Everyone should read this

[veron]

ZOE, I'm not sure your getting the point? I'm all for regulated collecting of fish of the saltwater variety!! 100% behind it! but, what
is being said is that the BILL thats trying to be passed is not backed by proper data or has the person trying to pass it consulted with the people that actually know whats going on in the water.

while some SW fish can and are being bred theres just not enough info or knowledge to yet bred most fish. alot of money IS being spent on this very thing. controled catching is being done in HW
there maybe other factors to loss of fish like people eating them in some country's. This bill is a slippery slope because it could infact
shut down ALL WC saltwater fish. this would be a shame because a LARGE part of the hobbiests are indeed very carefull and attached to there livestock just like pets.
A knee jerk reaction is NOT needed [like this bill] but a more indepth look at collections and more work on breeding.

how many people here have only captive bred fish in there tanks??
not many and thats probaly including you.
now a BILL that I would back 100% is banning cyanide from all country's using it for collecting.

[FishPassion]

Now theres an excellent point Veron cyanide caught fish, talk about sure future death to a fish. From your purchase date you could almost estimate the future death and get a coffin ready for your fish.  How many thousand fish are caught like this and distributed around the world every day. Just think if cyanide was banned, and how that would impact the future population of ornamental fish...

[jimskoi]

I agree with Veron also.
They should first ban that deadly stuff and see how that goes.
I bet you would find that the amount of fish that were taken from the wild would drop considerably.
People wouldnt be replacing their fish as often to do cyanide poisioning.

I did get a # that people could phone and leave their opinion.

[FishPassion]

By some estimates, fishermen have poured more than a thousand tonnes of cyanide into Philippine waters. And it's proving devastating. Cyanide kills coral polyps and algae, turning many coral reefs — the "rainforests of the oceans" — into marine deserts.

google cyanide caught fish and you will be amazed at what you read this is only one statement out of?? So are hobbiests the culprit here or greedy quick buck fisherman...

[Zoe]

I get your point Veron, I just don't agree with it - although naturally I do agree with banning cyanide, but which of us would not agree with that?
I also don't agree with the statement that this bill is based on lies, because it isn't.  Hawaii (and every where pretty much) has been over-collecting for years, and it's starting to show.
I am all for any restriction on the collection of wild livestock.  I am all for any ban on the collection of species that are endangered.
We have to stop putting ourselves first: "But I really want to buy this fish, I don't care that it was the last one in the wild!" "What about the poor Hawaiin fishermen!" "What about our local SW fish stores!"
What about the ocean?  You can't tell me that ALL reefs are not in danger, including the Hawaiian livestock.
As far as I'm concerned, the passing of this bill would be a good start to forcing this hobby to become sustainable. And that, no matter which way you slice it, should be our ultimate goal.  We can't do it overnight, but introducing restrictions, particlarly on the collection of endangered or easily captive bred fish, is an excellent start.

[mseguin]

Bottom line: the environment comes first, the hobby second. And yes, sometimes a kneejerk reaction is needed, before we keep hemorrhaging species. You'd want them to scale in the restrictions, I think its better to add drastic restrictions and then scale in the allowances as data comes in.
Secondly, overfishing in one area is not ok because the fish are safe in another area. #1, local populations becomnig extirpated is almost as much of a loss as loss of a whole species, and #2, this eliminates a large segment of the genetic pool, which cna cause a genetic bottleneck and subseuqent crash.
Yes, a cyanide ban would be great, but if anything, it illustrates the biggest problem with marine collecting, the lack of regulation.

[artw]

People are going to have to be prepared to pay more for captive bred fish.   They cost more, its that simple.   Captive clownfish go for $45.99 at BA Innes

[Zoe]

People are going to have to be prepared to pay more for captive bred fish.   They cost more, its that simple.   Captive clownfish go for $45.99 at BA Innes

I got my tank bred false percs from BA for 30$
And even if they are 45$ - an extra $15 for saving ocean? Fair enough.
And as we develop and perfect captive breeding, the price will go back down.

[artw]

You don't know the average customer Zoe.
Zomg its $45.   Thats too much.   Etc etc etc

Don't get me wrong I agree with you.
Until suppliers from the Phillipines stop sending us fish for 50 cents wholesale you're not going to see a huge surge in captive bred fish in the RETAIL OUTLETS

Hobbyists, now thats a completely different story

[gvv]

I'm not sure whether I'm for or against. I've never been in the place and never saw how (cyanide?) and how many fish is caught by each collector, how many die during transportation, how that impact all ecosystem, etc. We may discuss it forever, but these are only our opinions and nothing more. Have anybody observered the situation for decades and found that there is definite DNA mutations or loss of genetic material? And it is not because of some other events, but only because of fish capturing? I doubt it! No one would ever spend money for such a crazy thing - no profit from it.
The main idea is that nobody knew the guy before suggesting such a bill, now he will be popular It is like burn Rome to be remembered, as Neron did...

Another though is: unfortunately there is not much captive bread fish available and I will doubt this will change in nearest future.

Regards

[Zoe]

The main idea is that nobody knew the guy before suggesting such a bill, now he will be popular  It is like burn Rome to be remembered, as Neron did...

Another though is: unfortunately there is not much captive bread fish available and I will doubt this will change in nearest future.

What does it matter who he is or why he wrote the bill if the result is going to help our ocean wildlife?  Why is it that because he was previously unknown, his motives for writing this bill are questionnable? Maybe they are. Maye he just wants to save our oceans.

And no, of course there won't be captive bred fish available, if wildcaught fish are a few cents each.  That is, of course, until there are no more fish in the ocean.  That might seem like a crazy, far off, exageration... but it's not that far off or implausible.

[gvv]

I think it is impossible to save all the oceans with one bill. Sorry, but cannot imagine it.
Till now people still hunting on whales, while this is banned. Is it good - no, but you would not be able to stop everyone. Probably in some native tradition they should eat whale twice a year otherwise they will be damned.

Let's stop buying all this stuff from LPS's and this way we will show that we want to take care of wildlife. Who starts? 

[kennyman]

If you think you know someone using cyanide call our good buddy Diver Bob and let him know. These Sea Sheppard guys travel around looking for people breaking the law and "Cyanide fishing has been illegal in the Philippines and Indonesia for many years"(http://www.ecovitality.org/cyanide.htm). But talking about cyanide will have no impact in Hawaii were 50%-75% of butterfly fish are gone from places where unregulated collection is allowed.

Also take the Freshwater aquarium trade as an example. Fish, once rare and expensive, are now easily found in their domesticated versions. Fish that don't take well to domestication will be phased out from the general hobby by price if not by social trends in environmental awareness. More demand for tank raised fish leads to a shift in the economy when it is more attractive for people to breed them as opposed to capture them. Some fish are harder to breed but just as with fW fish it will happen over time. Just 20 years ago nobody fragged corals. 10 years ago nobody kept acropora. How many people breed cardinal fish today? Why? Simply because the cheep imports of wild collected fish make breeding unprofitable. A local retailer can buy a fish for $4 or $5 and sell it for $30. How are you going to sell the dealer a tank raised fish for $10?

[Zoe]

I think it is impossible to save all the oceans with one bill. Sorry, but cannot imagine it.
Till now people still hunting on whales, while this is banned. Is it good - no, but you would not be able to stop everyone. Probably in some native tradition they should eat whale twice a year otherwise they will be damned.

Let's stop buying all this stuff from LPS's and this way we will show that we want to take care of wildlife. Who starts? 

I didn't suggest that this bill would save our oceans - but it's a good start.
When was whaling more prevalent - before or after it was banned?  That's right, before it was banned. People still do it, illegally, but they do it a LOT less than before,

I do my best to buy captive bred stock, but naturally it's not always possible.  Many dealers do their best to sell their own propagated frags, and to obtain captive bred stock when possible.  It's impossible to expect pet stores, dealers, and hobbiests to do it through sheer force of will. Same as if you had asked the whalers to just please stop - they wouldn't stop, not until it was made illegal, at which time most of them did.

[artw]

its like banning smoking. if you did that, there would be public outrage.    likewise, you stop selling wildcaught liverock and fish, there would be public outrage. there is just too much of an economy to shut down the export of wild product.
If people are truly serious about protecting the environment of marine fishes they simply wouldn't set up a reef tank in the first place. Or if they did, it would be 100% aquacultured stuff.

Unlike Lake Malawi or the Amazon rivers this stuff doesn't grow back in a matter of months...   well everyone reading this thread knows that.

[Zoe]

No, it's NOT the same as banning smoke (and have you noticed - a ban, or restrictions in every public area or home/vehicle with children is well on its way). Smoking can make you and the people around you sick. Snatching fish from the ocean is these quantities kills our reefs.  It simply cannot go on, or the reefs will die. Sooner than you think.
Again, you're saying "we can't" because of what people will think, because of the economy. You're resisting change which, while natural, is not beneficial for our environmental.  People get outraged no matter what happens, no matter what the change is. But people get over it. Economies recover.

To use your example, people were outraged when they banned smoking in bars.  Angry letters were written, perfectly valid reasons of why smoking should be allowed in bars were given. And yet the ban was put in place, and now no one smokes in bars. No one even thinks about it anymore.

Perhaps these events were before your time, but public outrage always closely precedes and follows bans and restrictions of this sort.  On one side there is, of course, environmentalists and animal lovers, but the other side is full of cheapos, hunters, poor villagers, who think they "need" a certain practice to remain open to all.  Whalers, citizens of other countries, were outraged when whaling was banned - whale hunters had to find other jobs. Hunters were outraged when seasonal hunting practices were put into place.  And they all fretted and thought, "oh dear, how can the world go on?"
But the world did go on, and was a better place.

The fact is: these practices must be slowed or stopped.  If they slow now when there is still time to save the reefs, then great. If they stop because the reefs no longer exist, well, at least we'll all get to enjoy a few more decades of cheap fish in the meantime.

[artw]

Fact is I agree on the ban of reef collecting, full stop.

[veron]

a full ban on REEF STOCK! now sorry but thats just crazy, how about a full ban on all wild caught freshwater stock!!

you guys/gal are getting totally sidetracked from the original matter. THE BILL please read it properly or go over to RC and read the ongoing thread. theres people on there actually from HW that know a lot more than us here in OTTAWA, about the bill thats been written and the person who's trying to pass it.

controlled collecting is whats needed and more breeding. HW is as mentioned very very good at the control part but,, if this bill is passed you will have all the experienced divers that only catch small to medium non spawning fish. there are private inexperienced divers that catch anything. these people would prosper, not to mention
that other collection sites like PHILIPPINES etc,, would ramp up there catches to keep up with the demand.

I haven't seen anyone link hard evidence that this bill would not do MORE harm!!
also, I haven't seen evidence that the REEFING hobby divers are the ones responsible for a decline in yellow tangs? is there a real decline?

in the end YES, we definatly need more conditions in collection of reef fish,rock, corals etc.. but I'd focus on other country's!!
by the way, this hobby has come ALONG way with aquaculturing
in a short time
if there is an outright ban on collecting wild caught your gonna see INSANE pricing just look at the new breed of SNOWFLAKE clowns!!
$150 each!~!

[Nerine]

AMEN ZOE!!!

I'm fully in for a ban. What are we going to do when we have fished the ocean clean??
Why not leave some in there and just concentrate on breeding. Sure there is some data lacking for some species but why....part of the reason is lack of knowledge of that animal...other is some need very specific things to happen to breed. Aren't humans sophisticated enough to do this? If it was something that people seriously wanted to do, there would be no stopping them and it would be accomplished. Sure it may take time and resources. but isn't it worth it in the end?

Look at birds...some Cockatoos are banned from export in Australia, over exporting was going on for awhile...are we suffering out in North America for lack of Cockatoos now?? NO. Sure birds can be easier to breed than fish...but cockatoos can easily kill their mate or offspring but we are still not lacking these beautiful birds. The only one we do not have many of is the Major Mitchell due to the strict rules.

If you are truly serious about your hobby you should be doing everything in your power to protect the wildlife around you. I'm working on a breeding project for Zamora Woodcats which are mostly wild caught so I can do a small portion and support the LFS by supplying captive bred fish.

[artw]

a full ban on REEF STOCK! now sorry but thats just crazy, how about a full ban on all wild caught freshwater stock!!

That's ridiculous.   Neons, cardinals, and most of the other fish in the Amazon at least are an annual species,  which I assume some of you don't know, but that means they are like mosquitoes. they come back year after year.