Experienced

[FishPassion]

Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got your attention OVAS execs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, please feel free to delete my post if I am out of line here. My original Question was where did the senior ppl go? No offence Big Daddy and DarkDep and yes there are sum of u still here. Yes Your site HAS grown by leaps and bounds GREAT!!! The truth is, if a certain thread asking a question, is improperly answered by wrong or misleading answers and one lone correct answer well, "survey says" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!       that is the answer the person will take and possibly others as well by a majority rules type of answer.

The site has grown no doubt,and I have said this to a few of you allready in person,   Think of a salesman bringing in sales and not having the "product" to back up sales. Have you guys ever thought that this site may slide as fast as it has climbed??? Who is there on this forum to "guide" ppl in the RIGHT direction or plain and simple say NO YOU ARE WRONG! Yes there may be a person or two that will understand the correct answer and take that advice but how many go with the majority rules answer and dont RESEARCH a thing on there own anyways. Oh and this is the WWW world wide web so just how far do the answers reach. I guess with the awesome numbers that OVAS has achieved it is time for some professionalism on the board and ummm perhaps moderation hint hint!!! So before another senior hobbiest bites the dust and leaves, look out there and get them back or hang on to em get some guidance and order in these forums.

I sincerely hope I have not offended anybody in any way shape or form by my comments.

Klaus Jenett
 
Another one bites the dust and another one gone and another one gone another one bites the dust!!!!!!!

[darkdep]

You're not out of line.  I just don't know what to tell you.  I spend a lot of time answering questions when I have the time.  But I'll be the first to tell you that my "advice" is just a replay of my experiences and opinions; they have worked for me but may not be "right" in the minds of some others.  I do my best, as do soooo many others.

Do you have a direct suggestion here?  I mean, if you read a thread where info is incorrect, do YOU jump in and correct them? 

[fender316]

It's hard when there's freshwater, and saltwater.  There are a lot more experienced freshwater here than saltwater I'm assuming, and to be honest, I think the cichlid breeders are like the soup nazi when it comes to water parameters.  that's why I like to get their opinion on certain things, even though I'm out of freshwater 100%.  when it boils down to experience they got it no questions asked, and there are a lot of related issues between fresh and salt.  the salt community is growing though, and I feel that if I post a question in the saltwater forum i usually get an answer or a direction to go to solve my problem.  But there is no definite asnwer to any question with saltwater.  Would it not be safe to assume that the larger the club, the more experience it would have as an entity?  it seems to me you (and probably others) assuming no one who hasnt put their time in can help, kinda like starting a new job somewhere

[beowulf]

I think moderators just might be the way to go or even lables under peoples name stating their experience or that they are veteran fish keeprs. 

[fender316]

lol....... who's gonna decide who the veterans are?  And who knows more than the next guy.  Im not gonna give aquatic examples even though i could.

Railings:  I've been doing it for 3-4 years, and I have a great rep.  i look like a kid.  i had long hair..hippie factor.   i get weird looks, and i know the homeowner is wondering why im not at school.  when some pays over $20000 to have a rail installed do you think they want me there?  but the thing is the guy that has been doing it for 20 years usually messes something up on every job.  cuts corners.  nuff said.  i realise its not aquariums but its the same old song and dance.

[FishPassion]

Actually YES I have jumped in on several occasions with comments related to DIRECT experiences in regards to fish that I have had but was so quickly outnumbered by other answers that well my 2 cents worth of REAL experience didnt go anywhere. Perhaps a Mod in the sw,fw field can weed through the responses and set things back in the right direction with a more direct and positive answer.

[fender316]

I think a simple solution would be to allow the original poster the option to delete unwated posts in his/her thread?

[dan2x38]

Perhaps a Mod in the sw,fw field can weed through the responses and set things back in the right direction with a more direct and positive answer.

that is one example I am saying about some of the experienced... God I want and need their advice, comments, & criticism how else can I expand my knowledge except by absorbing their experience and knowledge? I've always been like a sponge I do absorb knowledge quickly... it is sometimes the hi-browed delivery...

The experienced are my teachers any good teacher has to offer constructive criticism I personally invite it... God help us all if the experienced here or anywhere withdraw through frustration... to me that is when they are needed most...!!! 

[FishPassion]

I dont believe that deleting posts by the original person would solve this issue, what if the person is very new and is looking for proper guidance that individual may be bombarded with whatever% of wrong answers and really isnt any futher ahead as to WHAT to delete...

[BigDaddy]

I think a simple solution would be to allow the original poster the option to delete unwated posts in his/her thread?

Then each user would become a mini-moderator, with the ability to affect content on the forums.  Not a good idea.

[beowulf]

Then each user would become a mini-moderator, with the ability to affect content on the forums.  Not a good idea.

I was thinking the same thing.  In the end it might be up to the execs to select mods.  People not part of the exec who are known for their knowledge in a certain subject (be it marine, africans, etc) who would be willing to take the responsibility for a particular boards.  This would allow the execs to remain as "global" mods.  Just an idea.

[darkdep]

Keep in mind these are Discussion forums.  People are free to post their opinions and experiences...good or bad...right or wrong...

Do you want to exist on a forum where someone decides who's right and wrong to the degree you suggest?  I don't.  What happens when you become more experienced?  Then you get told you're "wrong" when something from your experience has worked?

Doing research on a topic involves checking multiple sources and listening to multiple people.  It is up to each of us to decide which advice or information to follow or utilize. 

Fender talks about the "soup nazi" cichlid breeders talking about water parameters.  He's got a point.  Go google "African Cichlid Water Parameters" and you'll be told by millions of reputable sources across the entire internet that Africans "prefer" very hard water.  You'll be given recipes for DIY salt mixes, some simple and some complex, and told that your Africans will not survive without doing massive work with the water.  I breed a lot of Africans, and some misguided people have called me an "expert" in the past; my cichlids thrive in straight tap water with no tinkering at all.  Oh, that must be because the water is really hard in Kanata!  Yeah, it's not.  About 60ppm, very soft, very little buffer, not really high pH (7.6).

So, my direct experience contradicts a lot of the internet.  Who here is going to decide that I'm "right" over so many adamant others?  Nobody.  Am I right?  Some would agree, many wouldn't.  Oh well. 

Putting titles under people marking them as an "expert" will just result in pissing others off who don't get the title.  Once you spend some time here (as you have, Dan) you will pick up who the experts are just by the quality of their information.

[Zoe]

I suspect that there are more than a few of us out here that believe we are brilliant and also cling to the truism (sic) that everyone else needs to know what we think on every subject.

Forgive me, but isn't that the point of having a forum where people can discuss their thoughts and opinions, read others', and reply, etc?  Naturally not everyone needs to know every single little detail on every single little subject - but if everyone kept their opinions to themselves, these discussions wouldn't get very far at all, and I would not enjoy reading them or sometimes participating in them half as much.

I hate to say it, but length of post has a lot to do with it. While I find your posts are always great, Babble, I do find some of them long, like the one whence came the quote above.  There's nothing wrong with long posts - I'm sure mine get awfully longwinded at times - but one can't expect rapt attention forever. Conciseness is, at times, good, especially for humans with short attention spans... such as almost everyone

I'm not sure if threadjacking here - I've never really understood the concept, I guess, unless it's REALLY off topic - because I consider these threads to be discussions, and discussions naturally progress to things other than the original first sentence.  Not that all conversations should be taken over as soon as they start, but if it's a natural progression that still relates to the original topic, I don't understand the difference between threadjacking, and just expanding the conversation.  So feel free to call me on threadjacking anytime I do it... eventually I'll learn.

With regards to right or wrong - most cases, it's not as clear as that. If the information given IS downright wrong, then by all means, I would encourage anyone to step in and give the right information (back it up with facts if you want to, or experience, etc).  I think is was DarkDep who said it best - that many, many more people will see the answers - not just the original asker. I can't count the number of times I've read forum posts to get answers to my questions without asking them myself.  It's really helpful! At times, much more so than articles or even books. 

Would it not be safe to assume that the larger the club, the more experience it would have as an entity?  it seems to me you (and probably others) assuming no one who hasnt put their time in can help, kinda like starting a new job somewhere

I don't think so... "total" years of experience may go up, but I would venture to say that someone with four years of experience knows more than four times more than four people with one year of experience, if you know what I mean.  Ten people with one year of experience probably know less, total, than one person with 6 years of experience.

I think a simple solution would be to allow the original poster the option to delete unwated posts in his/her thread?

No! I don't agree with that at all.  ALL information, even wrong information, contributes to the general knowledge of all involved. One can't LEARN what is wrong (which is just as important as what is right, sometimes) without seeing it. One can't learn from others' mistakes without hearing about them.  Eliminating all information that is wrong is just eliminating all knowledge that that information is wrong.  What needs to happen is for someone to come in and say "No, that's not right, an oscar will not thrive in anything smaller than 75 gallons."

I don't think there's anything to be done about the influx of erroneous information, except to be vigilant in correcting it. As I said before, there will ALWAYS be wrong-headed crackpots with crazy theories, just as there will be people will success who follow books to the letter, and others yet who will experiment and discover new ways and processes and methods and materials... Only by listening and reading and researching ALL of these can we make our own decisions and learn the best way(s) to go about accomplishing our fishy goals!

Let me demonstrate, imagine these are two different threads, each with the question "What's the best tank for an oscar?"

Thread one: - 80 gallons is a good size.

Thread two (three replies):
- I think 10 gallons is okay; fish don't grow any bigger than their tank.

- Actually, a fish kept in a 10 gallon tank will be stunted... bla bla bla... at least 125 gallons per oscar.

- In my experience, a 75 gallon tank is sufficient for one oscar, provided you keep up with weekly water changes


Do you see what I mean?

[fender316]

sorry i didnt mean that so people could delete unwanted opinions, because i believe everyone has a different point of view...i was thinking more along the lines of unrelated/threadjack stuff.  i guess that's what moderators are for...

[darkdep]

Those imaginary Oscar threads hit the nail on the head...obviously the 10gal comment is wrong, but the other comments are all opinions, and valid ones.  They would all work.

Fishkeeping is a cool world, because there are SO MANY opinions and so many ways to do the same thing; breaking the rules is half the fun sometimes!!

[KLKelly]

I am a newbie compared to most of you guys.  I bought my first tank and adopted a beat up goldfish in March 2006.  I learned the hard way.  I love reading books, forums, articles etc on anything to do with fish in general.  I am confident in helping with intro stuff - like pointing people to articles on cycling, the importance of test kits, and will get on a soapbox to educate people on how easy fishless cycling is (if media isn't an option).  I have horrible water and read as much as I can on this.

I think Fishpassion brings up a very good point.
Three specific comments:
1. As a brand new newbie - everyones advice carried the same weight.  Unfortunately so did the advice from the LFS/PS and I bought a lot of needless products. [The black on the fins/tail was a sign of ammonia burn and not a sign of healing.  Nobody once brought up cycling in any one of many visits that first two weeks I was seeking help].  Thankfully I found OVAS and another amazing forum.  Because of the amazingly patient people I now have a lifelong love.  I could have easily gotten discouraged and walked away.

2. If I ever type a response that anyone disagrees with I would hope that they would do so in the thread itself or in a PM.  In another forum - if its a hot topic with lots of opinions it gets opened as a think tank thread to be debated.  If advice isn't corrected odds are good it will be re-offered unchanged in the future.

3.  (This wasn't specifically mentioned in the initial thread - kind of offtopic)... I would hope that if an "expert" posts a question - that other experts are proactive in offering their advice/feedback.  Maybe a hint could be added to the post... "expert advice needed" or something along those lines.  Hopefully newbies would get the hint. 

[kennyman]

The need for solid advice like we get from experienced members is undoubtedly valuable. I have learned much and continue to learn more every time I read the forums. But I never looked at this site solely as a resource like AquariumPros.com or whatever. I looked at it like a fun place to share the hobby in a club atmosphere. I am not disputing anything you have said or thought Klaus. But I am left wondering how well ovas the fish club and ovas the ultimate online knowledge base will coexist.

I also cant help but wonder if thats how some club members felt when the wave of noobs I rode in on crashed landed here a couple of years ago.

[mseguin]

I'll admit first of all that I don't reply to many of the more basic questions on the forum, mostly because I work in a LFS and spend all day answering questions, ranging from the completely inane (i.e. you should have more common sense than that) to the basic (i.e. a $10 book would answer most of these questions)  to the challenging ones that honestly make the day fly by. I'll say, in general, most people on this forum avoid the inane ones. As for basic ones (such as let's say, how harmful is ammonia?) I will probably skip over ones like that; somewhat middle ones (such as, what is better, aquaclear or marineland filters?) depend on what kind of day I've had, if I've had my evening beer, etc; and if it is a truly challenging question (such as about genetics, etc) I tend to wade in with a long winded reply. I don't think it makes me elitist that I sometimes don't want to reply to the basic questions but leave them for others to answer; I think it makes me human. It just so happens my job and hobby coincide, so sometimes I try to keep my hobby from feeling too much like my job. And as for many others, there's only so much time in the day, sometimes there isn't enough between picking up the kids, going to work, and making dinner to answer all the relatively beginner questions.
As for right and wrong, very little is black & white in this hobby. There are some obvious wrong answers, but alot of that depends on perspective. Just as an example, there are many people who say a fishless cycle is the only proper way to cycle a tank; I happen to disagree, and never lose fish when cycling a new tank, because IMO there is a proper way to do it with fish as well. Who's wrong? Really neither, IMO. So limiting the discussion is not the answer.
And yes, the forum seems to be somewhat newbie heavy lately. That's the cycle. The experienced members make the forum a treasure trove of info, new hobbyists flock to the info, ask questions, and more info is added. Eventually these new hobbyists add their own experiences to the knowledge base, and everyone gains.
I have seen far more elitist websites, where if yuo ask a question that may have been answered before, you may as well ahve blasphemed. I don't think that ever happens on this website, but I do recommend research as much as possible. Instead of asking what the ammonia cycle is, do some reading, or online research, and when yuo understand it, come back and ask why you seem to still be having nitrite issues after a month. My personal opinion is that the best questions are not the general ones, but rather ones that refer to a specific tank, species, problem etc. This is where the experience comes in, as opposed to just book knowledge.
Dunno if that all made sense, but that's my two cents.