the BA store in one week with their typical response of - "We can bring it in but it will take a week!" A week and your DOA list would be substantial.
Glad I got that off my chest :<)

[Al]

My apologies - this should have been posted in the freshwater discussions. Thanks to one of the mods in advance for moving this post.
Al

[mseguin]

There are dozens of products on the market, and not every store can carry all of them. For example, there are dozens of water conditioners on the market, some of them are different, some aren't. Of the 5 or 6 that I remember BA carrying, only 2 or maybe 3 sold with any regularity. Same goes for a lot of products, its just not worth it for stores to carry lots of intersecting products.

[Al]

I agree with you in regards what a store can carry in stock given the vast array of products. Hey, a store doesn't need to carry three brands of carbon, for example. I`m not trying to pick on BA specifically, but I am disappointed for fishkeepers. But something like a medication for bloat - is a very common issue with many fish and an even more common problem with aggressive cichlids. There are two meds, more or less. Period. Metro and clout. That`s not the same as carrying different brands of the same item. What does BA tell someone when they have tried to treat their fish with metro and it doesn`t work - sorry but you`re out of luck. Wait for the grim reaper - maybe they will make it - There is one more medication but we don`t carry it - but can get it in a week if your fish live that long. BA staff have to know that Clout is an effective (if not more effective) treatment for bloat. And their customers are going to have issues with bloat - no getting around that fact. I`m just surprised that a specialty store like BA wouldn`t have another backup for bloat treatment for its customers. That`s like saying `well we carry penicillin but no other meds`. We carry Maracyn, but not Maracyn 2.  That`s insane. And by the way, my intention wasn`t to cast a dim light on Super Pet when I said they had it - go figure. While SP carries a good selction of fish products, I don`t consider them as unique in their catering to the fish market. BA caters to the fish market, only. Beginners to the most experienced fishkeepers should be able to depend on their local BA if BA is going to be the experts.

[Mettle]

Yeah... We always carried Clout at Super Pet when I worked there and had to use it on fish a few times in store for medicating.

I agree that having a variety of commonly purchased fish meds on hand should be standard for any reputable fish room - whether it be a part of a larger chain like in Super Pet's case or if it's a stand alone specialty store like Big Al's. These meds should be available.

My other question is... If there are fish in the store that are in need of treatment and Clout is the recommended treatment, but the store doesn't carry it, how do they expect to treat the fish? Do they have a private store use stash? Or do they let the fish die in those cases?

[darkdep]

Keep in mind, of course, that both SP and BA are businesses.  It doesn't matter if Clout is the best thing for the job; if it doesn't sell, then it's taking up shelf space that something that WILL sell could take up.  Facts of life.  You can make rants till you're dead about why this store should do this because of moral or common-sense issues but come on, they are not in the business for any reason other than to make money.  That's why there are multiple stores; that's why competition exists.  If BA (or SP) carried everything and was perfect, there would BE no competition.

IMHO, If you want the situation to change, ask to have a chat with the store manager.  State your case in an intelligent, calm way (ranting or complaining isn't going to do anything but turn the manager's brain off).  Tell him what you think.  Have others do the same thing.  If the store thinks the product will sell, they will stock it.

[artw]

At the other end of the spectrum, one should strive to prevent their fishes from developing sicknesses that require medication in the first place.

[Al]

While not looking to beat this thing to death, I appreciate everyone's comments. At the end of the day, the discussion reinforces my own purchasing behaviour of fish related "stuff" all the more. I obviously understand there is competition, profit motives, etc. At the same time, while you can say a business is in it to only make the most money, there are still some principles involved. Hey, this isn't human life or death, but still. I am still confused as to what the average fishkeeper here in Ottawa would turn to, to treat "bloat" when metro fails to treat the given bugs (I guess I really have my answer - ZIP - unless you have the foresight/knowledge to keep some basic meds on hand). Dark Dep, if I had an issue with one of the 75's you have, let's say those really nice spilonotus and couldn't get the needed meds because my specialty fish store didn't make enough money on them, I'd be pissed. It's like you spent $150 on your special ski goggles and the store doesn't carry replacement lenses because they don't make money on them and they don't "turn" enough on the shelves. We're not talking 20 different meds for bloat - just two. Not much simpler than that. I can't believe that Ottawa fishkeepers don't have  problems with bloat. Keep enough fish and tanks over many years and you will meet the bloat monster on several occasions - and that's the experienced keepers. The inexperienced keepers are probably meeting the monster even more - but may not know it.
Art - I agree with you and I would "hands down" rather not use meds or chemicals in my tanks and do everything to keep my tanks as healthy as possible. I am assuming that you and Dark Dep have been keeping fish for a long time (from your posts you seem like very experienced keepers) - and know that bloat "happens". It's part of the hobby - keeping fish in concentrated numbers in small glass boxes makes it inevitable. I would draw a parallel - I would rather not pay $1000/year for car insurance - I drive carefully, don't speed, etc - but whether it is law or not, I would have insurance. Accidents happen! Just like I keep iodine and several other meds in my house that hopefully don't have to get used.
Thank goodness for BA on-line, Jehmco, MOPS, etc.! and the foresight of those of us that keep the basic meds on hand - because raising temps and salt don't always cut it.

[darkdep]

If my Spilonotus tank had bloat, yes I would be freaking out.  However, as a member of this aquatic community what I would do would simply be to ask for help from this club.  I have NO DOUBT in my mind that in the case of a medical emergency without instant access to the correct medication, someone in this club would offer some of theirs to cover me until an online order arrived.  I know this because I've seen members of this club come through for each other on countless occasions.  It's one of the reasons this (and other) aquatic clubs exist.

It would be nice if BA or SP or any other chain carried everything I would ever need...but it's just not the case. 

As for bloat, I can say that in my several years in this hobby I have not had to deal with much in the way of disease or illness.  A case of ich a couple of times, one case of HITH, and one case of Popeye.  Maybe a fungus infection once.  HITH killed my blue ram when I had him, and the others have all responded to the standard treatments.  I've never had to deal with bloat (yet!).

My own personal strategy against bloat is to understand it's (understood) root causes, and try to avoid the wrong food.  Will it protect me foreever?  Probably not.  But again, I am sure my very good friends (or, possibly a complete stranger) at OVAS would help me out in a crunch.

Look at SP.  I don't think they sell anything not made by Hagen.  Why?  There's a financial business reason.  BA also has their company deals, one of which for some reason may be keeping clout out of the stores...

[artw]

I am not exactly sure why we don't carry Clout, it could be because its a nasty, very dangerous medication (well, so is quick cure)  or because we may sell 1 package all year.

I used to feed my new fish in quarantine with medicated pellets (Metronidazole) this would effectively flush out any wild nasties in their system and then get them on good quality food, with clean water I never had a problem.
If for some reason a fish quit eating it was usually too late anyway, especially if they had a bloated stomach I would put them down.   The only truly effective way to treat dropsy or "bloat" especially in large cichlids is to make them EAT FOOD and that involves force feeding them medicated pellets, and even at best the chances of that working is slim.
there was one wild Fryeri I paid over $100 for, I actually did buy Clout and what not when SP carried it years ago, and it actually worked. but he died a few months later, he never really recovered and wasted away eventually.

[Mettle]

Super Pet still carries Clout to the best of my knowledge, Art.

[Al]

Well, I restocked my pharmacy today and hopefully won't get caught again with my pants down. I ordered from one of my on-line suppliers that will go unnamed - 100 tablets of Clout for $25 Canadian !. Yesterday I purchased from Super Pet  - 10 tablets for $7.45 and I purchase SEVERAL boxes - I emptied them out. And it was worth every penny and I'm not complaining! It saved the day - thank you SP for keeping me out of a jam!. And as a matter of interest I asked the on-line supplier if he sold much Clout - and the response was that they sure did sell lots -I didn't specifically ask what lots was but he seemed bewildered why Clout wouldn't be widely available, especially in areas where cichlids were popular.

[artw]

if you are trying to prevent Dropsy or Bloat what you really should stock up on is medicated food with Metro in it.
but you could have saved yourself some money and headache if you just give your fish the proper environment and food   I had hundreds of wild cichlids for 4 years and only 2 developed bloat. 
the "areas were cichlids are popular" has nothing to do with it.

[Al]

Art,
I have also had hundreds of WC cichlids over the past 10 years. Before moving to Ottawa, I lived 20 minutes from Tom Herman and had lots of fish from CRLCA over the years. I know that you know Tom as he had mentioned your name to me when I said I was moving to Ottawa. This is my first big episode with bloat. The tank I am having a problem with is meticulously maintained with excellent water parameters - but's its a large glass box - no matter the fact that it's a 215G. And it houses a mix of 60 WC tropheus, gobies, simochromis and petrochromis. Water changes are done religiously, filtration is a sump with fluidized bed rated for 1000 gallons but only hooked up to this one tank at this moment (thank the lord I didn't have the central system hooked up yet!) - and there are a couple of 2028 eheims as back up - s@#& happens - just like bloat. No matter how great the environment is that we create in our tanks - it's not quite like Lake Tanganyika. And I did use metro medicated feed - just wasn't effective on the bug I seem to have. Hopefully Clout will be.

[PaleoFishGirl]

Good luck treating your fishes - I hope it all works out for the best!
What are you feeding them?

[babblefish1960]

I agree with Art wholeheartedly, prevention is so much less stressful, for you and the fish. Whenever a problem arises, we all can look back over the last weeks before the illness became obvious, and we should almost always see that tank maintenance and husbandry practises were less than they could have been. Parasites and disease become more prevalent when the fish is under stress, this stress weakens the fish's natural immunities and "wham", you have a sick fish. Observing your fish daily, noting changes in behaviour are good steps, so too is ascertaining that the conditions the fish are kept in are as reasonably close to their ideal, this is another way of aiding optimal health.

This can be as simple as not overfeeding, not overstocking, and having places for the fish to escape to when feeling threatened. With cichlids, it is often wise to have dither fish, just to help them relax, it really works. Things like white gravel also affect their behaviour, unless of course they are supposed to be in white substrate.

I'm not suggesting that things don't happen no matter what has been done to forestall disease, I'm merely agreeing with Art, that we can reduce the chance of this by providing the very best that we can for our fish.

Keeping fish in glass boxes is an inexact science with a ton of mythology, and the need for astute observation and logic, and proabably massive amounts of good fortune.

As for the continued complaint about the particular stocking practises of various local fish stores, the things that matter to us the moment we need them, may not be as well-timed with waiting on an order from the lfs, nor is it something we approve of, so please ease up, they're people too. I suggest that keeping things on hand in your own personal medic kit, requires thinking in advance what you may experience. So buy what you believe you'll eventually need before an emergency strikes. And as darkdep said, there are many people here who may well have something handy for an emergency that don't mind waiting a week for replacement of their own stocks.

[Al]

Hi Paleo - I am feeding a mixture of HBH Graze, Omega One Veggie Flake and NLS pellets. I feed through auto feeders and they get fed 3x/day - obviously in smaller quantities but that is what often works best with trophs and petros - grazers, grazing all day long. Some feel it also helps keep the aggression down. These fish like routine - many people more experienced than I am say "bore them to death" feed the same time every day - water changes religiously, etc, etc.
Babblefish - well written and well said. And yes, the personal medic kit is the key. All I need this week is what you referred to as "massive amounts of good fortune".

[artw]

Hey Al, if you want to buy medication in bulk, I suggest buying it online..which I beleive you have, but at a pharmacy for humans or some other US based vet-type thing.  At one point, like yourself, I was going to stock up on Metro in pill form, but decided not to for various reasons.

[Al]

Thanks, Art. What I really need right now is some bulk Valium  to medicate myself and cool my nerves as I wait out this course of medication.

[artw]

I hope your fish get better... sorry I was being a bit of a tool before but you don't know how many times we have seen someone blindly medicate or what not for the wrong reason. Best of luck.

Tom Herman is a good character, him and Glenn kept me laughing every time I was at the depot.