oak leaves

[artw]

I am looking for oak leaves for my future apisto 75.
The reason I parked this here and not in the Classifieds is I'd like to start a discussion about leaves in aquariums.  What kind? Advantages/disadvantages? Ease of use/maintenance? how many, etc etc

[darkdep]

Pretty sure zapisto (Aquanourriplus) has them.

[beowulf]

I am interested in this also.  I have Inca 50 at the moment and I am looking at adding a new dwarf in a new 30g I'll be getting tomorrow and I have read about some of them liking leaf litter,especially for breeding.  How does this work?  How does it change the wanter chemistry?

[mseguin]

leaf litter is basically what gives their native habitat its water qualtities, as they release tannins, which soften the water and lower th pH. They also live amongst the leaf litter, provides shelter from predators.

[kennyman]

I would be interested in this info as well Art. I have a huge Oaktree in my yard and I blow all the leaves into a pile at the base of it with the lawntractor. They get all chopped up nice and stay put without having to rake them that way  

A real planted tank is something I have been considering since I think I have tried pretty much every thing else over the years. But my water is hard and not really suited to a lushly planted tank. Are these leaves a good source of Tanins to add acid buffers to the tank? What type of substrate mixes well with them? How do they change the availability of nutrients to the plant?

[beowulf]

leaf litter is basically what gives their native habitat its water qualtities, as they release tannins, which soften the water and lower th pH. They also live amongst the leaf litter, provides shelter from predators.

Ahh that is what I thought so this confirms it.  So I gather oak leaves are best?  How long do you leave them in before you replace or do you let it break down completly?  I guess certain ornamental woods also do the job?

[babblefish1960]

That is a pretty cool idea, south american dwarf cichlids use leaves for their spawning and territorial disputes, (not coconuts, which are fire  ), I believe that oak leaves release tannins much the same as driftwood, but this only darkens the water. Cleaning the tank becomes somewhat problematic, but less so than coconuts and massive rock work.

I would be very interested to see these employed in your tank, as it is in keeping more with an actual biotope, and the fish should respond quite nicely to it. Make certain you use them dried first rather than green, or they will rot very quickly, and that is bad.

Where are you planning to go with this idea?

[beowulf]

ROAD TRIP!!

I think a road trip is required to South America to get the proper leaves!!! 

[artw]

well I am planning on setting up a 75 with various apistos as discussed,  and I would like to add driftwood, crypts, oak leaves, and put peat socks in the filter.  I would like really dark coffee water, so the light barely penetrates.

[babblefish1960]

Nice, sounds like a serious approach to a closer biotope, as for driftwood, I've seen some really neat setups that had a tree root suspended from the top of the tank to provide better hiding spots in the finer roots pointing downwards to the bottom.

This is sounding like a nifty project, take care where you get your leaves from, they may have come in contact with some form of pesticide or fertilizer, neither of which you want in your tank.

[beowulf]

This is sounding like a nifty project, take care where you get your leaves from, they may have come in contact with some form of pesticide or fertilizer, neither of which you want in your tank.

I was thinking the same thing.  It might be best to head into a natural forest that should be free of these things.

[Laura]

I use a few oak leaves in my 15 gallon, predominantly cherry shrimp tank.  The fine folks at petshrimp.com recommend their use for micro-organisms growing on the leaves to act as shrimp food.  For a shrimp tank, you don't want a lot of tannins, so they suggest floating the leaves until they sink, for high tannin leaves they suggest leaving them longer to leach.  (I realize this would be counter productive for what you want)

You may want to do a search of 'leaves' at petshrimp.com as there is a reference to lots of species being useful as leaf litter, there may be a posting where they discuss types.

I know Zap has sweet almond leaf, but I don't know about oak.

I got my leaves off City Hall property in the fall, which shouldn't have had cosmetic pesticides used.  I can't promise no ferts.  I haven't found any problems though.

The shrimp seem to like them well enough - someone thought I had seasonal decorations in the tank , so they're multi-purpose. ;)They break down in a neat fashion until only the skeletal structure of the leaf remains.

Babble was right though that you only want dried leaves - I used fall leaves.  If you need a handful I can help you out, but don't want to give away my hoard .....

[zapisto]

well,
I use Oak and Almond leaves for a good time now.
Art, if you want a nice black coffee water in a 75 you will need a nice leaf litter.

First of all, some tips on leaves

- Never get green leaves and pout them to dry
- take leaves who dry by themlselves
- dont use them if your tree is on treat ground and the leaf fall on it.
- i wash them well , but i dont boil them for my apisto and dwarf tank, for my shrimp tank i boil them 2 min to accelerate the decoposition, because for shrimp like laura said , i use them to get as much mulm i can.

Personnally i use leaves in multiple way.

1 - Litter , for some of my Apisto, shrimp, candidi, and other dwarf
     i soak the leaves in a bucket until they sink and i just put them in a tank
    usually they take 48 to 72 hours to sink
    i use bare bottom tank for leaf litter , or with small amount of gravel

2 - i make my own concentrate tannin mixture
    i boil the leave and pass and remove the leave after, i let the water cool itself 
    and i add a AC (completly empty) or power head , let this run for a fews day for
    evaporation, when the water is concentated enough i put that in bottle in the   
    fridge and i use when need.
 
3 - in my shrimp tank  i dont put too as much leaves i put in my dwarf


downside of leaf litter :
- you have to add leaves time to time as they start decompose
- clean the tank is harder
- dont expect any significant change of PH if you KH is high

almond leave have some antifugic property and i use them as prevention most of the time, and not for medication (if you think you can treat a tank with that , you are dreaming).
almond leaves will release more tannin than oak.

hope i answer most of you questions dont hesitate if you have any more, i work with leave for while now.

not all the leaves is good for tank, some of my friend use Magnolia leaves with good result with shrimp.
thanks

[artw]

Where can I get almond leaves?

[babblefish1960]

I think Laura just mentioned zapisto carries them.

[oenology]

With the unseasonally warm weather this weekend we finally got around to raking our front yard (the neighbours have been giving us dirty looks... not really but they should have been ) So we have 14 bags of leaves, most of it Oak. Garbage pick-up is Thursday...

[BigDaddy]

I was planning on doing a bare tank with nothing but oak leaf litter.  I'd bet in a planted tank, it would be a major pain maintenance wise

[artw]

I rarely maintain my 90 anyway. I just sort of prune it once in a while.  I've never gravel vacc'ed

[Sarah Bella]

I like the almond leaf extract+ (Atison's betta spa by ocean nutrition) that i get from IBC.  The first time my a. panduros had a successful spawn was after i added it to the tank. 
advantages to this product as opposed to the actual leaf litter is, well, the litter.   It also has other things in it too.   

here's the product description

The Wild Almond leaf extract will create a more natural
environment for the Betta fish. The leaves contain humic acids
and tannin and are known to have antibacterial properties. Contains Yucca extract that will bind the ammonia (NH3)
in the water. Contains calcium needed to activate the muscles and to develop strong bones, teeth and scales. Lowers the pH of the water and absorbs harmful chemicals. Adds essential trace elements to the water. Ideal for conditioning the Betta, promotes spawning, activity and colors. Colors the water via natural tannins, lignins and fulvic acids. Will make the bubble nest stickier. Produced with natural ingredients. Recommended for fishes that prefer tannin stained black-water streams, the natural habitat of the Betta. Recommended for all fresh water fishes kept in small containers without filters, specially during transportation.    

[zapisto]

I like the almond leaf extract+ (Atison's betta spa by ocean nutrition) that i get from IBC.  The first time my a. panduros had a successful spawn was after i added it to the tank. 
advantages to this product as opposed to the actual leaf litter is, well, the litter.   It also has other things in it too.   

here's the product description

hi sarah
i make my own
i just give a resume of my receipt
i add of course more stuff in it