Everyone should read this

[jimskoi]

I just received this in an email from one of my suppliers in Hawaii.
I think this will be the start of things to come.
Im not suprised to see this nor do I think its a bad thing.
I ust think that prices on some items are going to be threw the roof in the years to come.

Here is the email:

"The Hawaii Legislature is considering to pass a bill that will limit aquarium fish collection in Hawaii to 20 fish per collector per person with a maximum of 5 yellow tangs per day.  The bill also will put a no take cap on angels, butterflies, boxfish, puffers,eels and many other species.  The passage of this bill will essentially shut down the tropical fish industry in Hawaii which will include the transhipped items from Christmas Island and Marshall Islands.  Please forward this to everyone in the industry because if we don't stop this bill, next year, yellow tangs may wholesale at $100 each."

[Julie]

Jim, are you starting a yellow tang breeding program?

[Zoe]

I  think it's great! It will definitely encourage people to captive breed, anyway.

[jimskoi]

I wish I could.
If I could.I would breed everything.Better off for everyone and everything.

[Heidi]

Good side and bad side to every story I guess. This might make the hobby unaffordable for some people.  Don't get me wrong - i think that it's also a good thing but I can definately see the prices skyrocketing on some species that don't seem to breed well in captivity!!  I guess we'll have to see. If you really want a fish - you'll have to save up for it. I guess on a side bar - this will keep the impulse buyers from purchasing the fish cause they want to have a "nemo" but don't do any proper research on the fish or system before buying it.

[Zoe]

The way I see it, I'd rather have a 100$ fish in my tank, than no fish in the ocean.

[Julie]

Many nemos are tank bred, however the majority of marine fish are not tank bred.
Does someone have a listing of marine fish which actually reproduce in the aquarium?

[sniggir]

1000% agree, while I am frugal and look for deals I try not to do so at the expense of the ocean, I think if we could get more into propagation it could be very interesting and less detrimental to or oceans, for sure

[sniggir]

well here is a sad fact bangi cardnals are almost extingt...I know I can't spell.... but anyway these fish will breed in captivity... but it would kill the local economy so the lifted the ban..... realy sad

at least to me

[Julie]

Here's a listing of captive breds http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=60
Tangs being a favorite of many come from the ocean.

[jimskoi]

I have never heard about the bangaii.
As for tank bred.There are quite a few that are available.The problem is that they are more exspensive than wild caught.

I have brought in both and to my experience(atleast in this area) people tend to go more for the wild.Better colours and cheaper.

Im adding on to my store and im hopeing to start to breed some fish.

[kennyman]

I don't have a problem with collection limits for the sake of slowing environmental degradation. But some of the magic will go with it as we begin to limit ourselves to domesticated versions of saltwater fish. Creatures DO change when we domesticate them. Be it plants, dogs, fish cats or bunnies. 

[gvv]

Can somebody explain me this: "per collector per person"?

[veron]

theres a huge flip side to that possible ban/restriction. while some of you think thats because theres overfishing happening and that its gonna save some fish from extinction this is NOT true for the islands.  there is a TON of islands and areas around there that are totally protected already and theres only 6 island that collectors are aloud to fish. plus there only aloud to go so deep. This ban would actually really hurt the economy and availabilty of many fish.
not to mention that it indeed could INCREASE illegal fishing practises
[cyanide anyone]. This bill is NOT a good idea. theres a HUGE thread on this on the REEFCENTRAL site. I suggest you give it a read.

[Zoe]

That is specious reasoning... it's like the saying: "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" or "If we only made cocaine legal, it wouldn't be such a dangerous black market."
While one must of course take appropriate steps to reduce illegal fishing and collecting practices as much as possible, we can't just allow something detrimental to our oceans to continue because of the possibility of illegal collection.
We can only pluck countless amounts of fish and invertebrates from our oceans, until something starts to give - which is already starting to happen.
And if greatly reducing out impact on ocean wildlife by greatly reducing what collectors can capture results in a weakened local economy and more expensive fish, I don't think that's too high a price to pay.
Granted, I'm not a poor Hawaiin collector, but these types of laws and changes always encounter resistance, problems, and this type of argument at first... but usually end up helping our wildlife.

People say the same things when hunting bans and restrictions are introduced: "This just means that people will illegally hunt during non-hunting months, there are plenty of deer in the forest, etc"... I do believe that in the end, these bills and laws and restrictions are good things, and I hope this one passes.

[veron]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1306550

[veron]

and read this as well. please take the time to do some research before judging or commenting.many of us like to jump on bandwagons but its best to read for awhile and sift thru the comments. especially if your ''newer'' to the reefing hobby

It would appear that there are a number of things that need to be cleared up regarding this thread. First, the collectors, wholesale companies and hobbyists in Hawaii are, for the most part, not against conservation or regulation of the industry. Everyone's livelyhood depends on the continuation of the resource. What we are against is having laws created which are backed by private interest groups who did not consult scientific data for their claims. The Department of Land and Natural Resources was not consulted prior to this bill and it is their responsibility to manage Hawaii's aquatic resources. This bill is not an attempt by Hawaii's government to conserve its resources, it is a ploy to garner free publicity for its author. If you would like to hear more of his rant, please do follow the previous link to http://www.seashepherd.org/editoria..._070814_1p.html 90% of his essay is purely opinion and not supported by fact. If you would like me to break it down in a future post I would be more than happy to do so.
The DLNR/DAR has already set aside a large percentage of the Kona coastline as no-take areas. This has had scientifically proven results. What the collectors are catching is the resulting spill-over from the conservation districts. As long as there are large no catch zones, fish species will always be spawning. As those who have taken the time to read this bill can attest to, its wording is vague and arbitrary.

"(b) No person shall catch, net, or trap (THIS CAN BE INTERPRETED TO INCLUDE SPEARFISHERMEN AND LINE FISHERMEN ALSO)certain ornamental fish in a no-take category, including but not limited to(BASICALLY ALL THE FISH IN HAWAII CAN BE ADDED AT WHIM), all puffer fish, all box fish, potter's angel, cleaner wrasse, all coralvores, and all eels.

(c) For purposes of this section, the term "ornamental fish" means salt water fish, usually found in or around reefs, that are commonly kept in aquariums (WHO IS TO DICTATE WHAT DEFINES A COMMONLY KEPT FISH?).

The reality of this industry is that no collectors in Hawaii can survive with a 20 fish per day bag limit. If yellow tangs, potter angels and other popular Hawaiian fish are restricted or banned, the only result will be the overharvesting of the few indiginous Hawaiian specimens that are outside the ban. If we were to only target potters wrasse and flame wrasse day in and day out - they would cease to appear on our reefs.
As for the cessation of Christmas Island and Marshall Island fish (flame angels, lemon peels, mystery wrasse, rhomboids, black tangs, goldflake angels,etc.) Hawaii has historically been a hub for their transshipment. When attempting to ship the fish from those South Pacific locations directly to the West Coast there were staggering losses due to the long transit time. The wholesale companies in Hawaii, however, do not make enough of a profit margin on the transhipped fish to continue doing so without the Hawaii specimens to add to the mix. If this bill passes, there will be no more fish from Hawaii (other than ultra rare items like crosshatch triggers and banded angels - unless those too are banned.) And there will be no more South Pacific fish. I have been in this industry for the past 15+ years and this is the reality of it.
On a closing note, the author of this bill Robert Wintner has this to say about all you who have fish tanks, "I think of the internet pedophiles lured into the kitchen where the MSNBC cameras are rolling so the world can see them-they hang their heads, knowing their appetite is so wicked. Aquarium keeping is similarly shameful, but the perpetrators must be treated with understanding and help toward rehabilitation."
If you feel as though this hobby causes you need rehabilitation for your shameful and wicked appetite, then by all means - please support Mr. Wintner.


__________________
Into the depths we go...

Hobby Experience: 18 Years
Current Tanks: 9,300 gallons
Interests: Catching Masked Angelfish



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  01/30/2008 06:07 AM         

Fischer's Angel
Registered Member

Registered: Jan 2008
Location: Atooi
Occupation: Standup Philosopher
Posts: 84


I couldn't have said it better freedive43, it is not reasonable restrictions that

[kennyman]

http://www.seashepherd.org/editorials/editorial_070814_1p.html

The Main Hawaiian Islands now have "ghost" reefs off many leeward shores, with healthy coral but very few fish-not a single yellow tang can be found on most reefs, where they schooled by the hundreds 10 years ago-by the thousands 30-50 years ago. Water degradation & silting from development account for some decline in fish populations, but the biggest cause is massive extraction by aquarium collectors (& gill netters). Aquarium collectors take 8-10 million "ornamental" fish from Hawaii reefs annually with no regulation and no limit to their take.

For years the state's official number was ½ million fish taken per year, including 300,000 yellow tangs. Dan Polhemus, State Administrator of the Division of Aquatic Resources (DAR), sat down in early August with a key panel, including the biggest aquarium fish exporter in Hawaii, who provided accurate catch stats. The "official" take now reflects the grim reality.

So have they been collecting sustainably?

Perhaps collectors need to find other work like guiding sport divers instead 

[Zoe]

The reality of this industry is that no collectors in Hawaii can survive with a 20 fish per day bag limit. If yellow tangs, potter angels and other popular Hawaiian fish are restricted or banned, the only result will be the overharvesting of the few indiginous Hawaiian specimens that are outside the ban.

Oh, well, as long as the collectors can keep their jobs as collectors, then it's fine, right?  What about when there are no more fish in the ocean, then what?  They won't have jobs anyway.  That's like saying that we musn't outlaw ivory poaching because ivory hunters will lose their jobs.
ALL species need to have collection restrictions, from profilic bunnies and rats to rare panda bears and tigers.

There are two sides to everything and I'm not saying that your's is necessarily wrong - however, if you're mainly considering what *might* happen to *other* fish if this ban is put in place, and that a bunch of collectors might have to get new jobs, IMO that is not a good reason to continue robbing the ocean of fish.

This hobby needs to become sustainable! What, like 99% of available fish are WC? That's ridiculous.  Even the reptile hobby is nowhere near that bad. And if we can't keep fish healthy enough in captivity to breed, then we have no business keeping them at all.

[kennyman]

I have been doing some further reading as suggesed by Vernon. And He is right to ask us to learn more about this.

http://www.pacfish.org/wpapers/aquarium.html

Most marine ornamental fish originating from U.S. waters come from Hawai`i, which is known for its rare endemic species of fish of high value. Recent studies have shown that aquarium collectors have had a significant negative impact on the fish species taken in the fishery, damaging our fragile coral reef ecosystems. Among other impacts, the collection of fish for the aquarium trade causes significant declines of fish populations in their natural habitat.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1523-1739.2003.00379.x?journalCode=cbi

Seven of the 10 aquarium species surveyed were significantly reduced by collecting. The abundance of aquarium fish at collection sites ranged from 38% lower (Chaetodon multicinctus) to 75% lower (C. quadrimaculatus) than that at control sites.