Is this ich?

[MikeM]

The clown loaches I bought about a week ago came down with ich.  I've been treated with 1/2 the suggested dose of Super Ick Cure, since the loaches are sensitive.  I've been treating since the day after I introduced the loaches to the tank, which is when they first started showing (a lot) of spots.  I understand the medication only works on the ich parasite when it is in its free-swimming phase, so I've been doing a 30% water change every other day, and adding in the ick cure dosage after that.  The loaches spots have cleared, and until today, none of the other fish seemed to be affected.

Today I noticed one of my angelfish had a large white patch on its side, which is raised slightly and "kind of" resembles the ich spots on the loaches, but its much larger and looks like a bunch of ick spots clustered together.  This fish is also pretty aggressive during feeding, so I wonder if it's something he might have got jousting with the other angels and its become infected, or if ick on larger scaled fish looks different. 

I've attached a couple of pics, I apologize for the crummy quality, as I don't have a tripod, and he didn't seem to want to show me his injured side.  He did not come up to the surface today when I fed them, which is unusual, as the angels usually try to bite off my hand.  He did take a couple bites from the algae wafer, but no flakes.  Also his mouth is moving like crazy, like he's gasping, but he's staying near the bottom.  The tank mates are all acting normally, and water readings are excellent, amm = 0, nitrate = 0, nitrate = 10, pH has creeped up to about 7.8 from 7.6 when I introduced the fish.  I do my water changes with a python, and add in prime as I add the water.

Thanks for all your advice, and patience with a newbie.  I knew the hobby would take patience, but I didn't think I would lose sleep worrying about my fish.   Poor little guys, I've been trying so hard and it's been one thing after another ever since I introduced them.  First the sick loaches, then I lost 7 out of 10 cardinal tetras, I'm guessing because they were still acclimating when I started the ich treatment  , now this.  I should have listened to the voice in the back of my head that said to pick up the gear for a QT tank when Superpet put everything on sale. 

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[fishycanuck]

I can't tell from the photos if this is ich, but if the fish have spots like salt crystals on them, that is ich.
I've had ichy tanks a few times, and have had good luck with Copper Safe or salt cures. That being said, I do not know about loaches and if they would be OK with either of these remedies.
Perhaps a loach fancier could weigh in on this?

[MikeM]

Unfortunately, the little guy passed away over night.  The spot had at least tripled in size, as well as spread to the other side of his body.  White and cottony, it looked like pictures I have seen of fungal infections.  No signs of anything on anyone else, so I'm keeping my finger's crossed, I doesn't appear on any one else.

[KLKelly]

Does it sound like flex/columnaris?  I've only ever seen it on rainbowfish - and not on the body.  Just googling it though it looks like angels are susceptible if they are stressed and that it can be on both sides of the fish (looking like a saddle).

[MikeM]

After a quick google, I think you're right, it does appear to be columnaris.  Thank you.  None of the articles I came across, in my admittedly brief search, mentioned how contagious it is.  Just that it tends to strike stressed fish.  Is it something that will pass to the other fish?  Most of the articles suggest treating with an antibiotic, which I think will trash my biological filter.  I also saw a reference to malachite green, which I believe is the active ingredient in the ich medication.  I'm wondering if this is something I should just fight with good gravel cleaning and frequent water changes.  I've got another 3 days or so of ich treatment, so I'm not sure mixing antibiotics with that would be a very good idea.  I've also read a lot about antibiotics doing more harm than good.  I wish I could put in some salt, but I don't think the loaches tolerate it well, and I'm sure they're not 100% from their very bad ick infection yet, even though they aren't showing any spots.

Thanks again for the suggestion, most of the fish disease sites lack pictures, and nothing can replace an experienced eye.

[KLKelly]

I've only ever treated an outbreak in two batches of small rainbow fish.  It showed up as strings of white on their mouths.  I asked for advice on a rainbow fish forum and they only wanted me to make sure my water was pristine.  I lost all the furcatus within the week.

I then picked up some blue eyes and four of the 11 showed it.  I treated with maracyn plus and they all survived.

It will blow away your filter for sure.  I had another tank to reseed it from.  If you do end up seeing it on other fish consider your treatment options.  I'm sure someone here would donate media.

I don't know about salt.  I think columnaris is a bacteria (not a fungus or a parasite) so I'm not sure if it will help.  Just keep an eye on your guys of course and find out what the symptoms are.  I know there are a lot of angelfish lovers and breeders here which may be an invaluable source of advice.  I know loaches online is anti salt - they don't see it as being beneficial.

[dan2x38]

Ich pics

Columnaris pics

Great articles on Columnaris Flexibacter: 1st Site & 2nd Site, nasty stuff. Hope this helps!

Good Luck!

[MikeM]

Great articles, thanks.   It looks like it definitely was columnaris when I looked at it closely out of the water.  My current working theory is that it came in on my impulse-purchased Cardinal Tetras.  Which might go along way to explain why they dropped like flies, and the timing is about right.  I'm a little concerned about one of the other angels, it looks like it might have a similar patch near its mouth, and he does seem to be gasping, but the patch is much much smaller and resembles an ich spot, and I did notice him doing the "scratching" motion against a rock yesterday or the day before.  He's from the same tank at the LFS, so that's another possible theory for where columnaris could have come from.  I know the ich came from the loaches, because the tank at the store was QT'd the next day.  I'm thinking about buying the stuff for a QT tank and medicating the possibly sick angel in a separate tank to save my biofilter.  My tank has been up and running almost 2 months, the first month being a fishless cycle.  Is it too early to steal filter media from it for the hospital tank?  It cycled "by the book", and I haven't seen any ammonia or nitrite since, but I also haven't cleaned my filter other than removing the carbon to medicate for ich.

[KLKelly]

I don't have enough experience with loaches or angels to provide advice. 

It is always good to have a quarantine tank anyways so that is a good idea.  If I had any spare media that I felt confident wouldn't bring you new issues I'd give it to you in a minute.

I think you should set up a qt tank the maracyn plus would kill the filter anyways and you'll be doing lots of water changes.  If you don't have test kits for ammonia and nitrite you should get some. 

My rainbows cleared up after a couple/few days but I treated them based on the instructions - one week I think - every other day with the maracyn+.  I am not sure how soon you could reintroduce them to the main tank though.  Since I treated the whole tank I haven't had to do this.  When you do I would acclimatize them back over a few hours to avoid shocking them and possibly risking a flareup.

If you need it I'm sure others will offer media if they have it.  I've noticed many generous offers to others a number of times.  This group is amazing like that.

[MikeM]

Will Maracyn-2 work?  I'd remembered reading about it for something, which I now can't recall, and had heard it was useful.  It was on sale for dirt cheap at SuperPet so I picked up a few boxes when I bought them out of ich medicine.  Thanks again, especially for the quick replies, there's always someone around to answer a question.  It's great

[KLKelly]

I am not sure    I have maracyn I and II and for some reason I went back to the store and bought Maracyn Plus???  I can't remember what the reason was.

[MikeM]

I'm sad to report I lost another angel.  Off to the fish store to get some Maracyn+, just in case.  No other fish showing signs of infection, everyone else ate, and no white marks to speak of.  I really hope it doesn't spread any further.  Thanks for all the support.

[dan2x38]

I'm sad to report I lost another angel.  Off to the fish store to get some Maracyn+, just in case.  No other fish showing signs of infection, everyone else ate, and no white marks to speak of.  I really hope it doesn't spread any further.  Thanks for all the support.

I just put a tank up 2 days ago. I bought the set-up from 'mseguin'. He gave me 2 sponges with it. I got both in the filter now the tank is almost cycled. If you dose with antibiotics I can give you one of the sponges. I will keep it in my filter until you need it if you want?