GFCI?

[RoxyDog]

I think that's what it's called.  How many people actually have their tanks on one of these?  Aren't these normally only on outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, or am I thinking of the wrong thing?

[sdivell]

"Ground Fault Circuit interupter" - these are kind of a novelty toy if anyone saw the mythbusters episode on these things.

Basically if any electrical device drops into water it'll surge and kill the circuit right away no matter what.  That being said they are easily reseatable and replaceable in the case of a fault. 

[RoxyDog]

Do *you* bother to put your tank(s) on one?  And is one really needed? 

[babblefish1960]

I have tended to avoid using these silly things other than where they are required by code.  They are more sensitive to surges, such as a mass of aquarium lighting coming on, and quite honestly, the breaker in the panel works just fine as required by code as well.  Some folks insist on them for their own protection where aquariums are concerned, but myself, I found them unreliable, a little spray of water while you're out, and pfft, no electricity for the system.  Both Mila and Rockgarden have sad stories about what happens when you are away for the weekend or the like and the GFCI decides it wants a holiday too.  Don't be silly about it, put drip loops in all your cords before plugging them in, but they really aren't necessary if you are reasonable in your precautions, in my experience and opinion.

[sdivell]

both of my tanks are on standard timer power bars and plugged straight into a standard house circuit.

GFCI's are recommended as double surge protection at the outlet is always a good idea and may prevent a fire from any surges.  But all modern electrical panels have tripable breakers in them that will trip if any of our equipment gets into water trouble.

[RoxyDog]

So my 7 year old house won't burn down if water gets into my non-waterproof end caps? 

[sdivell]

hows this for an answer.

Probably not!  but a GFCI will not change the outcome.

if that happens there will be a surge.... the surge will cause the breaker in the basement to trip and the circuit will go dead.. all with in a fraction of a second.

Samething will happen if you have GFCI.. the GFCI will trip and the circuit will go dead.  But as babble said these tend to be a lot more sensitive.

[RoxyDog]

The reason I ask is it seems like some people overprotect their tanks, while I sort of, well, don't.  I wondered what the "norm" is.  And I don't mean normc.   

[Faerin]

I think a lot of it has to do with the size and complexity of your setup. For someone with a 30 gallon guppy tank in their bedroom, it's probably more hassle than it's worth. But if you're running for instance a large reef tank, a few GFCIs can really add some piece of mind. I have all the major components of my 180g reef on GFCIs for protection (obviously), but also to ensure that one piece of equipment shorting out isn't going to affect the rest of the setup. If my halides short out for some reason, the pumps/heaters/skimmer are still going to be running and everything will be ok (and I have accidentally tested this once or twice )... if they were to blow a circuit breaker instead, it could end up crashing the tank.

[Shrimpy]

There's a big difference between a GFCI and a panel breaker. Taken from "Howstuffworks.com" http://home.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm

How does a GFCI outlet work?


That outlet is called a ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI). It's there to protect people from electrical shock, so it is completely different from a fuse.

The question on appliance plugs talks about fuses. The idea behind a fuse is to protect a house from an electrical fire. If the hot wire were to accidentally touch the neutral wire for some reason (say, because a mouse chews through the insulation, or someone drives a nail through the wire while hanging a picture, or the vacuum cleaner sucks up an outlet cord and cuts it), an incredible amount of current will flow through the circuit and start heating it up like one of the coils in a toaster. The fuse heats up faster than the wire and burns out before the wire can start a fire.

A GFCI is much more subtle. When you look at a normal 120-volt outlet in the United States, there are two vertical slots and then a round hole centered below them. The left slot is slightly larger than the right. The left slot is called "neutral," the right slot is called "hot" and the hole below them is called "ground." If an appliance is working properly, all electricity that the appliance uses will flow from hot to neutral. A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as small as 4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a second.

So let's say you are outside with your power drill and it is raining. You are standing on the ground, and since the drill is wet there is a path from the hot wire inside the drill through you to ground (see How Power Distribution Grids Work for details on grounding). If electricity flows from hot to ground through you, it could be fatal. The GFCI can sense the current flowing through you because not all of the current is flowing from hot to neutral as it expects -- some of it is flowing through you to ground. As soon as the GFCI senses that, it trips the circuit and cuts off the electricity.

[mdugly]

IMO, yall crazy not to have them! 

I saw a myth busters (years ago), where they threw a toaster into a full bath tub with a dummy.
That episode 'proved' they re-act much faster than breaker, and would indeed prevent electrocution.
(...and salt water is more conductive than fresh!)

AFAIK, a fuse is there to protect the wires from overheating and prevent fire.
Nothing to due with preventing electrocution...

GFCI is used to detect a sudden increase in load, specially to prevent electrocution.
For aquariums, works best used with a grounding-probe...

Don't (potentially) overload the circuit and shouldn't have any 'sensitivity' issues (during power flap).

It would be real sad news to hear an accident turn fatal.
Its not about 'overprotecting your tank', its about protecting you and yours...

Please do a bit more research before dismissing the need for them...and when in doubt, err on the side of caution.

-mike

[sdivell]

There's a big difference between a GFCI and a panel breaker. Taken from "Howstuffworks.com" http://home.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm

How does a GFCI outlet work?


That outlet is called a ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI). It's there to protect people from electrical shock, so it is completely different from a fuse.

The question on appliance plugs talks about fuses. The idea behind a fuse is to protect a house from an electrical fire. If the hot wire were to accidentally touch the neutral wire for some reason (say, because a mouse chews through the insulation, or someone drives a nail through the wire while hanging a picture, or the vacuum cleaner sucks up an outlet cord and cuts it), an incredible amount of current will flow through the circuit and start heating it up like one of the coils in a toaster. The fuse heats up faster than the wire and burns out before the wire can start a fire.

A GFCI is much more subtle. When you look at a normal 120-volt outlet in the United States, there are two vertical slots and then a round hole centered below them. The left slot is slightly larger than the right. The left slot is called "neutral," the right slot is called "hot" and the hole below them is called "ground." If an appliance is working properly, all electricity that the appliance uses will flow from hot to neutral. A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as small as 4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a second.

So let's say you are outside with your power drill and it is raining. You are standing on the ground, and since the drill is wet there is a path from the hot wire inside the drill through you to ground (see How Power Distribution Grids Work for details on grounding). If electricity flows from hot to ground through you, it could be fatal. The GFCI can sense the current flowing through you because not all of the current is flowing from hot to neutral as it expects -- some of it is flowing through you to ground. As soon as the GFCI senses that, it trips the circuit and cuts off the electricity.

Fuses are not used in modern houses anymore.  They have all switched to breakers.  Modern breakers work on the same principal as GFCI.  If they detect a change in flow from a short it will trip and shut off power to the circuit.  Fuses haven't been used in houses sicne before i was born.
If your house was built before..lets say 1980 it'll have fuses and in that case YES you should have GFCI's on your tank outlets.  but for any modern house it is overkill and as has already been stated it may trip because of a timer turning on a light or a pump and cause your tank to go without power until you notice it triped.

The mythbusters episode in question proved that they had to use old fashioned glass fuses to kill someone in a bathtub.. modern technologies wouldnt allow enough amperage to flow to kill someone.

Also note that voltage doesnt kill.. its the amps that does.

[audioslave_36]

Jen unless you completely submerge your light in your tank, the chances of any problems are pretty slim. A florescent light only has one contact on each end, so splashing it with water is very unlikely to do any harm at all.

Dave

[normc]

I have GFI's on two of my tanks. Also my house was built in 1972 and it has breakers not fuses.

[RoxyDog]

I'm actually not too worried about *my* house per say, was just wondering.   I do have breakers, not fuses, but some of the outlets also have the little black and red buttons (the GFCIs?) on them.  Say, in the bathroom.  Why bother?

[sdivell]

its now in the electrical code that they must be installed in any outlet a certain distance from a water source.  IE. shower, sink...etc.

I blame hippies.

[Shrimpy]

Also note that voltage doesnt kill.. its the amps that does.

Yes I am quite aware of that however please note:

GFCI's are designed to shut power off if there is a very small leak of electricity (a ground fault) which ordinary outlets wouldn't notice. Normal outlets are shut off by a fuse or breaker if more than 15 amps flows. This prevents fires, but since people can be killed by 1 amp or less, fuses may not protect people from shock. GFCI's shut off power if a leak as small as .005 amp occurs.

You can believe Mythbusters if you want, but they have proven themselves wrong in the past also.

[Funkmotor]

I blame hippies.

While you're at it, blame all the people that get killed by electricity in their home every year.  I can't find any reliable stats, but it seems 411 people died in home electrocutions in the USA in 2001, so maybe a few dozen in Canada annually.  I know I've taken a couple of powerful shocks in my life, and it's no fun.

If I'm about to stick my hand into a large tank of very conductive salt water, I want to be very sure that it isn't going to kill me.

It is completely true that GFCI's are "trippy" and tend to flip when a normal breaker would not.  However, if it happens a lot for you either the GFCI is faulty or there is a current leak somewhere...so you should be checking things if this is the case.

The solution to the GFCI that trips over the weekend is to use more than one of them.  You wire a few of them up on common rails so that the tripping of one won't trip them all (if you wire them together they'll all trip together) and then you plug your gear into them such that if any one or two of them were to trip the tank would stay alive.  If you happen to have a problem with something on one of the GFCI's, then - theoretically - that GFCI would trip when your hand went into the tank and the rest would not.

Nobody ever said being safe was easy, and my view is that if the technology is available to save me from injury or death then I'm a fool not to use it.  It only takes one thing to fail/leak/break to put current into the water.

As an aside (and I don't know if it's required by code), but our house in Sydney had a GFCI installed on the main house circuit.  I believe everything other than the stove and oven (so all plugs and lights) were wired through it.  My son got a pair of wire cutters one day and started chopping things.  If it were not for that device tripping the power, he could have been injured or killed.  So, though I was mad that he had cut through 20+ electrical cords, I was also very relieved that he was not hurt.  He told me he didn't feel a thing.  Since we came back to Canada, he was plugging something in a while back and his finger slipped onto the plug and he got a small jolt (he was fine), so I have seen the difference.

[darkdep]

When I built my fishwall, I ran a new circuit from my electrical panel to power it.  Misunderstanding GFCI's at the time, I bought one for every outlet.  Then discovered that, when outlets are installed in series, all outlets past the GFCI are essentially GFCI protected as well.  So I installed one and let the other outlets series off of it.

GFCI's, when installed, are sensitive to being wired properly.  When I first did it, I wired the "line" to the "load" terminals by accident (on a typical outlet, it doesn't really matter) and the thing just tripped constantly...as in, I couldn't get it to stay untripped.  Reversed the wiring and all was good.  I've never had it trip "just because".

Another option to consider is a GFCI breaker.  You can replace a standard breaker with a GFCI breaker and everything past it is protected.  IMHO this is technically a better way to go, but of course that means messing with your panel which is much more intimidating than messing with an outlet.

I've never had a problem with my GFCI's being trippy.  They make me feel better.

And I can tell you you'll never have a problem with your lights being on non-waterproof endcaps. 

[Jim]

Just to clarify, fuses will still protect you just as much as a new age 15A magnetic breaker. The fuses just may take a few seconds to trip because the metal has to melt in them. But they will not trip if you get a shock from them.