The wierd footprint tank strikes again

[Pink Punisher]

Ok so as some of you read, i was going to place a Red Finned Wolf Fish in my 22 gallon that has the foot print of a 33 gallon. Ive decided not to put in the wolf and im thinking of making it a cichlid/community tank, my cichlid/community i mean maybe a few apisto's (spelling?) 2 platies and possibly 5 danois. The platies and danois are a for sure because i already have them and there in there now lol. Now i could always just put the danois and the platies in a 10 gallon and then make it a apisto tank, i really like the look of them and i also like the look of tiger barbs so id like to throw in a school of them, how many apisto's could i fit in? Where do they orginate from? any info on them would be great as well.

Also if you were wondering, the measurments are 36"x12"x12"

Thanks,
Spence

[Pink Punisher]

One more thing, is there anyway i could put german/bolivia rams in with a apisto? Im not sure which ram i would put in but there pretty guys and id love a tank with both of them if possible.

Spencer

[BigDaddy]

Apistogramma are native to South America and prefer soft acidic water (some more so than others).  The are small, so you can get them in "smallish" tanks, but they are still cichlids and behave as such.

The general rule with most apistos is that a single male needs 2 square feet of territory, and females need a square foot each.  The females territories can be within the males, so in theory a 24 x 12 tank could house 1 male and 2 females (very general terms here, some apistos need less space, some need more, also depends on the amount of cover in the tank).

Yes you can mix apistos and rams.  I have a 75 gallon planted tank that has a trio of German Blue Rams as well as two male a. agassizi.

A good starter apisto is apistogramma cacatuoides.  They are a pretty hardy apisto that can thrive in even somewhat harder water.  They have a pretty peaceful temperament overall and do well in a community.

If it is your first shot at dwarf cichlids, I would start with one (either the apistos or the rams) and then later on introduce another.  You may find by the time you are ready for the second species, that you already have a dedicated tank laid out for them 

[Pink Punisher]

Yes i was going to say i like the look of the apistogramma cacatuoides the most. Do they have to be in pairs/trois? Im thinking a pair of each in the tank would be nice, Id think im gonna end up with a bunch of babies then though wont i? LOL lucky for me i have 2 spare 10 gallons so i can put the zebra's/platties in that and raise the fry in the 10 gallon? or do they take care of there own babies like most cichlids?

Spencer

[Pink Punisher]

The more i think about it, I think ill just set it up as a SA biotope with the Apisto c. a school of cories and maybe some type of SA tetra/rasbora.

[fischkopp]

If you are just starting with apistos, then A. cacatuoides is the best choice for you. And you are right: they are just stunning! 

Let me add to BD very comprehensive post: as territorial fish apistos need some landmarks and lots of hiding spaces in the tank. So you want to plant it as heavy as you can, add driftwood and/or rocks to provide places to hide. You want to cut down the line of sight as good as you can. You should also build some caves as apistos are cave breeders. You can do it with wood & rock, a coconut works great, a little clay pot too.

In a 36"x12" foot print you may get away with a trio (1 male, 2 females). But you should start with jus a pair as it can become harsh for one of the females, especially if the other one guards fry. Female apistos are very, VERY protective when guarding fry and dont hesitate to attack even mature angels. So you dont have to do to much when apsitos breed: they will take care of themselve

Apistos will do well with tetras and rasbora and also with corys. DOnt add too many corys as its said that they are egg scatterer. So if there are too many, then the female is has no chance. Avoid barbs, i find them anoying (personal opinion) and the tend to snack on other fish fins. Zebras and platies should be fie too.

As BD said: start with a pair of A. cacatuoides, and then, later maybe add some german blue rams. Bolivian rams need more space, another pair of apistos is very risky and may cause too much aggression. But you still have two 10g in spare ...

[BigDaddy]

I've kept over a dozen apistos in a 23 gallon 36 x 12 tank before... but again until you've kept apistos a while and understand their behaviours and aggression levels, start slow.

[fischkopp]

I've kept over a dozen apistos in a 23 gallon 36 x 12 tank before... but again until you've kept apistos a while and understand their behaviours and aggression levels, start slow.

Yeah, so do I But as you said, a pair is a good start to learn about apistos. And anything between a pair and half a dozen apistos may cause trouble

[Pink Punisher]

Hey guys, for the tank i no what i want to do. The tank will be a pair or trio of Apisto. C. and they will have 4-5 cory's and a school of either, Cardinal, Black Neon, Serpea or Red Phantom Tetra's not all of them. How big of a school do you think i could have? 5-6? or would that be to many?

For decorations i was gonna do a few pieces of driftwood and a bit of rockwork and a bunch of java fern, java moss, anubias and maybe amazon sword. About lighting, do the apisto's have any favourite amount of light or do they just not care? like do they prefer dim or bright, etc. Its just to help me with deco  Thats all i can think of right now so ill tell yeah if anythings pops up.

Spencer

[fischkopp]

A school of 6 tetras will be just fine, you could almost double it - or just take the middle like 9. I keep a pair of apistos with a school of 11 in 20g with no problems, other than that the tetras are MUCH faster then the apistos when it is feeding time.

Apistos dont have any preferences to light (other then maybe not too bright), just provide them with lots of hiding places and shady spots (from plants, wood ...) and they will be happy. Only reason to keep it a bit darker (or use higher light temperature bulbs like 18k) is that they will show off their color better.

[Pink Punisher]

Oh thats even better! 9-11 Tetras,Pair/Trio of Apisto's and 5 Cories. I think that will give the tank alot of movement when the Apistos are hiding/protecting there eggs, IF they breed. Now one question before i get my hopes up to much....Where can i get a pair/trio of good quality (not wild caught prefferably) Apisto's and do you think you guys could give me a price estimate for a pair/trio? For the softer water and stuff i was thinking of adding some of that SA Trace liquid to the tank to make it more SA, supposevly it gives some types of minerals or something into to the water to make it like SA water? true? Do you think its worth it or should i just stay with my driftwood and once that dies down on giving me softer water, peat moss? 

Thanks,
Spencer

[fischkopp]

Never heard of "SA trace liquid" Kind of weird, as the Amazonas rivers in the rainforest barely have any traces ... safe your money, driftwood is fine and peat works like a charm to soften the water and lower the pH, but you must like the brownish tint. But reallY: dont care too much about the water, A. cacatuoides are faily adjustable and even breed at a pH of 8.

If you setup your tank, add the fish slowly. Start with a small school of tetras, if you later think they look lost you can still add more. The price for A. cacatuoides can vary a lot, from $8 each for quite plain wild caughts upto $20+ for tripple/double reds.

[BigDaddy]

I think you are referring to things like Seachem's "South American Buffer" or things like black water extract.  Absolutely not needed and in fact can be counterproductive as what breeding apistos like is water with low TDS (total dissolved solids).

Driftwood will be enough to drop your pH to a slight acid (unless you have crazy hard water) and peat moss will also do the same and give the water a tea brown look that is very similar to what you'd find them in.

What are the pH, kH and gH of your tap water?

[Julie]

As per location, hard mineral laden sulphur with iron.  What worked for me was peat in my ac for a couple of days, or if fish too sensitive for this slow change (my discus were not) set up a bucket/small tank etc with ac.
Are you breeding your fish? 

[Pink Punisher]

Are you breeding your fish? 

I'm not going to try and breed them but if they do ill try my best to keep them alive, maybe later on.

I think you are referring to things like Seachem's "South American Buffer" or things like black water extract.  Absolutely not needed and in fact can be counterproductive as what breeding apistos like is water with low TDS (total dissolved solids).

Yes that was the stuff i was referring to.

What are the pH, kH and gH of your tap water?

I need to pick up another one because my other got destroyed from a curious Bearded Dragon, don't ask how because I'm not to sure either he just some how managed to break it

And yes i actually like the look on the tinted water more then the clear, it looks more natural and is alot better looking so no problem for me there. Will the peat moss give me a brown tint as well or just the driftwood? Hopefully the peat moss will keep the tint going when the driftwood finally gives out on me. About the tetras i listed, which one is the best schooler? I doubt thats a word but i think you all should understand what i ment

Spence

[fischkopp]

Will the peat moss give me a brown tint as well or just the driftwood? Hopefully the peat moss will keep the tint going when the driftwood finally gives out on me.

Both driftwood and peat will affect the water in the same (or at least very similar) way, they will release tannins (makes the tint) and humic acids (softens water and drops pH). If you get a new piece of driftwood it will do it quite strong, but after a while it will stabilize at a lower intensity for tinting water and releasing humic acids. Thats the time where you can add fresh peat to your filter to up the tannins and acids a bit.

About the tetras i listed, which one is the best schooler?

All tetras school, but if the are relaxed and bored they wont. Means they have to be threatened by something to find back together into the school. Thats how they protect themselves in nature against their enemies/predators.