Experienced

[FishPassion]

I am writing this thread to find out where did all the OVAS senior fish people go?? Quite often I used to read various threads from people asking for advice be it sw or fw questions. There were some awesome ppl here a few years back giving some damn good advice. Over the past years ppl come and ppl go but advice is loosely thrown at questions asked and I am astounded by what advice is given especially by some that have been in the hobby for only a few weeks to a cpl of mths. I used to throw in my advice but still being a newbie myself none of it was ever taken and as a result disaster struck which at times was inevitable and obviously foreseen. This is my fourth year in the hobby and I can truly print this without hesitation "I have never asked a question in a forum yet" every piece of info I have acquired has been researched many times over and we all know that the net gives conflicting opinions depending on who you listen to and which forum you read on.
So in closing where are you guys? I would love to read some facts from local experienced guys again.

[BigDaddy]

BigDaddy = "chopped liver"

[babblefish1960]

I am writing this thread to find out where did all the OVAS senior fish people go?? Quite often I used to read various threads from people asking for advice be it sw or fw questions. There were some awesome ppl here a few years back giving some damn good advice. Over the past years ppl come and ppl go but advice is loosely thrown at questions asked and I am astounded by what advice is given especially by some that have been in the hobby for only a few weeks to a cpl of mths. I used to throw in my advice but still being a newbie myself none of it was ever taken and as a result disaster struck which at times was inevitable and obviously foreseen. This is my fourth year in the hobby and I can truly print this without hesitation "I have never asked a question in a forum yet" every piece of info I have acquired has been researched many times over and we all know that the net gives conflicting opinions depending on who you listen to and which forum you read on.
So in closing where are you guys? I would love to read some facts from local experienced guys again.

Excellent question, and may I point out that this in fact constitutes your first forum  based question. 

The internet has certainly provided access to easy answers instantaneously, something similar to fast food burgers versus cooking healthy balanced meals at home. I suppose too that it shows as well the inability to really read something, as the spelling and grammatical structure can tend towards the atrocious. A perfectly good Mary Poppins word!

Spelling and grammar are not the question though, content of advice and the proffering of borrowed knowledge not based in fact, coupled with the vomitous expellation of whatever sounds like it could be true is very discouraging in the continuous search for the truth in whatever we are researching.

So, where did all the oldsters go with their vast horde of wisdom, I know I am curious too!

[dan2x38]

I am always open to friendly debate... Also to learn and be taught! I do not see how a person's grammer and or spelling has anything to do with their knownledge, character, IQ, or right of speech without feeling inferior. It is great to have the free exchange of information between persons especially if they are learned on the topic. What I feel is not appropriate is for those more learned persons to feel superior or flash there knowledge around like the muscle men kicking sand in the geeks face at the beach... or the bully in the play ground kicking the ball at them...

I have been involved with computers/electronics/networks since 1984. One of the key things I've learned is that I can never learn to much or learn it all. When I acted like that on the job few people sought my experience and guidance no matter how much I knew. They choose to by-pass me to go to more approachable persons of lesser skills in the field to get friendlier help. I speak from experience I had to learn how to be personable, approachable not being the typical computer geek talking down to my clients or the green horns. I came from the computer age before the public Internet, before PNP (plug & play), before acronyms ruled the earth, and before the GUI interface better known as the knock off- Windows... modified from Apple Computers who'd already invented it.

I learned over time through maturity & experience that I actually knew very little. It was not until I learned how to exchange my know how to the lay person without making them feel talked down to or stupid. I also grew in knowledge when I learned that newbies could teach me much. After all I was given 2 ears but only 1 mouth.

Yes, the Internet is packed with information the good, the bad, and the ugly. But one thing for sure is that an intelligent person should be able discern what is plausible and when more research is needed or asking for help is required. In this information age information exchange is at light speed. What took 10 years to learn is know available because it has been recorded and made available by the experienced and trained.

How else do we learn except by copying information. What exactly is a text book? Is it not a collection of information complied by someone or some group? Why reinvent the wheel when it is already out there. We can always grow, always learn... I know I need to remain humble in my knowledge and not make another feel they are inferior because I am smarter; no not smarter know more of a topic... Smarter is not what I know but what I am able and willing to learn.

In the computer field we copy and paste endlessly the work of others it only needs to be modified. We are able to learn new things not having to re-vent the known so we can learn more rapidly the unknown. What took me hours, weeks, even years to learn in my field is available to everyone because we passed it down; kind of like history?

OH Yes, veterans are more then invaluable and necessary how else could we all learn? That is what our institutions of learning are for. They download and hand down there experience to us all. Professors with there plaid coats and leather elbow patches, puffing pipes, quoting dusty passages, sipping over priced cheap wine, looking down over the rims of their dirty lenses at me or another or another because we are a freshmen... well shame on them... and shame on me if I do not pass on what I've learned as a catalyst for another to explore!

Yes Virgin we can all learn and learn faster... but God condeem me if I choose not to learn because I know it all, to not question, or to not share my experience through my learning and research...

Experienced who decides that? Knowledgeable who decides that? But willingness oh Yeah I decide that!!!

That is my 2 cents spoken in whatever grammar it may be judged...

[charlie]

I`m enjoying this thread  , very refreshing , keep it coming guy`s  .
Regards

[fischkopp]

The thing with experience is that first you never can have enough and second that it may be different from others people experience. Knowledge on the other hand can be judged in a way whether you make a big science out of aquariums, whether  you have a good tip to share or whether you think your experience can help ...

Beside the fact that everybody who starts with this hobby should do her/his homework and learn as much and deep as possible/necessary before getting started and post all kind of questions I think that every questions is worth to be asked and if someone think he can help with his experience he should go ahead and answer. Every thread is a living discussion, so other people participate to share their experience and will at the worst step in if something is said wrong. This will help everybody to learn! And my experience with this that is that the help given in this forum is still excellent. So there must be some very experienced people out there.

This is just my humble opinion to this topic ... 

And: i really like the quite refreshing threads in this forum where people just tell what just happened. Like spawning fish stories, new ideas, thought that may be relevant ... thats what this forum lives off.


PS: i havent started i real thread on my own yet, too. Because every forum has this neat search function. Many questions have been answered already ... 

[Iceman]

PS: i haven't started i real thread on my own yet, too. Because every forum has this neat search function. Many questions have been answered already ... 

I can't disagree with this as most of my questions have been answered via a search of previous threads.

And: i really like the quite refreshing threads in this forum where people just tell what just happened. Like spawning fish stories, new ideas, thought that may be relevant ... thats what this forum lives off.

I'm still waiting to share a story like that. Someone has offered to take my current fish away to a new home so I can set up two new tanks. I know there are plenty of experienced people here to answer questions outside the norm.

[succinctfish]

Okay, I shall wade into this discussion.  I wasn't going to say anything because I will inevitably be accused of finger pointing or being anti newbie, but this is a topic which has concerned me lately.  I agree that this hobby, and life in general, is a learning experience, we get out of it what we put into it.  It's fine to be learning, and sharing, but these are lives that we deal with, small, fishy lives, and I have felt concerned, frustrated, and ultimately faced with the decision to comment in threads where I feel the advice is not well considered and not in the best interest of the fish, or of those who will read the thread looking for answers.  We are a resource on the internet for fish keepers, new and experienced.  Isn't there an inherent responsibility as a club to redress incorrect information so that fish are not neglected or harmed?  It's not about ego, elitism, or accumulating posting numbers, it's about the fish and taking care of them.  Isn't that why we are all here?
And once again, there is spell check on this site.  If people can't understand what you have written, how helpful is it?  We all make occasional mistakes, but it's good to make an effort.
I like the spawning fish stories too.   Let's explore this great hobby, discuss it, debate it, but always think before you post, that's why we have motor control over our fingers

[FishPassion]

Excellent points succinctfish, especially LIVES, over and over we see issues of "lives' either being cramped into tanks way to small for them and not being able to grow properly let alone comfortably. Questions are fine to ask AFTER the research has been done, so that the individual has some preliminary comprehension as to the livelyhood of a certain species. The fact is that many people rely on "answers given to there question" and either skim over or not listen to the perhaps seasoned hobbiest that has seen that situation first hand, it happens time and time again. I for one am hesitant and am posting less and less on OVAS forums to the questions asked, for the simple reason that ppl dont listen!! Frustration has also set in for me succinctfish and we need those oltimers chirping in as well (even the chopped liver guy ) to perhaps correct misadvised answers so that the "lives" have a fighting chance to survive. Everyone has most likely seen an LFS on a busy saturday and we all see the pretty lil fish, tanks, etc purchased for the tiny tots. To the ppl working at an LFS hats off to you for educating a consumer that wants to purchase nemo and put him in with the goldfish at home. OVAS is site where hobbiests come to learn, help, and grow within there hobby so lets try to all get together and perhaps give "proper" info or maybe a site exec can step into some threads and readvise correctly should info go wayyyyyyyyyyy off track...

[Crumpet]

I wasn't going to respond to this thread, even though I've wanted to.  But Klaus, you've nailed down something I've been feeling lately . . .

I for one am hesitant and am posting less and less on OVAS forums to the questions asked, for the simple reason that ppl dont listen!! Frustration has also set in for me [. . .]

YES!  Totally agree.  It has been feeling of late like it did when I worked in the fish store -- giving advice from experience until one is practically blue in the face, then the recipient saying, "whatever, my buddy told me it would work" and doing what they will regardless (and then worst of all having same person return to you the following week saying the fish/creature is sick/dead "because no one told them otherwise"  (!) Excuse me, but wasn't that me over there trying to offer you sense for over 45 minutes in a vain attempt to get you to reconsider?  Even after I've refused to catch something for someone who will not listen to sense, they then go to another co-worker or store to get it caught.  All together now: arrrrgggh!) While the example is off-topic, the deja vu, feeling of frustration is not.

Well said, Klaus.

[BigDaddy]

Here is something to consider:

In the past year, the Club proper has experienced almost 100% growth (from approx. 130 members to 250 as of last month)

In the past year, the website has seen traffic double, as well as an additional 1000 new users (an average of 80 new users a month).

Having been involved with other websites and other hobbies, there is a natural ebb and flow (pardon the pun) to the community.  Right now, we are getting a virtual tsunami of interest from "newbies".  Some are first time fish-keepers, others may be long time hobbyists who have just come across the website.

It is very easy, as an "old timer", "veteran" or whatever other term you'd like to use, to get washed away in the flood of new postings.  The reaction that some elitist-style forums will take is the infamous "STFU n00b" line (those who know what it stands for, thank god it doesn't happen here, and those who don't enjoy bliss of ignorance on the topic).  The other approach is to teach, to mold, to encourage and to help.  As Crumpet has pointed out, it is a selfless task and sometimes a frustrating one.  But for the 10 people who walk into a store and don't listen to the advice, there is the 1 who listens, who learns and becomes a lifetime part of the hobby.  The same thing happens here.

So to all the veterans out there I say "Hold the course".  The community will be richer for it.

[Zoe]

I don't think one can generalize and say that no one listens.  I know no one is saying, but that's the general sentiment I get from many of you - and other forums... that it's just not worth posting a reply because no one takes the advice.
I also don't think we can act like it was different 10 years ago - well, obviously it was, but there were noobs 10 years and there will be noobs 10 years from now.  Now, as it was then and as it will always be, some listen, and some don't. Some research, some ask stupid questions, and others just do what they want and hope for the best.
I'm sure that I myself have asked lots of stupid questions; I'm the type of person that doesn't understand something until I actually do it (even something as simple as DIY CO2 - until I took the steps to actually put it together, I had no idea what I was doing).  And I'm also the type whose understanding gets better when I explain it to someone else.  I guess we're all like that to some extent. But I try my best to research first, then ask questions on what I don't understand or to get practical experience feedback and opinions - and then I do whatever I'm trying to do.

Anyway, I think the wealth of information that lies on the internet, in forums and in books far surpasses the stupid information out there.

The answer is not to give up because some people don't listen.  Just give the advice, back it up with a few facts, and if they don't listen, well, there's not much you can do. Take comfort in the fact that most people don't WANT to fail - they just want to cut corners, cut costs, and get whatever fish they want to get because someone else told them an oscar could fit in a 10 gallon tank.  But when they do fail, they will either give up, or learn what they need to learn to make it work. I'm sure that very few will continue to try and fail - that's demoralizing and hard on the wallet, regardless of whether you consider the lives of your fish or not.

And do know that just because the original poster doesn't listen, it doesn't mean that no one else will take your advice. As someone else mentioned, one can search a topic and get answers without asking the question themselves.

And lastly, I beg to differ: grammar and spelling make a big difference, to me anyway.  We all make mistakes - I myself tend to skip words because I think faster than I can type... But when we can't understand what was said, or when obvious words are misspelled (not just a typo), it really makes the poster seem dumb - regardless of whether or not they are.

[dan2x38]

Who could not agree that the lives of fish are paramount and this hobby is not just for watching pretty fish but for preserving them as well without abuse. No different than a dog, cat, bird, etc. Opps or reptile!   I spend endless hours reading for enjoyment and to learn how to preserve my fish's lives, also for better care of my fish, plants, and maintaining water quality. I take great pride in my tanks and success, they are my treasures! Without my listening to LFS staff I would be lost.

I've tried to make a point that maybe newbie's may fear posting because of being made to feel less than because they've only been around for a short time with limited knowledge or their question is stupid. I see that experienced and veteran aquarists are sensitive but without them posting how could we all learn? The transfer of know how is priceless...

It is sometimes in the delivery that makes others feel inferior. I more than agree that when sound advice is given but ignored then those people are stubborn and close minded therefore risking and killing helpless fish! I personally never purchase without asking my regular LFS for their advice and online research.

In my eyes forums of this quality will be around for another 55 years if old-timers continue to give their knowledge and now how to us newer in the hobby. When we flounder for them to offer a friendly hand to help us up. I for one accept criticism and invite it how else can I learn? Teachers and Professors struggle year after year with the problem of students ignoring their expertise but they still teach; not for the money that's for sure. It is when you learned hobbyists post corrections and moderate threads for misinformation that makes this forum top notch and worth 100 x the pittance paid for a membership.

So I hope no veteran aquarists are offended with my candor I do speak my mind and hope it is not so narrow that I cannot admit I am humbled by so many of you...    !!! Besides I do enjoy a good debate!   This forum simulates my mind it makes my online time more meaningful. Just my opinion...  

[BigMomma]

Spelling and grammar are not the question though, content of advice and the proffering of borrowed knowledge not based in fact, coupled with the vomitous expellation of whatever sounds like it could be true is very discouraging in the continuous search for the truth in whatever we are researching.

Sounds like a really bad reading indigestion 

Klaus, you raise some excellent points. We all have to contend with this issue in our society in general, it seems like everyone is an expert. Wikipedia is a statement to that effect ...

I don't believe I have asked a question on this Forum either about fish or plants ... mind you I rely very much on Mr. Chopped Liver ...  books and trusted websites.  However, I do think that if someone had a question and has gone and done their research (and by research I mean looking at several websites or books, before coming to a proper conclusion) they should post it for the benefit of others. This is also a great way to validate their findings! So there you go I am guilty of not posting enough of my own ...

[dan2x38]

Here is something to consider:

In the past year, the Club proper has experienced almost 100% growth (from approx. 130 members to 250 as of last month)

In the past year, the website has seen traffic double, as well as an additional 1000 new users (an average of 80 new users a month).

Having been involved with other websites and other hobbies, there is a natural ebb and flow (pardon the pun) to the community.  Right now, we are getting a virtual tsunami of interest from "newbies".  Some are first time fish-keepers, others may be long time hobbyists who have just come across the website.

It is very easy, as an "old timer", "veteran" or whatever other term you'd like to use, to get washed away in the flood of new postings.  The reaction that some elitist-style forums will take is the infamous "STFU n00b" line (those who know what it stands for, thank god it doesn't happen here, and those who don't enjoy bliss of ignorance on the topic).  The other approach is to teach, to mold, to encourage and to help.  As Crumpet has pointed out, it is a selfless task and sometimes a frustrating one.  But for the 10 people who walk into a store and don't listen to the advice, there is the 1 who listens, who learns and becomes a lifetime part of the hobby.  The same thing happens here.

So to all the veterans out there I say "Hold the course".  The community will be richer for it.

in Tech talk it is- RTFM

[BigDaddy]

in Tech talk it is- RTFM

Had me confused there for a sec dan...

I assume you were talking about my reference to "STFU n00b".  In that case, instead of quoting the entire post, you can just quote the comment in question like this

Code Select Expand

[quote author=BigDaddy link=topic=18105.msg132494#msg132494 date=1183129456]The reaction that some elitist-style forums will take is the infamous "STFU n00b" line (those who know what it stands for, thank god it doesn't happen here, and those who don't enjoy bliss of ignorance on the topic). [/quote]

Makes it a bit clearer 

[dan2x38]

In that case, instead of quoting the entire post, you can just quote the comment in question like this

TANKs I am a great copy cat... 

[succinctfish]

I feel even this thread is being derailed again.  Let's stay on topic here.  This kind of  degradation from the originating post is one of the things I am concerned about. We're not talking about short forms of computer talk here, we're talking about the frustration being felt when we're trying to share information on this site.  Let me add mindless derailing to my list of frustrations.  There is flashchat for those who just want to shoot the breeze, and private messaging to communicate off topic.  As I have said in the past, I like the joking and sharing of wit, and we have the lounge for that, but there is so much chatty talk at the expense of posts that has been occuring lately.  Let's stick to the topic at hand, which goes back to my think before you type point earlier in this thread.  It's also always good to read and absorb what has been said previously in a thread before those little digits start tapping keys and pressing post.

[babblefish1960]

There are some very good points bandied about here, but alas, I have to say that there is an inordinate amount of threadjacking in existence throughout the site, and it is more than annoying.

In conversation, when people are talking to each other, one of the rudest things that occurs is changing the subject midstream when one is not interested in what the other person has to say, but rather, they feel adamant that what the topic shifter has to say is what is important. I am referring to listening skills. These listening skills are very important in any meaningful verbal intercourse, and quite honestly it is no different here in type.

If one person is speaking, it is not listening if you are thinking about your reply while they speak and not caring if it is related at all is even worse.

Albeit it is not truly possible to insist on good manners, there will always be boors out there unwilling to share airtime in a conversation, but frankly, when there are so many potential conversations in a forum, it should be more likely to stay on topic, for, as everyone knows, if you have a standalone statement that you would like to inject into a conversation, then do the right thing, have it stand alone in its own thread.

I suspect that there are more than a few of us out here that believe we are brilliant and also cling to the truism (sic) that everyone else needs to know what we think on every subject. As realistic as this may seem for some of us, no matter what your mother said about being God's gift to mankind, she was in error. There is great wisdom in not having noise come out of your mouth every time it is open. For some, one could suggest that every time the mouth opens the brain falls out, very few of us want to actually see that much content.

I am called babble for a good reason, I talk incessantly, and much to the annoyance of quite a few, however, in amongst my endless prattle, you will rarely find much in the way of personal information, I do not believe that any but a few are actually interested, and this is discernment, something that is not an inborn trait, but a learned one. We have all been in public and heard at least once in our life all the sordid details of someone's indiscretions or miserable life, and really, we all get embarrassed by it as it lacks circumspection and decorum.

Am I off topic? Not really, this thread was started because a number of respected people both in the club and on the club website have approached me regarding feeling lost on the forum as there is so much inane posting that is extraneous at best.

Am I suggesting that everyone shut up for a while? Not at all, everyone has a unique perspective and a certain point of view that comes from their own experience and understanding of the world around them. It is this reason that these forums work, if we all had the answers to everything, we would not need to communicate ever again, but this is clearly not so, we can all benefit from what everyone has to say. However, having said that, there have been a flood of recent posts, and this is cyclical, that have serious questions being answered in ways that suggest that though the intention may be good hearted, the advice is not their own, proven, or even tested, just thrown out there in the hopes that like any lottery, they could be right and may gain some new esteem for having answered someone's question.

Puffing oneself up is prideful, and this is a risky path, consider instead the motives you use in posting and what you are truly answering, is it the question asked to your understanding, or is it merely a deep seated need to be heard when you discover Oprah or Jerry Springer doesn't actually take your advice as you scream it at the television.

I think one of the most courteous behaviours one can bestow upon another persons thread, as well as the ensuing posts that naturally follow, would be to actually read what has gone before, then, upon considering what you would add to the swirl of information, it is delightful to hear what you have to say, if it is relevant, pertinent, and of course, mindful of the overall content and intention of the thread.

The rare exception of course would be a monster thread such as " On-line names??? " or the ubiquitous " Thread Jacking " , where silliness is supposed to abound. These are outlets for talking about whatever you want in no particular order, or sharing where you found your on site moniker.

In summation, if you are not posting in response to the original poster's topic, then you aren't being nice.

At the risk of sounding like Thumper's admonishing mother, "if you haven't got anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all".

[darkdep]

Holy freaking moly.  You go away for a bit and look what happens

Let me throw some thoughts out there that many of you haven't yet considered.  As BD pointed out, the club and forum have exploded with new people this year; hell our top "number of people on the forum at one time" stat went from something like 67 to 130 last month.  That's ONE HUNDRED THIRTY PEOPLE all reading OVAS at the same moment.  That's cool.

For those of you thinking your advice isn't heeded sometimes; maybe someone posts a question, you answer it, and they ignore you.  You feel frustrated; don't.  Because the reality is that probably 10+ other forum members and 100+ "guests" (people who find posts via google) DID listen to you.

The knowledgeable people are all still here.  We just have lots of new people (and I'm very happy to have each and every new person here!).  Advice is just that, advice...and in the fish world there are few hard and fast rules.  I've given advice that was modified...and then I ended up taking that modification as advice

As for the off topic thing, I wouldn't call it "rude" to go off topic; I think that's far too harsh.  People have conversations and those conversations ebb and flow.