Discuss.... to be or not to be

[Kats]

Hi guys!!!  OK, another "coup de coeur"...  I was at Big Al's yesterday and saw some very pretty Discuss....  I get all sort of mixed information from the net.... can you guys share your discuss experiences with me?  Not sure I'd put them in my 46G tank with the angels but, again.... I've been known to change my mind (every few minutes!! )

Are they easy to maintain?  Mixed reviews on that too...  would it be suggested in a 46G tank or should I keep them on my wanted list for the day when we get a bigger tank?

Any tidbit you could provide would be great!!

Thanks
Kats

[BigDaddy]

If your 46 is for angels, then discus are a no no

Discus like lots and lots of clean water to themselves.  Similar rules to angels, around 10 gallons per fish...  Many people say not to mix angels and discus in the same tank due to parasite problems the angels could introduce to the discus, but never having kept the two together myself, I can't firm that up.

Discus like big, tall tanks.  Think 55 gallons and higher.  I kept 5 medium and full sized discus in a 65 originally, and have now moved them to a 75.

Discus aren't hard to keep if you do one thing, don't change anything.  Contrary to popular belief, they don't need exceptionally low pH values.  They just like the same pH, the same temp and the same routine for water changes.  Consistency is the key to being a successful discus keeper.

[succinctfish]

Discus are beautiful fish, I enjoy having them, but definitely they need space to move and as they mature they get very large.  I agree with BigDaddy that they need consistency in their water parameters, and like your angelfish need a variety of food including frozen and they love live food.  You can grow them out in a smaller tank, by smaller I mean the 46 gallon. 
You need to plan for a big tank if you want them to be healthy and happy.  Part of the wonder of fish is watching them move through the water, it's amazing how fast both angelfish and discus are, but if you have them in a small tank, you will never see that, it's like standing in an elevator, but the door never opens.  We have 5 in a 90 gallon, and I wish we had the room to put them in a bigger tank, after all, once you factor in aquascaping like driftwood and plants, the space inside the tank does decrease.  In terms of putting angelfish and discus together, they are in the same waters in the wild, but there's a lot more room there.  Angelfish are much faster grabbing for the food than discus, and this will stress the discus, and probably you as you try to ensure the discus eat.  Once again you would need a very large tank for this to be successful long term.  Do you notice a theme here?  You, like many of us, having fallen for the big cichlids.  If you want to stay with smaller tanks, think about your second love, the bolivian ram, or apisotgrammas are colourful, personable and have nice spawning behaviour.  As a last resort, start re-arranging your furniture, or put your kids in loft beds so that you can stick a tank under their beds. 

[beowulf]

Just a counterpoint to what has been said so far.  My brother currently has (for the last 6 months++) had 4 discuss and a couple of angels with about a dozen cardinals in a 40 gallon tank.  They had done find with no dieoffs.  He is getting ready to move them to a 65g tank and in the long run I think he is thinking 100+g.  So the important thing is to plan for the future with regards to the size of the tanks etc.  I also agree that consistant water parameters is the most important thing.

The discuss started maybe a little larger then a toonie and are now larger then a drink coaster, same with the angels.

[busdriver]

I started buying discus about six months ago and they kept dieing on me, I think I bought about nine of them in total, five died and four of them are still alive, myself, if I was going to start all over again I would stay with the fish I started with, oscars, very intelligent, more like a puppy, they actually recognize the person that feeds them, in fact, I'm trying to decide how I can unload a whole bunch of fish without my wife killing me. The aquarium the four discus are in is a 150 gallon.

[Aquaviewer]

Ditto what BD said.

I would add that discus like to be in groups and I would not get anything less than 4, particularly if they are juveniles.  This is a tough decision seeing as though 4 discus can run you $100+ depending on the strain.  

In general (I realize there are exceptions) individuals or small groups (2 or 3) tend to get stressed and die, either from the stress or resulting disease (particularly prevalent in juveniles).  Alternatively or in conjunction with, one fish typically becomes dominant if constantly harassing the other one or two, increasing their stress.  In my limited experience I have found that four or more provides the appropriate level of comfort and distributes the dominant fishes harassment so no one fish is constantly being bullied (there will always be some level of squabbling among the group).

[sniggir]

If you are getting scared off, by the tank requirments of some of the the SA cichlids you may want to look into the africian's depending on what you chose you can have a beautiful tank at that size... alot of people love the colors of the malawi cichlids but my self I much prefer the Tangaynikan's.... just a thought

[Soft1]

We've been having so-so luck with our Discus too.  Many claim they are more difficult to keep and keep happy...such has been our experience.  Having said that, we're not gonna give up on them!

We had six and are now at 5 - we lost one Pigeon Blood juvie and the other one's hanging on.  It's getting its strength back from what ever the problem was and is eating again - fins have healed and so it's back into the main tank it goes.  Been a couple of days and it's not being picked on, still eating and moving about freely....phew

When we started having trouble we noticed our water was wayyyyy harder than we thought - so in goes the softening pillow, add some black water extract, raise the ph to 7.8 and the temp to 83F and life seems to be good now.  So, I dunno 'bout folks saying just treat them like any other FW fish...it didn't work for us!

[BigDaddy]

Soft.. if you raised the temp to 83, that might be the problem.  Discus should typically be kept in 84 to 88 degree water.

[dan2x38]

Soft.. if you raised the temp to 83, that might be the problem.  Discus should typically be kept in 84 to 88 degree water.

Wow that's high... to maintain would recommend 2 smaller heaters instead of one large one? What is the ideal pH?

[BigDaddy]

No, you don't need two heaters per say.  You just need heaters able to bring up from ambient room temp.  Depends on ambient temp and the size of the tank.  A 250W manages my 75 gallon at 86 quite easily.

There is no ideal pH... just a steady pH.

[Aquaviewer]

Wow that's high... to maintain would recommend 2 smaller heaters instead of one large one? What is the ideal pH?

Chronic exposure to cool water (relatively speaking for discus) would be a cause of stress leading to illness. With regards to number of heaters it would be a mater of choice.  Some argue it is best to have two heaters in the event one fails.  In long tanks two heaters are a good choice to keep temp stable across the length of the tank, especially when keeping things warmer than most typical setups.  I use two 250s in a 6' tank to keep temp on 30C without either heater having to work too hard.  

As mentioned before a specific pH is not as critical as stability, although keeping things on the acidic side of neutral keeps discus pretty happy.

[Soft1]

84 - 88....ok, well with the warm weather this week it's slowly been rising and it's now at 84.5. 

Our heater is brand new - we started with a used one and tossed it once the tank was ready for fish, then put in a new one that wouldn't stay stable (over 24 hrs it went from 80 - 90 then back down to 82) and that's when the trouble really started!  (No surprise really that one of the Discus got upset with this)

We bought another new one 250w and it seems to be stable - our digital thermometer is at the opposite end of the tank from the heater.  After reading your posts I'm wondering if it's 83 at that end how high is it closer to the heater?  So, today, we try a 2nd thermometer!

In the winter our room can get quite cool...enough for us to wear light sweaters in the house - we're in the country and no central heating...so, we may go with two heaters in the cooler (ok cold) months.

For the ph issue... we've got hard water (15 out of the tap) and our amonia out of the tap is around .5 - ph is about 6.5 too.  So we've started using Acid Buffer, something to bring the PH to around 7.5 - 8.0 (the books I have indicated they prefer that - but now I'm wondering if leaving it at 6.5 - 7.0 is ok?), and something to lower the amonia as well. 

The not sick Discus seem to be happily enjoying the tank!  The sick one we had moved to quarantine for about 2 weeks we now moved back - after 3 days we've taken it out again as it is being picked on endlessly - skinny and not eating as well - it sticks to one corner of the tank near the surface and when it does swim it likes to rub (quickly) against plants and rocks...so, back in quarantine with meds it is.  Any suggestions?

[BigDaddy]

Don't bother with buffers.  Please let us know which books recommend keeping discus between 7.5 and 8.0.... we will be sure to avoid them! 

[SuperT]

I think the last time I checked my ph on the discus tank it was 6.5 - 6.8 range.  The ph of the tap water is over 9 and settles nice back to the high 6 range.  I've never worried about it, even during water changes.  I just take the old water out and put the new (straight from the tap) in.  I've also changed over to prime (since its cheaper in the long run).  We also keep the water warmer 86 - 88 range.

I would recommend you don't play with the chemistry of your water.  Better to let them get used to what you've got or can supply them with.

Terry

[Soft1]

Please let us know which books recommend keeping discus between 7.5 and 8.0....

Ooopsss....my bad...that should read 6.5 - 7.0.  My hubby read my post and prompty correct me.  And, our ph is between 6.8 - 7.0.

We've switched over to Prime as well.... and raised the temp to 85 mark.

[normc]

I think the last time I checked my ph on the discus tank it was 6.5 - 6.8 range.  The ph of the tap water is over 9 and settles nice back to the high 6 range.  I've never worried about it, even during water changes.  I just take the old water out and put the new (straight from the tap) in.  I've also changed over to prime (since its cheaper in the long run).  We also keep the water warmer 86 - 88 range.

I would recommend you don't play with the chemistry of your water.  Better to let them get used to what you've got or can supply them with.

Terry

I agree with this 100% I don't do any thing except weekly water changes (when I remember) of about 15% straight from the tape. I adjust with the hot and cold taps using my hand to judge the temp. People do way to much fiddling with parameters 

[SuperT]

It's good to know I'm not the only one using the finger thermometer. 

Terry

[clouxles]

Everything in this thread is good advice... here's some from me.

I have 11 Discus in a 150 gallon and I never do my water changes directly form the tap... I used to but my PH used to fluctuate more than a point, sometimes 2 (winter) as the water in the tank was so soft. This fluctuation caused a lot of stress to the point that in the winter fins were becoming damaged and I lost a number of fish. After finding two 57.5 gallon barrels (food grade) I am able to prepare my water in advance,at least 24 hours. I add a buffer  (call it sanity), just baking soda to raise the KH. My tanks (Discus and Stingray) get huge water changes twice a week with about a .2 fluctuation in PH and since the water is room temp about a 4-6 degree F drop in water temp, typically kept at 84 F.

The fish seem quite content. I have not had to treat for parasites in months, which was not the case prior to adopting this practice. Of course I have had a few mods done in the basement to make it as easy as possible to do this. Like, new hose connections, direct drain etc. No buckets no mess...Well except when I am filling buckets and start doing something else... 

The Discus are amazing fish and well worth the extra work. Good Luck!