OVAS Forum Decision: Reptile Related Content

[darkdep]

All,

If you feel strongly about reptile/amphibian talk on this forum, listen up 

There have been several posts from reptile enthusiasts that the OVAS Executive have received complaints about, due to graphic content (usually related to feeding).  Currently the existing forum rules do not have anything in them related to reptile content and as such, anything goes in the Lounge.  However, there are people on both sides who have requested reptile content be banned, and those who want it.

As this is an "Aquarium" society, not a "Fish" society I am personally sitting on the fence.  However, I am now officially sick of the issue

This poll will run for 16 days.  The results will dictate the direction of OVAS with regards to reptiles/amphibians going forward.  The results (and any changes that may take effect based on it) will be announced at the May OVAS meeting.

As this is mainly a forum issue, all forum users are invited to vote.

[Jesse]

I would obviously love to see a reptiles forum on this site. Like it says in the poll, with the reptiles forum if you dont want to read our "graphic" discussions then you wont have too. To be honest you never had to, you are the one that opened the post (I say you in general) yourself knowing that it was reptile related. I would like to thank DarkDep (and any other OVAS exec that helped) for doing something about this issue.

[darkdep]

Although I'm on the fence, the "you chose to open the post" argument isn't really valid.  A lot of people use the "Show Unread Posts" feature and the subject lines don't always convey what may be within.  This is, in fact, one of the reasons the "issue" exists in the first place.

[mseguin]

I will just post one of the main objections that has come up (not by me) to a reptile forum; Darkdep you can can delete if yuo don't feel it is needed.
There is already a herptile club in Ottawa, that is a member of CAOAC. There's a good cahnce they would not want us stepping on their toesa by creating a reptile forum any more than the SAM would like us creating a forum for Montreal fishkeepers. It's a valid poit, IMO.

[darkdep]

Absolutely it is, and one that should be seriously considered by all.  For those who are looking for reptile content here, they should be aware of the issues that may be caused by such a thing happening.

[hamstercaster]

I have voted for it to remain in the Lounge with everything else.  I have nothing against reptiles or reptile lovers and all but I'm sure they have their own forums scattered around the web.  Also, if you open the door for a Reptile forum addition, you are then opening the door for forums on Rodents, Rabbits, Dogs, Cats or any other pets out there and that clearly is not the mandate of OVAS.

[darkdep]

The question on the plate is whether the published mandate of OVAS, "to further the study of all forms of aquatic life", should include reptiles and amphibians. 

Rodents, Rabbits, Dogs, or Cats don't even come close to that, so we're not really opening doors there.

[mseguin]

My own 2 cents here. IMO, any new reptile forum would have to come with a fee, or need OVAS membership.

[beowulf]

I would keep it in the lounge.  How many reptiles are truly aquatic?  A new forum for this is not needed.  I would actually consider a pond forum before a reptile one.

[Mettle]

I voted for it to stay in the Lounge. I think that if it's banned, that's simply idiotic. If you ban all reptile content then you should also ban content about birds, for example, because there is a society or them as well in Ottawa. And for certain dogs and cats, etc etc. Banning is not the answer.

I don't belive that there should be a dedicated reptile forum, however. I don't see it as being relevant for OVAS as a club and like has already been stated OARA does exist. If people feel that it is lacking and not up to par with OVAS then it's time to join that group, pitch in and make it better.

If a forum were created that may include herps I would say that it should be some time of forum dealing with paludarium/pond area. (Man, I have to look up how to spell paludarium almost every time I use that word! LOL.    ) I think in this area we should be open to discussion of herps, probably mostly amphbians due to the humidity but also some lizards, that would do well in these types of settings. But that would just come with the territory. And as of right now I'm doubting the level of interest for a forum such as this to exist on the OVAS site.

If any new forum were to be created I think we would do ourselves a much larger favour by creating an Equipment/Gear forum or something to that effect. Better use of time and resources and I guarantee it is something people would actually use versus a reptile or paludarium forum.

But getting back to the reptile issue, I don't see why we would ban any content relating to reptiles/herps. That just seems rediculous to me. And if that's done then I think there needs to be a similar ban across the board on discussion/posting of all animals other than fish... As for the feeder issue. I don't think we should ban all discussion of feeders. If someone happens to post that they're feeding live it is a great chance for someone else to educate them on the benefits of feeding frozen/thawed prey items. Or simply posting that an order will be placed to a retailed that supplies frozen rodents shouldn't get people's panties in a bunch. I do agree however on holding back about talk on how these mice are killed in order to be made into prey items. However. If you feel so strongly about that graphic discussion then I hope you are a vegetarian because there are a lot of animals out there that provide meat for us on adaily basis that are slaughtered in far worse fashion than some of the mice/rats used as feeders. Otherwise you're being a bit of a hypocrite.

I think that's all I have to say on the topic.

[darkdep]

I hope you are a vegetarian because...

There probably ARE lots of vegetarians here. 

[succinctfish]

Firstly, why is this poll here?  See this thread for more on this.
http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=16797.msg124216;topicseen#new

Since this poll is in club discussions, I will address some concerns I have about the club in relation to the website.  Sometimes I feel the club is getting lost in the website.  Are the interests and concerns of club members, who make this website possible, being truly taken into consideration? Don't get me wrong, I think the website is great, but ultimately what is its purpose?  The aims of the club are stated, but not how this website fits in with them, and how it helps the club.  Sure, it raises awareness about the club, but it also causes a lot of discord, mostly from dealing with these types of issues related to site users.  Certain threads even negatively affect some of the benefits available, goodwill from LFS toward OVAS members because of store bashing comes to mind. 
I have nothing personally against reptile/herp folks.  However, I am concerned about this club being used for a substitute to the herp club because they don't like it there.  Shouldn't this issue be addressed by those folks there?  They seem to have enough energy to discuss it here.

I think we need to get a clear sense of what club members want here.
Perhaps there should be two polls, one for website users, and one for OVAS members, and obviously a discussion at the next meeting in May for those club members who are not online often.  This should not be an arbitrary sudden poll that does not place more weight on the wishes of OVAS as a club.

[Saltcreep]

If any new forum were to be created I think we would do ourselves a much larger favour by creating an Equipment/Gear forum or something to that effect.

Well, at least that's two of us.

[darkdep]

The purpose of the website is to be a wide ranging aquatic information resource.  (Yes, I said aquatic, don't jump on it please).

OVAS provides funds and volunteer labour to produce and maintain this site and all of it's features.  Although in many ways the two are intertwined there are certain elements that are very separate from each other.  The web site is far more than the club; and at the same time the club is far more than the website.

The goals of the website are something that should be established and published.  I'll put this on my todo list to discuss with the executive. 

As for discord, any forum with 1000+ members is going to have differing opinions.  Opinions are good.  Moderators are around to keep things civil where necessary, and to remove any content that is obviously negative in scope.  Store bashing, for example...I think we've done a fantastic job with this.  We've managed to show we are a community and want to hear good and negative experiences, but have also done as much as possible to prevent negative experience reports turning into full fledged bash fests.  This can be proven by the fact that we've had so many sponsors signing up lately, and many of them have stated they were signing up because of the efforts to control bashing.

I would agree that herp enthusiasts have an Ottawa club, and if they care about it they should devote their energy to it.  So many fish enthusiasts devote their energy to OVAS and look how well we're doing!

One thing I'm trying to promote as a difference between the club and the website is who's opinion counts.  In club matters, it is established doctrine that if you're a club member you get to vote on things, otherwise you don't.  However the website is different in this regard; although a card-carrying, financially contributing member of the website may carry more weight on website decisions, unless the vote is for something TRULY club-related only, or carries a financial aspect, I generally ask everyone.  The website has users from all over the country, and even some from the US and other countries; the club doesn't offer anything for them, but the website does (and I want them here).

I'll point out that as of the time of this posting, over 2/3 of the voters are, in fact, card-carrying OVAS members. 

We're not voting on club policy; we're voting on a web-site aspect.  And again, this isn't a black and white vote; I want the opinion of both OVAS members and Forum users to take to the executive to discuss.

[succinctfish]

This still doesn't answer the question of why is this thread here then, and not in website discussions, since, as you say, this is something for everyone to discuss?

I'm not saying that the site users opinions do not count.  I think it's great that we have people registered on the site from different parts of the world, and I certainly don't expect them to become members.  It's the folks here in the city who use the site all the time and express their opinions readily that I think should show their support for the club and become members.  It is their choice of course, and not my main point, which is that this site represents the club to the world, was created by the club, is paid for by club membership, and it's direction and focus should ultimately be determined by the club members, not by everyone on the site.

[Mettle]

So... you're just disgruntled because this poll is in the wrong forum?   

[darkdep]

Succinct:  Taking opinions should never be considered a bad thing.  You've made your points; let's get the feedback, analyze the sources, and then you can flame me all to hell if something happens you disagree with

[bitterman]

This is a fish forum and not a PET forum, I don't have a problem with reptiles, just don't wnat to have to look at pics of them, especially feeding ones. I'm not fond of it being in the lounge, but a new category might not help avoid it when I read all messages. So leaving as is might be best.

I don't go posting pic's of my lastest hunt/kill just for the fact some people don't like it and it bothers them. I think the reptile thing is the same for some people. My wife shutters at a picture of snakes!

Bruce

[Mettle]

I don't think a snake phobia should prohibit people from posting pics of their snakes in the lounge. Just as I don't think a dog phobia should prevent people from posting pics of their dogs. I actually have a phobia of large birds because I was attacked by a macaw when I was about 5 or 6 years old. I deal with it and have actually come to appreciate and respect these birds. I also have a huge worm phobia - which I've managed to overcome in many areas as I feed my beardie almost exclusively on silkworms, hornworms, butter worms and phoenix worms. (Most of those don't quite fall into the same category though.) My big thing is nightcrawlers (rainy days are KILLER for me) and superworms. Walking on a sidewalk covered in those big nasty worms we have around here nearly induces vomitting for me. It's intense and I don't know why. A picture of them definitely makes me squeemish. But if someone posted a pic of their worm culture, let's say, I wouldn't have a major issue with it. I'd just continue browsing.

If it's a 'graphic' feeding picture, that's a different story, and I agree that perhaps those pictures could be left out. But that would be due to 'content' and not because it is of a reptile. If a picture such as that is posted I think it could simply be reported to a moderator and taken care of. Just my thoughts on that one.

[KLKelly]

I only joined OVAS last August but i have to say the website itself has done a good job of working itself out.

I would be one of those members that would be extremely sensitive to reading about live or dead rodent feeding for that matter.  I think the posts by the reptile supporting members have done a great job highlighting the fact that its a reptile post.  I haven't opened one and haven't had a bad experience.  Reptiles personally are things that I don't care for (shiver factor).

PS. I am a vegetarian and I also am a volunteer and foster for a small animal wildlife sanctuary.  The worst stuff I've read have been on these posts relating to this issue.  I think if I had accidentally read some of that information in posts before now I would not be a supporter for leaving things the way they are.

Karrie