not the bible but a good start for those looking at getting tangs

[sniggir]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=739380

[sniggir]

I think I can tel by how many responses... that this is not a popular topic... but meh

[groan]

This is a good read, but can you not take into account the size of the fish when you buy it and also take into account the probablility of upgrading later on to a larger tank (say near future)?

Lets say, hypothetically, I have a 55 and i want a YT and a hippo. The tank is not crowded with rock and coral, yet.
the YT is the size of a loonie and the hippo is 1 inch long.

I plan on upgrading in a year and a half.

Would the 4 ft long 55 not prove to be an adequate home for these fish for 1 and a half years?

I guess the question is how quickly do they grow?

[sniggir]

well to answer you I guess every one has a different idea as to this hobby... for a yellow tang I would have very few issues.. in keeping him in a 55... but the hippo is a easily stressed tang and is more a open water swimmer.. same thing with your clown tangs these fish realy need min of a 6 foot  foot print in order to be healthy.... but then people can realy do what ever they want... I can't stop you from putting a regal in 20 gal no more than I can convince people to take there time and do a proper set up....

I just realy think that we should start looking out for our little fish freinds I here of people being apauled when someone puts a ID shark in a 20 gal... so realy what is the difference.. are we just taking these fish out so we can look at them for a few week month's and then kill them and get another...

one thing you can do buy them at a curtain size and have them for a while and them sell it and find one that is small again...

but what ever

[groan]

"are we just taking these fish out so we can look at them for a few week month's and then kill them and get another..."

I would never do such a thing, and maybe you mis-understood my question.
I am suggesting that if you get the fish at a small enough size would the fish be comphy...but i understand what you mean that, why do it when you could get one in a year nad a half when you have the larger tank.

I dont think anyone on this board (at least I hope not) woudl ever intentionally put a fish in a tank knowing that it will not survive.

[sniggir]

I am not pointing the finger at anyone... just to make that clear... but it is a sensitive topic for me is all... no I don't think that anyone puposefuly goes out and getts fish so they will die... well accept for feeder fish... ... but is ignorance realy any better... and people don't realy listen anyways.. as I said you could have a marine biologist tell you not to keep the fish an... well people are still going to go out and buy it cause it is pritty

[groan]

agreed, but in the end, at least for me being a newb, i will usually take the word of an expiernced aquarist over that of the masses in general.

I'll hold off on getting my hippo. Anyone have a 210 for sale?

[Cheebs]

I've seen endless debates about Tang tank sizes on RC.  I'm new too, so I have no way of knowing what an adequate tank size is, aside from what the experts say.  Can you keep a Yellow Tang in a 55 for a year and a half? I myself think so, and many other would too, but you'll always have tons of people who will say otherwise.  The size of the fish obviously matters, but if you stick a shark in a tiny tank, it'll effect the actual adult size of the fish as it grows.  That's a bit extreme of course, I don't think you could dwarf a tang in a 55 gallon tank, but I'd like to know more specifically what effect having a smaller tank actually has on the fish.  We are already taking them from the open ocean and sticking them in glass boxes, so what exactly decides what makes them happy or not?  Is it having enough space to move around, or just simply having enough space?

[sniggir]

I agree completely with you cheebs... most of the sail fin tangs could be housed in a 55 gal... I wouldn't put a small hippo in there... but again that is just me.. there are tons of different types of Tangs out there and some are great for the smaller tanks.. the problem with keeping them in the smaller tanks you ask... they will get stressed out far more often, which means they will get sick more fequently... oh and I am not saying that I am perfect either,,, just so people understand that...

I just find it funny that we will out right say that you can't keep ID sharks unless you have a huge tank... but when it come to a realy popular SW we don't say the same thing.

I am a big advocate to properly setting up your tank... and looking for the LS that will fit in this tank... I don't know too many people that can afford going from a 55-180gal... so if you set up a 55 why not just select the fish that you know will live happily in the tank...or in other words.. do resurch...

but I am just rambling on now...

[kennyman]

Its a really tough question because fish health is not just a matter of gallons. We are always finding new things about nutritional requirements and what limits the captive lifespan of fish we keep. It is also really hard to make the 10+ year commitment to most of these fish when we choose them.

Responsible fish keeping is not an easy thing to quantify. And since it changes the hobby evolves what was felt as success 10years ago may not be acceptable now or 10 years from now.

Personally I think if your fish don't need medications to survive then you are giving enough physical space, nutrition and water quality to keep them.

[RossW]

We are already taking them from the open ocean and sticking them in glass boxes, so what exactly decides what makes them happy or not?

Excellent point.  You could argue that unless they are in a <pick your fav. LARGE #> gallon tank we are not providing for their needs.

It is a very slippery slope and I don't know how one could determine that 2' extra of glass will make this wild creature happier.  At the end of the day we are selfishly locking these animals in a glass world for our enjoyment.

[sniggir]

lol this kinda funny as I was reading the post that sevrum posted and there was a guy that posted the same statement.... and well here was the a asnwer.  on both sides.... yup you are correct.. we are keeping these animals for us... in glass cages... but  to say that the is not much difference between 4' and 6'... okay so keep them in a 2' tank it only 2' differnce... even though I am pushin 6' tanks I realy accualy think that most of these fish should be kept in the largest tank that you can possibly keep... If I could put together what I wanted to in my basement... 8'x3'x3' I would still not keep curtain types of tangs.. I would put a regal in there though  ...

I will copy the link that severum posted

[sniggir]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1326869&highlight=myth+tang

here is one of the threads... if you can bare with the thread it is a good read.. and talks about different view points on the keeping of this species

[kennyman]

Hopefully this will add to the content of the discussion and not derail it. But when you read about the size of a fish you can often see Captive sizes vs Wild sizes. This is a direct result of our cultural practices and the fishes suitability to captivity. These captive bread sizes will hopefully increase as we get better at keeping fish and learn more. But the attitude of responsibility is key to getting there.

Fish                    Aquarium                Wild

BlueTang:                    6"                      12"
Powder Brown              -                         8"
Powder Blue                 7"                      10"
Lipstick                        8"                     20"
Regal                          4-6"                   10"
Yellow                         4-6"                    8"
Sailfin                          7"                      15"


Who knows what stunts these fish, poor nutrition, lack of exercise, stress? But whatever it is its obviously related to be raised in a captive system. If we are being responsible we would try to minimise the disparity would we not?

Sizes taken from "Complete Encyclopedia of the Saltwater Aquarium" Dakin/Sprung 2003

[sniggir]

right on I definatly think it should help shine some light on this.

[FishPassion]

Snigger, Im glad you started this thread but if it will be followed is a different story. I remember last year posting an answer to a thread regarding ID sharks where the person I believe had 8 big sharks (anywhere from 6-14 inches)  in a 55 gallon and was wondering why they were racing back and forth and dieing one by one. People will do what they want no matter what is posted, and ask questions later in a new thread as to why? I had answered that thread by saying that these fish were notsuitable for that size of tank due to the growth rate and that they would if not allready be stunted in growth with perhaps abnormal body size compared to head size as one example only. Certain fish should not be made available to the aquarium industry, but at the very least people should educate themselves by reading "many" threads on various sites to educate themselves on the needs of the different fish kept in captivity.

Good luck with this Snigger, I do hope you can get the point across...  

[sniggir]

Thx FP it is nice to see some of the older reef keepers chiming in... but as you stated people are going to do what they want..... I just hope that some people will get alittle bit out of this... instead of the normal....

[Faerin]

The real issue with tangs isn't so much the size of the fish, but how active they are. In the wild, a tang's territory can span miles. They are extremely active fish, and require as much room as they can get to thrive. And while it's true that a few feet seems trivial after pulling them from the ocean, ask yourself: Would you rather be stuck in a 5' box or a 10' box?

It comes down to a matter of thrive versus survive. Most tangs will survive (at least for a while) in a 55g tank ... for some people that's enough, others would disagree. Unfortunately since we can't just ask the fish how they feel, where to draw the line is completely up to our own discretion; and you'll be hard pressed to get the same answer out of any two people. After seeing how tangs behave in many different aquariums, I personally wouldn't keep any in a tank under 6' (with the larger tangs like sohals and unicorns moving up to 8' or 10'). But again, opinions vary.

To answer Groan's original question, yes and no. A (very) small blue tang will survive fine in a 55g tank for a year. The reason this is generally frowned upon (at least why I advise against it) is because a lot of the time, that planned future upgrade just doesn't happen. Plans change, things get delayed and before you know it that little blue tang is 9" across and is huddled up in the corner of the tank. If you have the equipment and are already in the process of putting it all together, then sure, go ahead and buy the fish. Otherwise, that fish will still be available a year from now. You wouldn't buy a pony and keep him in your back yard while you look for a farm to buy ... a fairly exaggerated analogy, but you get the point.

[groan]

thanks faerin, exactly why i have decided not to get any more fish and to concentrate on getting my tanki looking good. i need a skimmer for it and will be concentrating on that this pay-period

still following this thread either way to, as FP says, to educate myself.

[Cheebs]

As Faerin said, we can't exactly ask the fish hwo they "feel".  My tang never swims around the top 8" of my tank, so let's say I remove those top 8" and make it a much smaller tank, how exactly would my tang feel about it?  Sure, it'll be swimming around the exact same area, but just how far do fish senses go?  Some people measure everything to do with their fish based on stress levels..  Either your fish is fine, or it's stressed.  But is there more to it?  Can a fish brain actually register the fact that it's in a more confined space, or is it all based on it's body's reaction to how much it can swim around and interact?  If I took a juvenile tang from the ocean, and raised it in my tank, letting it's brothers roam free in the ocean, what exactly makes mine smaller?  Does placing a fish in any tank automatically garner some sort of stress on the fish causing it to grow differently?

I could go on with the questions, because my curiosity has been unleashed, but I guess the main thing I'm wondering is, if we try so hard to simulate the ocean environment, can we ever truly make our fish 100% "happy" without having a tank the size of the ocean itself?