Turtles and their care

[wu-gwei]

Not to discourage this sale, but generally the sale of redeared sliders (RES) is not a good thing. RES live for over 30 years and reach 7-10" straight carapace length. They are an aggressive species of turtle when they get over 4-5" and will fight with other turtles and chomp your fish. There are so many unwanted RES and it is a problem is all major urban areas in the world b/c when they get too big, they are dumped into the local waterways where they dominate the local species. The reason Ottawa has not faved the prpblem yet is b/c the sale of turtles was not allowed, but recently pet shops are carrying them. I have removed a couple from Ottawa and they do quite well in the winter. In a few years, you'll hear a whole lot more about unwanted RES. You want a preview, just ask Little Ray's Reptile Zoo. They've got a few for adopt or call Turtle SHELL in east end Ottawa. I used to take in unwanted RES and rehome them, but there's just too many for me to do.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I just wanted inform people in the hobby to be aware of the situation with RES, cooters, yellewbelly sliders, etc. Most of these cute little turtles sold in the hobby get too big and not suitable pets for everyone.

The the price for this ad is pretty much for the equipment, and the turtles are thrown in. RES cost about $30 retail each and Big Als unfortunately carries them right now. I was really disappointed when they started that practice.


Cheers,
JJ

[irene]

A while back BA's had a reeves turtle, which aparrantly maxes out at about 4".  Seems like a much better choice for a pet. Unfortunately the price was $150.

Irene

[Fishnut]

Agreed.  This topic was discussed at length in this thread:

http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=18095.0

Hopefully the seller of the sliders will be careful that the turtles don't end up in the hands of someone who is not knowledgeable or someone who is selfish and doesn't care about the needs of the turtles. 

The problem really stems from the fact that these creatures are available in pet shops and at such a tiny size.  Workers sometimes don't give the right information and customers sometimes don't listen or care.  Money talks unfortunately.  I wish they hadn't lifted the ban on selling turtles. 

I think people should pay a lot for them.  $150 is on the high side, but it prevents all the idiots from getting one, sticking it in a small tank, getting fed up and letting it go in the nearest river when it grows too big and gets too smelly.  If someone wants a turtle badly enough to spend $150, they're going to research it and make sure they get the best for the turtle.  You'd think that people would save the money if they found out that the turtle grows big and stinks without an over sized filtration system.

[littlelil]

RES cost about $30 retail each

Only $10ea or 3/$25 in Toronto! It's makes me sick to see the poor little guys in Pet World (St. Laurent & Bayshore). THe other day i saw one who's shell was DENTED IN! I'd do anything to see that store shut down.

[cora]

.... I wanted to say something here.. the itch was strong!! but then I realized I cant so I had to delete it poopy 

[wu-gwei]

Irene: reeves are a good species to keep as a pet, but don't be fooled, males get at least 5-7", and females 7-8", depending on the sub-species. The best small species of turtles are muds and musks (Kinosternidae), which stay under 5-6", depending on species when full grown and these turtles can be kept with fish since they are considered bottom-walkers and are not adept at swimming.

Fishnut: I brought this up originally in the classifieds, since people often see the cute little turtles and don't realise the huge responsibility they're undertaking. I always discourage people to keep turtles since it is like getting married to it and longer!

$150 is not so high... I have few turtles worth $5-700. I think charging turtles over $100 would discourage impulse buys. However, sliders and cooters, the most common turtles for sale, are bred by the millions on turtle farms in Lousiana and cost more to ship than they're worth. In the US, they cost $5 or less. The thing is that under Canadian law (CFIA), turtles cannot be imported for commercial purposes. So, it is safe to say pretty much all hatchlings you see in Canadian pet stores are smuggled in.

Littlelil: don't support these stores and don't buy a RES! I guess I always liked BA and I was disappointed to see the Kanata BA choose profits over being responsible selling animals. BA from Vancouver to Toronto always carried turtles and once again the price of the turtle is minute compared to the tanks, filters, deorations and etc., needed to keep them. That is where the store makes the money.



Cheers,
JJ

[Fishnut]

Hahahaha...I too want to say something Cora.  I mean it's just screaming "SAY SOMETHING BECAUSE IT'S SO OBVIOUS!" but I will resist.  I like to pick my battles and since I had this battle in the link I posted and hit some ridiculously dense matter, I'll resist.  Oops...lets see if that gets edited

[kahlua]

Hi All; I could not help but respond to this topic. In my opinion there are some valid points made here, but on the other side of the coin, some rather unfair views also. I VERY PROUDLY work at Big Als on Innes Rd. I go so very far to let customers know just what commitment any of the turtles we sell are. In fact more people leave empty handed, rather than with a turtle. I am curious how you came to the opinion that my sister store in Kanata, is more interested in dollars and cents, than the welfare of these animals? It is very difficult for me to read these comments knowing how I spend my day. Much of my waking hours are dedicated to the WELFARE of turtles. I also spend so much of my day speaking to customers that are either considering sharing their lives with a turtle or they are having problems with a turtle they already own. I for one might not necessarily agree with selling these animals, but since I cannot prevent their sales, I have made it a point to ENSURE that people are educated. Please double check accuracy prior to printing some extremely personal info. I for one take it personally, and find it unfair to say the least. Along with these points of view, I do not see anything about the positive work many of us do. That in my humble view is unacceptable.  Just a few thoughts that I could not help but express.  Thanks for reading   Kahlua

[Fishnut]

You're right kahlua.  I'm glad you're one of the few who cares enough to do that and if I were you I'de get ticked off about the comments too.  I can assure you though that you're a rare gem.  I worked in a pet shop and spent my day doing what you do, only to have my fish room co-workers turn around and sell a turtle with a 20 gallon tank.  As a customer I can't count the number of times I have been in shops where turtles are sold and they have recommended that crappy round plastic container with the palm tree landing as an appropriate home.  There are even people on this site that DECIDE to ignore sound advice and easily manage to find a place to buy a turtle with no questions asked.  It's so frustrating and I hate it!  The event that made me leave the pet shop industry for good was when a customer was getting mad at me for discouraging the sale, was counting the money right in front of me and my boss is standing there wondering why I won't close the deal. 

It's nice to hear that your boss allows you to do what you're doing.  From my experience, most wouldn't.

Cheers

[kahlua]

Glad to see that I do not stand alone in the pet industry Fishnut. My Boss is excellent with letting me sell not only turtles, but ALL animals my personal way. Thanks so much for the response. I appreciate it. Good to know that you are out there. 

[dan2x38]

It wouldn't be a regular day if I did not voice my opinion on some topic.  The pet store industry it's self is controversial. The plants sold are invasive if they get into our waterways majorally upsetting our eco-system. All the fish are from some other nations. If they are released the eco balance is upset i.e. rabbits in Australia. It is refreshing when I go to BA on Innes to hear the staff explain fully to customers the size a pet will get, the care they will require, and the mates they should be kept with (Kanata as well). But that same customer buys the pet anyways refusing the advice also buying different equipment then suggested.

How many customers buy an Oscar, Angels, Goldfish, Arowana, Pelco then stuff them into a 10 or 20 gal. Then 2 months later bring them back or set them free or flush them? How many ppl buy a dog it grows huge but they're living in a tiny 1 bdrm. apartment? How many ppl buy a fluffy cat then it gets hair everywhere ruins their furniture with it's claws? These ppl set these animals free for them to suffer, starve, and upset our eco-system. So why are pets including turtles  allowed to be sold period?

People buy lots of things that sound advice suggests they should not and not just animals. Is the salesperson responsible who sells the big puffy coach that doesn't fit in the customers home? Is the salesperson responsible who sells a Hummer to the customer whose parking spot is to small? So is the salesperson responsible for preventing anyone from buying the pet when the customer insists even after sound advice? You answer the question but remember we all have some of these pets that have been taken from their home or breed from outside of it. Are we wrong?

Big Al's IMO has done excellent informing customers that I have witnessed. Any pet store can be criticized for just being a pet store. So why is one pet i.e. a turtle any different from any other pet. How many birds, dogs, cats, fish, turtles, snakes, snails, and plants are let loose after they are purchased?

Turtles just like all pets from all pet shops need special care. Turtles are no different then any other exotic pet they are being kept out of there regular habitat. Why are any exotic pets or non-native pets made available to us?

I am happy and we are lucky to have so many ethical shops in town; like our sponsors. Shops I frequent are very honest and informative. They also admit when they can't answer my questions and try to find out for me... I respect that!

OVAS on it's home page states this group is here to help promote the health of our wet pets. Individually we can each try our damnest to protect these pets too. But pets including turtles are going to be sold we should try and promote the stores that promote the mission statement of this great group - OVAS!

[littlelil]

i stand and applaud you, dan2x38. that was an excellent and very valid point you made.

[wu-gwei]

First of all, I did not intend to offend you, Kahlua, and we need more people like you to help educate the public. I am not commenting on your job or your care, but rather when a pet store that sells RES and the ethics behind it. BA Kanata was the only store name I dropped, but there are many other stores in the city of Ottawa that sell RES. I mentioned BA, b/c I have always liked it.

I believe and anyone with turtles experince knows that RES, Red Eared Sliders, Trachemys scripta elegans, are not good pets.
1.) Large size (7-12" SCL): requires large housing and filtration which beginners may not realise or understand the hefty $1000 price tag (e.g., 50G to start, end with 150G and a large canister filter or combination of, lighting, decor, electricity, food, etc.).
2.) Longevity: lives for 20-50 years or longer (we just don't know b/c the hobby is realtively young).
3.) Compatibility: cannot be kept with any else (i.e. plants, fish, other turtles, inverts). As RES mature they get aggressive and fight with other turtles, including their own species.

And Kahlua, you agree with that RES are not good pets.

I for one might not necessarily agree with selling these animals, but since I cannot prevent their sales, I have made it a point to ENSURE that people are educated.

I believe that stores have choices and they can sell better pet turtles than RES; such as Kinosternidae spp. (muds or musks), or southern painteds, Chrysemys picta dorsalis, which all stay under 5" SCL when full grown and readily available in the US pet market. Why do stores choose RES? Well, they're cheaper to get and easier to breed.

Why would a fish store carrry turtles? Diversify and carrying more products to make more money, right? That's what a good business does. But when a business deals with the life of a creature, it carries more responsibility and thus requires to have set of ethics. A good store would not make profits be the primary goal. I cannot see any good rason for selling a RES except to torture these guys and make money.

RES are notorious animals to be abandoned and literally thrown away into our local waterways. I've seen this problem first hand in all major cities in Canada, Asia and read about in Europe. If we know that RES are not good pets why should we support stores that sells them and not care about their well being? Stores sell RES to make more money by selling the associated products.

If you can convince me that the majority of the RES sold in a store will get decent life, I'd retract my comment. Most pet RES are doomed to a 20-30G tank with a tiny filter and maybe a rock with a table lamp that's fed pellets. I would say that's the norm for most RES in the pet industry and cruel. I would hesitate to support a store that sells RES.

Turtles just like all pets from all pet shops need special care. Turtles are no different then any other exotic pet they are being kept out of there regular habitat.

Dan made some excellent points, but turtles just live so long!!! That is the biggest issue. Ten years later that bunny or other toy pet will be long dead. Turtles can hibernate and last decades in our waterways. This is why RES have such a long last effect and so much worse to sell.


Cheers,
JJ

[washefuzzy]

Dan I applaud what you said. I think we as a society both the puplic and the businesses need to be held accountable and if you really think about it there shouldn't be any pet stores and some people shouldn't be allowed to have children.
But unfortunately so many of us really enjoy or pets, me big time, and this keeps the pet industry very busy. Sometimes I feel guilty to be part of it but I try to give my pets the best possible care  but I also know that I'm keeping an industry functioning that is not always humane. From goldfish, turtles to puppy mills. Should I eat meat shouldn't I?
It's all shades of grey with a very dark under belly sigh.