Sudden Death Syndrome - Update

[Soft1]

We seem to be suffering from what I'll (not so affectionately) call sudden death syndrome!

Over the last 4 days we're steadily losing fish!  Lost 2 neons and 2 cardinals over less than 12 hours on Wed.  Lost a very preggy guppy - one minute she was fine then an hour later floating (today).  Lost 1 platy and 2 mollies yesterday.  And, we've got 2 discus who are not looking 'good' - meaning they seem to be listless and hiding where just a couple of days ago they were very active (for discus).  Colours seem off and one of them barely eats - the other one in spits and spurts.

The only changes we made to our tanks was to start adding blackwater extract and Seachem Acid Buffer.  Our water is quite hard out of the tap - KH about 7 - we've only managed to get it down to about 4-5.  Haven't been able to test GH because we can't find a kit.  Our PH is bang on 7.0, Nitrate and Nitrite virtually nil, Amonia is 0.

Before using the Acid Buffer and Blackwater extract our tanks had been steady.  Nobody dying for over a month.  We did have one Discus who seemed to be behaving funny for a few days but all that went away and it seemed fine for a few days - now this.  (And yes, it's one of the one's who's fading)

The only other change was to include frozen, cubed beef heart.  I've stopped feeding that too.  Though I'd only fed it twice in a week.

On the up side, we do have some fry in both tanks (dunno where they've been hiding but from the size they're a week or two old) and they seem fine - growing and moving about well.

I've no idea what it could be.  We did about a 40% water change tonight and did not add the Acid Buffer.  We did add the Blackwater extract though.  I'm hoping it's related - but I'm thinking I may be barking up the wrong tree.

Any ideas?

[dan2x38]

I use acid buffer but beware you can get pH shifts often. I inject CO2 this lowers my pH. My tank is 6.6-6.8 but my tap water is 7.5. This would be a big shift. I researched and asked at the LFS and they suggested the acid-buffer since I grow plants I can't use phosphate based adjusters. What I was told is to fill a container with my water and aerate it. I had already been doing that so it was easy. At the beginning I tested my source water & tank water every time. After 6 months my readings were the same and therefore stable. This will help to stabilize or reduce any swings. When you do lower the pH it will swing back up no doubt. My maturing the water I get near ideal pH with no shifting it has already shifted. Maybe that is what is happening?

Good Luck hope this helps.

[babblefish1960]

This is sounding like a very serious situation for which there are so many variables it is really hard to pinpoint the causes without some empirical testing.

To begin, and here come the barrage of questions;
What do you use for a dechloriminator assuming you are using city water?

note that this is for chloramines and not just chlorine.

What have you noted with the discus and for how long, you mentioned it listing earlier, has this corrected itself?

Have you added any fish most recently, and what ones?

Have any of the fish been complaining of itches by flashing or scratching themselves on any part of the tank?

Adding the acid buffer usually tells me that there are pH swings going on throughout the tank, would you be able to test your pH several times to note any of these swings?

You mention that your nitrites are virtually nil, how virtual is nil, you really want nitrites at zero, it is a fish killer more than ammonium.

Are any of the fish changing physically, such as bloating or growths, tumors, or fins wasting away?

Are there red gills and operculum on any fish?

Are they breathing rapidly, or gasping at the surface?

Are the eyes of all of the fish involved clear and obviously used, or is there apparent blindness or cloudiness developing?

What we have here are several possibilities, it is affecting most of the fish throughout the entire tank, that means that you could have a waterborne parasitical infection slowly carving its way into each fish as their immune system weakens. It could be a bacterial infection that eats away at the inside some how, depending of course which bacter is involved. Lastly, and the first most likely cause could be something is wrong with your water, as this all points to a poisoning.  What I mean by this is that you could be introducing some element into the tank either through your hands, something near the tank, or from the water spout directly when you do water changes.

I know it may sound obvious, but the tools we use for our fish are never ever used for anything else, the bucket for example is never used to clean floors with the mop, or stirring a mixture for your latest wine kit., this is true also for the siphoning equipment and hoses.

I know this is not very helpful, but most of the sussing out of fish problems comes from detective work by observing the fish, really observing the fish, and believe it or not, writing a log of the progression to see a path as you change each facet of treatment and what you see, in the long run it will help you rule out each possibility.

[Soft1]

The good news is we didn't lose any fish over night. 

The bad news is one of the two not so happy Discus appears to be getting worse.  She (we've decided it's a she) appears to be using the plants to keep her boyant or else she's just resting.  When she moves, she moves freely - until she hits an area where there's more current - like near the bubble bar - then she's bobbed around, tossed by the current, tumbling and doing like somersaults and can't seem to get her balance.  After an episode like that, which last perhaps 10 - 20 seconds, she retreats to a plant and lies down - on her side.  No gasping for air...her gills barely move... then after about a half hour she gets up and starts moving around again.  She's not eating - or not that we have noticed. 

We've moved her and the other one to a separate tank yesterday.  A 10g with only them and a molly who seems to be doing not so good either.  We don't know what to treat so we simply added some "Lifeguard" and some salt and are watching them closely.  We also added salt to the big tanks....2 tsp each.

As to the questions....

What do you use for a dechloriminator assuming you are using city water?

We're on well water - no chlorine, etc.  The only thing we noted when testing tap water is our amonia is a bit high.  We're across from a cattle farm and suspect that's the source of the higher amonia.  So, we treat our water with AmQuel+.

What have you noted with the discus and for how long, you mentioned it listing earlier, has this corrected itself?

It was swimming sideways at approx a 45degree angel for about 4 days.  That stopped for about a week - then this happened.

Have any of the fish been complaining of itches by flashing or scratching themselves on any part of the tank?

Yes - she was two days ago (after she stopped listing).  Not often but from time to time against a leaf of a plant.  None of the others are.  No white spots on any fish, no red gills, no white film or cotton, etc.

Adding the acid buffer usually tells me that there are pH swings going on throughout the tank, would you be able to test your pH several times to note any of these swings?

We were at 8, 7.5, 6.0, up and down for about two weeks - no fish were in the discus tank at that point - we let it sit without fish for almost 3 weeks (55gal).  Then steady at 7.0 for almost a month. We added two Discus (alone) when it was at 7.0 for a week - no quarantine since they were alone in the tank.  We then moved some tetras and 3 clown loaches from our other established tank after 2 weeks, then 2 more discus and a bn pleco a week after that, and another discus 2 weeks later.  All of the new ones went into the quarantine tank for 2 weeks before adding them to the big tank.   

It's the first of our discus that appear to now be in distress.

We've been testing ph twice a day for the past month to make sure it's stable.  Fluctations started again this week after ading the Acid Buffer - up to 7.8 then down to 7.0 after the first day of using acid buffer, up again to 7.4, and then back down to 7.0.  We were told to keep it at around 7.4 - 7.8 for the discus and it was suggested that acid buffer would help do this.  It's lowest in the am, then raises during the day if we add the acid buffer.

Are any of the fish changing physically, such as bloating or growths, tumors, or fins wasting away?

We had a male guppy who was rather beaten up we suspect by a betta.  But it's fine now...tail fin was split and ripped but it's grown back completely.  We removed the betta and it's kept separately.  This was also not in the tank with the discus.  However, in the tank (also) 55 gal, we lost some of the tetras, molly and preggy guppy.  None of the fish in that tank have spots, tumours, etc., and they're all behaving like normal. 

From the other tank, we removed a molly who's fins seemed torn - not shortening just 'splitting' but not all the fins.  It's behaving like normal and not scratching against anything - no spots, but we removed it anyhow.

Have you added any fish most recently, and what ones?

In the non-discus tank, we added 2 angels and 4 neons.  They came from two different shops.  We bought them the same day and had them in quarantine together for 1 week (we needed the quarantine for the sick ones so we decided to move them earlier).  No spots, scratching or funky behaviour that we noted before we moved them.  The angels look great.  Though they are a bit larger than the ones we already had and we do notice that they are a bit 'aggressive' towards the other angels from time to time....we didn't notice nipping or fighting but they certainly chase them around the tank every now and again.  But this is all after the deathes and stuff started. 

You mention that your nitrites are virtually nil, how virtual is nil, you really want nitrites at zero, it is a fish killer more than ammonium.

Nitrite .25, nitrate 10 before water change and 5.0 after.  Ph is 7.2 today.  We've never had nitrates/nitrites at 0...even when the tanks were empty.  When they were first set up the tanks were at 30 and 40.  Could there be something else in our tap water that's causing this?  If so, we have a local fresh spring water where we can get water from the well (Wakefield - if you know it) - we could start carting water from there for our water changes.

Are they breathing rapidly, or gasping at the surface?

Are the eyes of all of the fish involved clear and obviously used, or is there apparent blindness or cloudiness developing?

Not gasping at the surface...dunno if their breathing is rapid or not but their mouths are always moving?  (Always have been too - so that's not new) Eyes are all bright and clear - even on the sick discus their eyes are clear.  The one is breathing very very slowly and the other is breathing as always...could be rapid but I'm not sure. 

We have 2 filters in the discus tank - a fluval 304 and a smaller fluval - sponge filter, submersible with a spray bar.  We added bubble bars to both tanks, since we raised the temp, to help with aeration.  The angel tank has an emperor 400 filter.  We changed the carbon in both about 2 weeks ago.

As for tools, etc., we have separate pails we use for water changes, etc.  One to remove and others to add.  We do water changes, approx. 20%, twice a week for the discus and about 30% every three weeks for the angels.  The quarantine 10g we change 50% weekly.  That tank is steady - ph7.0, nitrate and nitrite 0, amonia 0.  We use Amquel+ with every water change in all tanks.  No blackwater or acid buffer in the small tank.

Hands...yes, they were in the tank moving the rocks and plants.  Hands were washed before going in there... but generally, hands stay out of the tank.  Siphoning equipment we use the same ones on all tanks.  We smoke, but not over the tanks, all tanks are covered.  We use diffused lighting for the discus tank and often keep it off during the day as we have a bright room from the sun - they are not in direct sunlight however.

We also added a piece of driftwood over the weekend...and we didn't boil it first but soaked it in very hot water for a half hour.  We wanted the tannen in the tank...again, we were led to believe that the discus would appreciate this.

We did have a heating problem...  we had an old heater but could never get it up over 78 for prolonged periods of time.  We bought a new one and the temp to 80, then 82, etc. at 84 the listing started with the discus.  We lowered the temp to 80 and it appeared to be better.  Then on Friday the temp shot up to 90 - we didn't touch the heater.  We turned it off and the temp dropped to 80 overnight.  It stayed at 80 on Saturday and on Sunday we changed for another new heater and it's been steady 82 since then.

hmmmm....long post...sorry...dunno if there's anything here that gives anyone a clue to what's going on....I'm lost.  Watching the discus makes me think she won't make it through the day....sad.

We have meds such as ick cure, fungus treatments, parasite treatments, erithromycin, tetracycline, etc. but we haven't put any it since we don't know what to treat!  Should we try some antibiotics?

[babblefish1960]

A very thorough and helpful answer.

Enough of an answer that I believe I can help you. My gut tells me that you are still experiencing the development and establishment of the nitrogen cycle in your discus tank. Made a little worse by adding quite a load fairly quickly in something still raw. This surmise is reticent to the answers you gave and assumptions I have made.

The very worst case scenario, your well water is being poisoned with something that does not show up in your test kits and is affecting the fish before you, the canary in the mine as it were.

I suspect that your discus has some sort of worms, either intestinal or just in the gills.

This is one of the important factors in observing, it will take a while to determine what you are dealing with, as in this case, there may well be a few bad things that are happening, and not just one.

Keep us abreast of what transpires, as I could be totally off the mark as well.

Speaking of wells, you could have it tested for free for coliform bacteria, it would create nitrite, ammonia, and of course pathogens of all mannerisms that would make your fish expire.

I hope you can figure this out before you lose your discus, we all love discus.

[Soft1]

Thanks!

We'll try the parasite treatment in the quarantine tank and see if there are any changes.  At this point I can't see how it could hurt?

As for testing our well water....how does one go about getting that done?  any ideas?

Watching the rest of the fish in both big tanks they seem to be ok today.  My hubby tells me that he noticed the sick discus being picked on yesterday.  As he was watching each of the others would seem to push it away as it approached.  Some rather more aggressively chasing it away to the other end of the tank.  Hmmmmm...you think they know?

[babblefish1960]

Check the phone book for public health services, I think you will find water testing there, it is only free for coliform though.

Fish eat fish, and they don't often wait for them to be carrion, they start picking bits off as soon as they can, sorry, it is a tough world for fish.

[Soft1]

Thanks and ugh!  Yes, I kinda knew about the eating thingy but still ugh...

The sick folk are quiet...alive (yay) but quiet... turned off the bubblemaker so that she doesn't keep getting bounced around and she's moving more frequently... we're just gonna keep our fingers crossed that out of harms way (meaning stronger fish) she can pull through...or rather that they both can!

[sas]

Check the phone book for public health services, I think you will find water testing there, it is only free for coliform though.

Yes for sure call your local Health unit and they'll supply you with the container and info on how to collect a sample. We also are on well and test periodically.hth

[KLKelly]

I was told of a place where I can get my well water tested professionally for things above and beyond just health department stuff - like sulpher.  I think the non organic test was $160.  I haven't found the money for the testing yet.

My fish seem to be constantly fighting health issues no matter how happy their water is.  I have particles in the tank that I am told is most likely gassed out sulpher since the filter and cheap surface skimmer I set up turns the filter floss a dark grey.  I set up a trickle bin system in the basement that trickles water from one bin through a trickle tower to aerate and filter the water that I use for water changes.  With my well water - after trickling/bubbling the ph jumps to 8.3 or higher lately.  This part is confusing though - I think I read someplace that the ph before bubbling is the same as ph after bubbling to the fish.  Too confusing for me to look into.  I'll keep bubbling/trickling the water and envy those that can do straight from the tap water changes.

I have never had quick die offs except when I had delicate rainbows that I now keep on city water.

[Soft1]

A friend contacted me after reading some articles online, and is suggesting that even though there are no 'craters' or 'white marks' it could be Hole in the Head... does this sound plausible?

After taking a good (or as good as I can) look at the discus in the large tank I'm now seeing what appear to be 'lighter' colour markings - sort of roundish on the blue diamond discus.  Blue Boy (as we call him) is very very good at evading the net and hiding when you try to get close enough to really see what's going on. 

I haven't been able to thoroughly check him out... so, could they be something nasty or simply marks from where the bigger one was poking at him?   Blue Boy's movements are fine, his appetite is good, he's actually far more active now that the other two are out of the tank.  Could be coincidence I 'spose.

Our newest one, a Turquoise looks fine still. No markings, out and about, eating.  And, the black molly and loaches look good too.  Still no markings on them.  Could it be something that's only attacking the discus in the tank?

The other tank's doing ok now...no deaths today, no one looking pale or not eating properly.  So maybe it's settled down in there.

The two pigeon bloods, Big Red and Flame (yeah I know...naming fish...sheesh) have not changed.  They hide at the back of the tank behind the plants and are now spending most of their time sitting on the bottom.  Upright, but on the bottom.  Big Red does come forward now and again - it's eating a bit but Flame's getting paler and where the rims around the eyes were once all orange, the bottom edge is now white.

Dunno if that means anything...but... so we sit and watch and wait.  To be honest Flame looks so unhappy to me I wonder if I'm being fair "hoping" and "waiting".

[Soft1]

No one died last night....yippeeee!  The discus don't look good at all but if they're breathing and alive I'll keep hoping.

We gave the API's General Cure/Treatment...  since we don't know what to treat we'll try that for now.  And, though they are quiet and resting on the bottom...when I approach the tank they both move a bit and come forward.  Neither one is eating at the moment...so, we'll be thankful for small stuff and wait and see.

**************

Ok, scrub that... they didn't die last night but since posting this about 25 mins later we lost Flame.  She was floating and this time not breathing...   I'm hoping that we don't lose Big Red too.

[Soft1]

Our remaining pigeon blood made it through the night.  Not eating and fins/tail now seem a bit split - not ragged.  Her eyes also look a bit bulging but clear and she's using them.  She's swimming more though.  So, we'll watch.

Angel tank - lost another tetra over night, and the pregnant sword tail has a 'growth'.  It looks like a pimple that hasn't popped yet.  Large enough white protrusion to see, no redness, no tail, nothing that matches any info I've found on worms.  She seems fine otherwise - it popped up overnight so she's now in the quarantine tank.

Discus tank appears to be 'stable' - no more sick discus or anything else in that tank. 

We're hoping whatever it was/is is slowing down now.