Ph crash

[Nerine]

for some odd reason my 55 is having a difficult time maintaining the ph.

it's crashed from 7.2 to 6.0 in just about a week.

water changes have been done, there's only 4 zamora woodcats, 2 neons and a baby guppy in the tank! no idea what's up with it. no drift wood but do have live plants.

any suggestions? I've run out of ideas why it's having such a hard time maintaining the ph.

[fishycanuck]

Nerine - I think you are a more experienced fish keeper than I am, but for the sake of completeness - what are the other parameters, including temperature and age of setup?

[Nerine]

nitrate 20
nitrite 0
amnonia 0
ph 6.0
hardness very low lol I don't have the box anymore, but the stick is yellow and it should be brownish

I'm wondering if it's old tank syndrome??? would that happen?? it's been running for only a year (since moving) and ever since we've moved to this place it's had problems. the 75 has been kicking along fantastically since we've moved (higher ph out of the tap here too)

I have no clue as to why it keeps crashing...I do the water changes, it's up, and then boom down. and it's not overstocked by any means haha when you look at the tank everyone says "where are the fish?" its like playing where's waldo

there used to be driftwood in there when we first moved in but it was breaking down too fast and I took it out. Live plants are in there...lots of water movement, airation etc.

Any thoughts? trying to think if it's something I missed? it gets regular water changes (weekly)

[babblefish1960]

Just a quick question, what is the pH of the water you use to do water changes with? I know that the water we've been getting went from above a pH of 9 to hovering around 6.5 to 7.0. This has affected the pH of the tanks dramatically.

The only other question, is about your substrate, what is it, and how deep is it?

Sometimes you can get pockets of gas from detritus and other dead things that decay in the gravel and they become anaerobic and then surprise you. I often poke around with a chopstick to see how much there might be.
Okay, that was more than one question, but food for thought if you don't mind checking.

[Nerine]

the ph in my tap is still highish...8.0 (used to be 9)

I am constantly poking around in the tank....it's driving me INSANE!! the gravel is pea sized and it's about 3-4 inches thick (heavily planted tank too)

I am taking all the gravel out and putting the fish in a rubber maid bucket pretty soon actually I am taking all the gravel out and replacing it with sand and quartz.

what if I threw a chunk of dead brain coral? lol

[Nerine]

I just thought of something on my way home from work...
I have been TRYING to get low ph for water for my lemon tree haha I was wondering why it was suddenly doing so well!!! it likes a ph at about 6.0. and since my tap water has been so high it has not been doing well and when I started watering it from the 55gal it started to do much better darn tank!

anyways still no clue as to why it keeps crashing.

but off to do another water change on it. Going to try and change the water every 2 days and see what happens (I am going to run out of buckets!) my liles are already 5+ feet tall from tank water...they weren't supposed to grow indoors but I can't stop them! which brings up another topic...how many of recycle tank water...

[kennyman]

without sufficient calcium and magnesium hardness PH will be all over the place.

[Rudy00]

i second kennyman, check your alkalinity!

[Nerine]

haha glad ya were able to get the planted tank into the house
you should take some pictures!

Alkalinity is low but always has been.

I actually don't have strips left...I have a nice kit finally of drops! whew!

yeah I'm going to stop meddling LOL see what happens 
I have bioblend pellets and wardly algae wafers (they get fed every 4 days or so, loads of live plants for them to eat)

[babblefish1960]

i second kennyman, check your alkalinity!

I don't follow you, her pH is 6.0, anything under 7.0 is acid, and the previous 7.2 was barely alkaline before, did you mean something else?


Sometimes, for myriad mysterious reasons, something is done in a tank that is unknown and has some effect on the water parameters endlessly. I know I have one of these right now, and it has taken months to sort out the issues.

I suspect for myself, and this may be true for you also, that there were several issues from different problems that together were a nightmare, however, by resolving each suspect one at a time, you keep it scientific, and eventually, once it has become narrowed down in scope significantly, you can begin to see the problems go away and the tank be resolved.

Why I mention that it is a mystery to be solved, is that I have 7 tanks set up in exactly the same way and one tank that behaves very differently than the other 6. It was by moving things around to other tanks beyond the principle 7 that twigged me onto which things were suspicious by producing poor conditions wherever they went, driftwood, certain rocks and so on.

Good luck, keep looking, and don't give up, you never know what you may learn.

[Rudy00]

I don't follow you, her pH is 6.0, anything under 7.0 is acid, and the previous 7.2 was barely alkaline before, did you mean something else?


Sometimes, for myriad mysterious reasons, something is done in a tank that is unknown and has some effect on the water parameters endlessly. I know I have one of these right now, and it has taken months to sort out the issues.

I suspect for myself, and this may be true for you also, that there were several issues from different problems that together were a nightmare, however, by resolving each suspect one at a time, you keep it scientific, and eventually, once it has become narrowed down in scope significantly, you can begin to see the problems go away and the tank be resolved.

Why I mention that it is a mystery to be solved, is that I have 7 tanks set up in exactly the same way and one tank that behaves very differently than the other 6. It was by moving things around to other tanks beyond the principle 7 that twigged me onto which things were suspicious by producing poor conditions wherever they went, driftwood, certain rocks and so on.

Good luck, keep looking, and don't give up, you never know what you may learn.

carbonate hardness or alkalinity

i guess nerine already attempted to measure this, i think measuring this and figuring waht this is will give some clue as to what the problem is with the swings, this along with other parameteres as kennyman suggested with calcium and Mg -- i'm speaking from a SW ionic balanced system  in FW i know most dont consider Mg and Ca ( i think they may have a very small contribution to alkalinity/carbonate hardness and ultimately pH balance -- i'd suggest finding a natural buffer that will keep you pH in the higher zones that your aiming for -- aragonite? 

ottawas continual water swings may be contributing to your odd problems with pH as many mentioned !

[Rudy00]

Oh also, i dont know how much in ottawas water this is an issue, CO2 release from the water will cause pH swings, so maybe try running an air stone in your water change water prior to the water change and observing the pH as liberating the CO2 will casue pH changes ( i know from being on a well from a place just outside sudbury, north bay, i had issues were my pH would drop after being out of the tap -- after CO2 was liberated from teh water i added )

i dont think adding anything, such as drift wood, or otherwise woudl casue such a dramatic effect in the water, drift wood would drop the pH but not in such a dramatic value,  unless of course you had alot of it to do so ...

hopefully this leads you in some direction!
-randy

[charlie]

I`m going to throw a twist into this mystery, i`m sure the more experienced hobbyist will add their take on it.
In one of your post you said the tank is heavily planted & the KH is low, are you adding /injecting any CO 2 to this tank,? is the plants growing well?
It is known that when plants are thriving & they don't have a good supply of carbon , they can strip the Kh out of the water column to supplement their carbon requirement, maybe this might be your culprit.
Regards

[kennyman]

Babble; My thinking on alkalinity is that PH is an indirect measurement of the balance of acids and carbonates but does not provide an amount for either. We need to know how much alkalinity (Ca/Mg) we have to buffer the PH against fluctuations from varying amounts of acids produced or added to the tank. But It seems all is well as Nerine now has a hardness test kit and will know what is up once she uses it.

The generalized view of PH that I have is that it measures the number of free hydroxyl OH- in relation to free H+. This ratio is an indication of how the water is reacting to the various states of carbon, calcium mg etc , but PH is not a measurement of any of the aspects that control it.

[oenology]

Measure you kH - this is what gives an indication of the buffering capacity of your tank. I can't remember off hand what the lowest amount can be and still provide sufficient buffering capacity but you should be able to find that out. (or I'll take a look and post it later) Anyway, to "naturally" buffer your tank you add baking soda. When I was keeping goldfish I had a pH crash and this is what I found out. Add a tsp or so and then measure you kH. Keep doing this until you have added enough to raise the kH to whatever it should be. BD I'm sure remembers the what it is - apisto guys are always treading the fine line between buffering capacity and keeping a low pH.

[babblefish1960]

I love it, real science, Bill Nye the science guy would be proud. After your collective explanations kennyman and rudy00, I see where you are going with this. Very good points all of them, and of course, a good direction to be heading regarding the resolution of the factors surrounding the pH shifting.

Yes Charlie that is true, these are all things to investigate further. Oenology, you are so smart, can't wait to see what is next. Nerine, there is some solving afoot, have you gotten some test kits for general hardness and carbonate hardness? Heck even calcium and iron tests would be interesting too.

Everyone loves a good mystery, it would be good to see how this one plays out.

[Woody]

It sounds like a combination of low KH and mixture of plants. When the aquarium has a low level of carbonate buffering in it, the bicarbonate ions combine with the excess hydrogen ions in the water to form carbonic acid (H2CO3) which then over time breaks down into CO2 and water. This is the slow pH change that most people see in their aquariums when they don't add buffers.  
Over time, as the carbonate ions are used up, and the KH drops, you will notice larger pH changes.  This is why aquariums with low KH are unstable as acid is produced by natural biological action. Essentially the KH is used up and when it is gone, the pH will drop rapidly as H+ ions are generated.
Couple this with a lot of plants, no matter how good the plants are thriving there is always decaying material in the aquarium, the carbonic acid is produced in large quantities.
You can either add some buffers to your water as Jen has suggested, or since I run a few tanks on almost pure R/O water do larger water changes more often. 50%  once maybe twice a week.  I don't know if this would have a negative effect on the plants, more informed members will be able to explain that.

Woody

[charlie]

Here is a good thread that might give some more explainations.
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200002/msg00410.html

[Nerine]

nice!
thanks for all the replies

I don't have an iron or calcium test...
but that is in the near future hopefully. I have hard water, always have always will and there are always deposits around the tank (ugh)

I'm fairly new to keep aquatic plants (other than the pond) and it's quite interesting. lots to think about!

off to detect btw only general hardness no carbonate hardness kit...so I still have a few more to obtain!

[babblefish1960]

I know it is only money, but Superpet in Kanata has a few Hagen test kits of the master in a briefcase variety, regular $80, it is something like 40% off for a couple of them, and it has everything you'll need to monitor all your latest concerns.

I liked that thread you posted Charlie, there have been a lot of good explanations here, you too Woody, great words of advice.