Pressurized CO2 - is it economical?

[Zoe]

I have a 90 gallon tank with plants that may or may not be doing very well   I've begun looking into possibly consdering researching pressurized CO2. I've been told it will cost upwards of 2-300$ to set it up, but I've read online that it is not imposssible to do it for 100$ if you go to the right places and do some of it yourself.

Any words or wisdom to share with this CO2 newbie?

[babblefish1960]

Wow, a million dollar question wanting the simple answer. I shall begin by saying that there are a few ways to accomplish this, however, there are some questions you have to answer first.

What are the plants you have, and how are they not doing well? (what are they doing that has you believing they are doing poorly?)
What are the dimensions of the tank, depth of water being the most important?
What is the pH of the water? And for that matter, the kH and the gH.
What is the temperature of the water? (plants, like fish, have optimum areas of temperature they prefer or thrive in.)
What is your favourite colour?
What are you using for lighting? (type of bulb, size of bulb, wattage of bulb, number of bulbs, lumens of bulb, wavelength of bulb, colour temperature of bulb, speed of bulb)
What is the speed of an European swallow in flight?
What, if any, supplements do you provide for the plants? (this includes both micro and macro nutrients and of course any jelly sandwiches)
What is the subject matter when you talk to your plants?

These and a myriad of other questions should help us offer advice with a basis in fact, rather than mere generalizations.

That being said, if you have your heart set on CO2, there are some things to consider. In lowlight situations it is not a good idea. This is probably not the case, we would then skip over to the "how much are you willing to spend" column, followed by the "how much work for it are you willing to do" file.

I say this, because you can spend an awful lot, especially in a 90 gallon, and this would include all the typical top of the rung things from Japan, all the way down to kitbashing everything you need from the DIY school of thought, including making your own CO2.

There are quite a number of people here on the site that have wonderful planted tanks with their own everything, including spare homemade CO2 in the refrigerator.

The first most important thing about planted tanks though, is there needs to be a balance between photosynthetic period and intensity with the CO2 levels in the tank, be they artificial or natural sources.

So before I bore you to tears, what is it you have for lighting, and what kind of plants are you trying to keep? These last two are the questions most important to determining what sort of CO2 you may require.

[beowulf]

From what I saw, your plants seem to be doing very well. Which ones are you thinking of that are not doing well?

[Zoe]

Wow, that's a lot of questions! Let's see...


What are the plants you have, and how are they not doing well? (what are they doing that has you believing they are doing poorly?) valls - have BBA and some of them are disintigration; amazon sword - turning brown and falling apart... and that's about all I have other than some floating plants which are growing TOO fast and some java fern which is alive but not growing anywhere quickly... I'd like to have other types of plants... lots of types!
What are the dimensions of the tank, depth of water being the most important? 4L x 2H x 1.5D
What is the pH of the water? And for that matter, the kH and the gH. pH is 8, gH is 3, kH is 1
What is the temperature of the water? (plants, like fish, have optimum areas of temperature they prefer or thrive in.) 80F
What is your favourite colour? Red
What are you using for lighting? (type of bulb, size of bulb, wattage of bulb, number of bulbs, lumens of bulb, wavelength of bulb, colour temperature of bulb, speed of bulb) 4x 65W compact fluorescent in a coralife freshwater fixture... so 260 watts total)
What is the speed of an European swallow in flight? 24 miles per hour
What, if any, supplements do you provide for the plants? (this includes both micro and macro nutrients and of course any jelly sandwiches) I've stuck some in-gravel fertilizing tabs, but nothing else
What is the subject matter when you talk to your plants? i ask them why they aren't growing... maybe I'm making it worse by lowering their confidence??

Anyway, I don't WANT to go spend 300$ on CO2, but my plants look not as nice as I'd like. If I can do somthing with my water that will help, please do share!

[busdriver]

I have vals and I have two types of swords in a 75 gal. and they are thriving and all I did was buy an under gravel heater and fert them once or twice a week.
If you want to see them check my gallery.

[jetstream]

   Pressurized CO2 will save you money in the long run, for your 90 gal tank, you need at least 3-4 2 litres DIY in series in order to get a consistence supply of CO2. Assuming you just replace 1 bottle/week. So, that's at least 4 lbs of sugar per month. + the time to make them.
   The initial setup cost of pressurized CO2 is more or less around $300. Approx $150 for the regulator if order from the state, $100 for the tank (local), and the cost of a reactor. A 10 lb tank (cost approx $20 dollars to refill) will good for 9-12 months. Every 5 years you need to revalve or pressure check the tank will cost you around $35. I let you compare the cost for both methods! 

What are the plants you have, and how are they not doing well? (what are they doing that has you believing they are doing poorly?) valls - have BBA and some of them are disintigration; amazon sword - turning brown and falling apart... and that's about all I have other than some floating plants which are growing TOO fast and some java fern which is alive but not growing anywhere quickly... I'd like to have other types of plants... lots of types! CO2 sure will give you more leeway for errors or gives you better chance to conquer the more challenge plants

What is the pH of the water? And for that matter, the kH and the gH. pH is 8, gH is 3, kH is 1 Lots of the plants prefer water in acidic side, a constant supply of CO2 sure will give you a helping hand

What is the temperature of the water? (plants, like fish, have optimum areas of temperature they prefer or thrive in.) 80FYour target temperature is a bit high for lots of the plants 

What is your favourite colour? Red Red colour is not just CO2 alone, it's a combination of few things together!

What are you using for lighting? (type of bulb, size of bulb, wattage of bulb, number of bulbs, lumens of bulb, wavelength of bulb, colour temperature of bulb, speed of bulb) 4x 65W compact fluorescent in a coralife freshwater fixture... so 260 watts total) The amount of lighting you have, sure you need a supply of CO2 to help you push the plants. It should be able to provide you with lots of enjoyments

What, if any, supplements do you provide for the plants? (this includes both micro and macro nutrients and of course any jelly sandwiches) I've stuck some in-gravel fertilizing tabs, but nothing elseYou should be able to see good response from your sword plant after you put in the tabs in a week. Depends on what other kind of plants you have, you also need to dose some N, P, K for them. BTW, how deep is your substrate?

Hope I didn't confuse you more! 

Jetstream

[manytanks]

Hi...

Ya know, reading the description of your plants (vals & swords, disintegration, brown & falling apart, etc.) leads me to suggest you read through the very knowledgeable reponses to my post from a few days ago ["Planted tank blues (and greens, and browns, and...)]" to see if there isn't somethere there that can help in addition to adding pressurized CO2.

Just a thought...
//MT

[Aquaviewer]

Babble and Jetstream have hit on many of the key points and questions. I would say that your plants are not just lacking carbon, but most other nutrients as well.  You have enough light running in your tank that the plants likely exhaust any available nutrients in short order.  If you want to have lots of plants you will need to decide on a fertilization regime.  Also what is the substrate?  Plain gravel and lots of plants don't mix well.

I run my planted discus tank at 84F, while this temp limits the types of plants that I can have, those that are in there a doing well, predominantly swords and I did have vals briefly before moving them to another tank. I run my other planted tanks at ~75F.

According to the sources I checked, if your pH is 8 and your kH is 1 you only have about 0.3 ppm of CO2, which is very low - you want to be up around 10 to 25ppm. 
Some background on the CO2/pH/KH relationship is described here:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

A pressurized CO2 system is expensive and you will also need to decide if you are going to run pH controller on that as well which adds $$ (the pros and cons of the latter will likely spur some debate) - and Jetsteam hit many of the pros and cons of the two types of CO2 options.  I would venture to say that if you are planning on getting into plants like you suggest you will likely end up will some sort of CO2 system and on a 90, pressurized will likely be the way to go.

If you are looking at CO2 regulators make sure that it comes with a bubble counter and ideally a check valve between the solenoid (the thing that turns the gas flow on and off) and the bubble counter.  Cheaper regulators are typically cheep not only because of inferior parts, but they lack these items and you end up having to get the bubble counter in particular, after the fact.  The bubble counter is what you use to set your gas flow rate.

DIY systems will get CO2 into the tank so it would be a place to start.  There are many resources on the web that describe how to build DIY systems.

In the sort term however i would start by getting you other nutrient levels up and you will likely see your plants start to come around.

[charlie]

Hi to add to all the above advice already given , i will say that CO 2 & ferts. ( NPK & micros). has made all the difference for me .I have done the sugar & yeast thing for my former 55 gln & 75 gln & can tell you it`s a pain trying to keep up with the mixing & replacing bottles in time , at least for me, I know others ( Artw & PFG for example ) has done it with success.When i switched to pressurised CO 2 , i asked myself , why i took so long, it`s comparable to doing water changes with a bucket vs the python system.
The cost of pressurised  system can be lowered by doing the in DIY  reactor ( several versions on the web ) one of the cheapest is made with PVC pie & fittings, can be made for a few dollars ( only good if you are running  a canister filter) , also purchasing used regulators( i`ve picked up one from aquaria canada in the past ). hope this helps & i`m sure others will elaborate more.
Regards

[zapisto]

have  a look here : http://www.maxservicenet.com/extincteurs-abp.com/ensemble.html

[charlie]

Good price.

[blizzack1]

have  a look here : http://www.maxservicenet.com/extincteurs-abp.com/ensemble.html

Sorry to bump this, but did anyone try this setup?  The website still works, and it seems like a steal for $275... I was about to order a sumo setup and it will cost more than this after taxes and shipping, and doesn't include a cylinder...

[dan2x38]

I bought a Milwaukee regulator/bubble counter/solenoid shipped here in a group order from MOPS.ca for $139. Then bought a used bottle for $50 filled for $23. You can buy a filled 10 lb. c ertified bottle from Davidson's on Percy St. (near me) for $115.

[blizzack1]

I bought a Milwaukee regulator/bubble counter/solenoid shipped here in a group order from MOPS.ca for $139. Then bought a used bottle for $50 filled for $23. You can buy a filled 10 lb. c ertified bottle from Davidson's on Percy St. (near me) for $115.

Yeah, I'm having a real hard time parting with the $232 american for the sumo setup (with no cylinder)... but I've read/heard more than a few comments from people wishing they'd gone with a better CO2 setup from Sumo/Rex Griggs/etc...

[charlie]

Yeah, I'm having a real hard time parting with the $232 american for the sumo setup (with no cylinder)... but I've read/heard more than a few comments from people wishing they'd gone with a better CO2 setup from Sumo/Rex Griggs/etc...

The old addage rings through here , you get what you pay for, i can tell you from personal experience, having gone through 3 Milwaukee, & 1 other economical brand name, they get the job done, but reliability after some use becomes a major issue, that said the customer service from Milwaukee is second to none, i now have a sumo & 1 Rex upgraded with a swagelok needle valve from Sumo, i`m very happy and feel i was justified in spending the extra dollars, wished i had done that before the 3 Milwaukee & 1 other economical brand name.

[charlie]

I should add, if you want to save some dollars, 10 lb bottles with gas, can be had for approx75-80 dollars, not as shiny & nice looking but holds the gas & is effective, DIY co2 reactors will save you lots of dollars , again not show pieces but cheap & just as effective if not better than some store bought ones, the saving from those 2 can be applied to your regulator, which in my opinion is the best place to spend the dollars.

[fischkopp]

Yeah, I'm having a real hard time parting with the $232 american for the sumo setup (with no cylinder)... but I've read/heard more than a few comments from people wishing they'd gone with a better CO2 setup from Sumo/Rex Griggs/etc...

It sounds expensive (well, it is) but in the long run it will save you a lot of hassle and eventual upgrades. I use the sumo with ideal valves and must say that this is the most reliable setup: set and forget. I also use RexGrigg & Fabco (is ok) and had a Milwaukee rig (finicky) before and can second charlies comment: you get what you pay for.

[dan2x38]

FYI at the Giant Auction a Milwaukee sold for $45 Zima got it...  I was to cheap and put  my hand down at $40... 

[blizzack1]

It sounds expensive (well, it is) but in the long run it will save you a lot of hassle and eventual upgrades. I use the sumo with ideal valves and must say that this is the most reliable setup: set and forget. I also use RexGrigg & Fabco (is ok) and had a Milwaukee rig (finicky) before and can second charlies comment: you get what you pay for.

Charlie,Fischkopp, thank you for your posts.

I have been having a really hard time deciding, but just clicked send on the paypal order... now, to decide how to diffuse it into the tank, and pick up a cylinder...

[dan2x38]

You can get a bottle & filled at: http://www.pyromateck.ca/ or http://www.davidsonfireextinguishers.ca/