no-worry sump

[littlelil]

I've been trying to figure out how to make a sump without having to drill holes in my SW tank because it's already established. I've been trying to follow all the posts about sumps for the last few months but if imissed something and repeat someone's stuff, please forgive me.

the criteria for this sump are:
- no holes in tank
- skims top layar
- absolutely cannot over flow/ spill onto the floor
- able to keep heater and tunze nano skimmer in it
- 5.5g in size (i built the stand before thinking of sump and now it can't fit a 10 g inside)
- fits float valves (for ATO)

thus, dude's thread about the no-spill RDSB "sump" is out of the question because it has to have an open top to be able to use the simmer.

My question: would the photo below (taken from http://www.melevsreef.com/install_sump.html) work for my use? the most important thing, as i said before, is that i CANNOT spill ANY water onto the floor, ever.

thinking out-loud:
1. I don't see how the "outerbox" would keep water in it. I guess it's because the tube is too small for all the water to flow down all at once. Would this be hard to figure out the tubing size? Would it be easier to just have a separate compartment, divided by a short wall, with the first compartment to ensure the u-tube's siphon doesn't break, and the second compartment for any water flowing over the wall from first compartment to just run down the tube (confusing??). This way the water won't ever be able to overflow and spill out the "outerbox" and onto the floor. The other way, it might, if the pump suddenly gets faster..

2. I guess it's also important to have the u-tube submerged in the water on both ends deep enough so that if the pump was to slow down the siphon would not break very quickly.

3. the pump would have to be connected to a float valve where if the water level gets too low, the pump stops.


Now to play out some possible scenarios
Scenario 1: if there's a power outage
pump stops, water level stays where it is and then siphon breaks. When the power comes back on the water would pump into tank and not return. Consequently, the float switch reacts due to low water levels, and then shuts off again.

Scenario 2: siphon breaks
water pumps into tank, doesn't return, float switch cuts out the power.



In conclusion, i think this method would work.., btu i feel like i'm still missing a piece of the puzzle. Does anyone have this set up? Is there anything wrong with the setup? Am i just being paranoid, or am i good to go?

Oh, and another thing, What are the three panels for seen typically in a sump?



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[redbelly]

The only sure fire way to be sure that you dont have a flood is to drill the tank I am sorry to say.

[littlelil]

The only sure fire way to be sure that you dont have a flood is to drill the tank I am sorry to say.

thanks pat. 

[redbelly]

Honestly, your tank is still young, I would arrange a time when someone can come and drill your tank, tear it down for an hour and put it back up.
There are just report after report of people having floods from these type of overflows.

A pain, Yes!
But definately worth it IMO.

Anyone that currently has a overflow box like this care to chime in with their experiences?

[littlelil]

even this fool-proof set-up?? seriously! What could possibly go wrong here?  Oh, and after discussing with Andrew, another safety precaution in ensuring that the tank doesn't over flow is to set the return pump close enough to the surface of the water, but lower than the float valve is set for, so that if the float fails, after the siphon fails, the pump would only pump a little more into the tank before there's no more water to pump. Granted the pump would probably burn out, but not a big deal...

i would totally get it drilled but to be honest, the tank is only going to be around for another year or so til i move. i just want to optimize the tank how it is right now. When i get a new tank then YES, DEFINITELy save myself the effort and get it drilled!! (and then i'll have to learn how to make that swiveling return pump you've got! LOL. SO COOL)

But definitely, i'd really like to hear some experiences, or possible scenarios how this might go wrong..

[Agnate]

I haven't looked into this *at all*, as I was just thinking of it on the spot, but could do a sort of "reverse" sump, in that the sump/refugium is *higher* than the tank?  So, you pump water up from the tank and into the sump, and that water is fed by gravity back into the tank?

Only problem I'm seeing is that your tank's water level might drop while the sump's level would remain the same.  Also, if the sump is above the tank, you'd need extra bracing/cabinet/shelf to keep it there, plus you'd probably want to cover it up (as it is a sump and all), so it kind of defeats the purpose of "hiding" the equipment.

So the PROs are:
- Can put your equipment in it.
- No chance of spills (unless the cabinet fails).
- No need to drill your tank.

CONs are:
- Water line in the tank might still drop (but this would happen without a sump, too, so no big deal).
- Gravity-back-to-tank might make some noise (depending on how you set it up).
- Sump has to be above tank (not under it), which might create visual/aesthetic problems.
- Sump needs to be drilled.
- Tank would need a surface-skimming box that water could flow into in order to get the "surface skimming" you require, but without setting up an siphon-overflow (pump to the sump would sit in this box).


Anyways, I'm no sump expert, but I thought I'd at least write down the idea.  I'm sure a lot of other people have had it, though, so I don't claim it to be original, and there's probably some massive flaw that I can't see.

^_^

[beertech]

There are a lot of people who use "hang on back" sump/refugiums.  I have built a few for people and can do the same for you if you would like.  Just pm me for details.  It can range anywhere from 2-6 gallons, and any shape.  You can have some equipment in it like heaters etc..  The most important thing I need to know is how much room you have between the back of your tank and the wall.   

Gord

[Funkmotor]

...and there's probably some massive flaw that I can't see.

If you put the sump above the tank, then the tank *is* the sump.  Dropping the water level in the display means that, at a minimum, you'd need to put the floats for your ATO in the display.

Also, with the water now dropping into the display from above you'd now have your display full of bubbles.

So, two massive flaws, really.   

[Funkmotor]

I have a CPR CS50 overflow box that you can have for $20 if you want it.    You'd need your own Aqua-Lifter pump and it needs a new bulkhead, but I'd say that's a good deal.

That said, I took it off my tank because I didn't trust it.  Anything goes wrong, water all over the place.  Not to mention the fact that they're noisy as all get-out.  Sure, the CPR comes with a tube you can use to "tune" it so it stops gurgling, but even the slightest change in water drop speed or volume - even momentarily - starts it to gurgling again.  And I can't emphasize enough how very loud it is...and how painful it is to readjust.

I did have a similar idea to yours, though - even going so far as to buy the parts to make it.  The problem with it is that it cannot help but put gear into your display.  So now you've got the overflow box in there and at least a 1 1/4" piece of pipe with endcaps on it (snail guards!) stuck to the back wall in plain sight and it's just going to be ugly.

Not to mention the cost of the parts and the time to assemble the electricals and such.

Drill the tank.   

[Agnate]

Haha, yeah, I knew there were would be a couple major reasons why it wouldn't work!  ^_^

[beertech]

The hang on sump works exactly like an Aquaclear or any hang on filter.  As a matter of fact, some people just modify their existing hob filters to become refugiums.  The water is pumped into it by a small maxi jet type pump.  the water passes through various chambers divided by baffles, then pours back into the main tank via an open spout, just like a filter.  I prefer not to build them with tubes as the return, due to the possibility of blockage.  There is no possibility of flooding due to power outages, and no siphon to start.  The powerhead can also be attached to a small surface skimmer attachment that won't take up as much room as an overflow box.  Also, the surface skimmer that feeds into the hob fuge must be the free floating type, so that the water level in the tank can go up or down and not affect the water supply to the powerhead.  The benefits of this design include having increased water volume to help stabilize your water params,  a safe breeding area for beneficial pods and a convenient place to grow and harvest macro algae.  The good thing about the open spout as a return is that when the pods are washed back into your display, they don't have to pass through a pump impeller, thus avoiding the possibility of being mashed up.  They then enter your display as live food for fish and corals. Another benefit to the hob sump is that in the case of someone who plans to move the tank in the future, you can remove the sump intact, without draining it completely, and then restart it on the new display. This will help get the new tank cycled and mature faster, as the sump will contain mature substrate, liverock, bacteria and pods. As for the overflow boxes that feed an under tank sump, I agree with everybody else, they are too risky. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night!  Drilling is the way to go, if at all possible.  I just wanted to clarify the difference between these two setups.  Hope this helps,   


Gord

[Darth]

so I have to ask, besides being able to put your skimmer in it, is a 5 gal sump really worth all the trouble? Is it going to make that much of a difference?

[littlelil]

well, the surface of my water is pretty disgusting. And i've got this little corner wher ehtere is barely much flow at the surface because of all the equipment. i've got the skimmer, two floats, and a heater. It's really rather unsightly. I mostly want some way of skimming the surface. there's actually a brown layar of crud, visibly brown and bubbly in the equipment corner. Also, because all the equip is there, i can't get my light to sit on the tank properly. it's a 36" light (yours, darth  ) on a 36" tank. i have to put that up front and the shorter ligth at the back, with the skimmer cup sitting between the light and the base. so to move the light, i ahe to remoe the skimmer cup, put it somewhere, and move the light. My floats are sitting directly under some light, compromising the light's efficiency as well. If I could install a sump to skim the surface and remove the equipment, it would be really useful. However, if I can't, then i can't! c'est la vie.

I really appreciate all the posts and warnings on this thread, but I don't think that anyone's really identified how my system can flood.. i just don't see the problem...

[Darth]

I would think in the case of a power outage, your pump would be sucking water from your tank into the sump. the return pump, pumping it back in, so in case the power goes out, your pump would not be returning any water, and the natural siphon that would take effect from the pump that sucks water out of your tank, would essential drain the tank, or at least as much as the hose in the water is. Now I know nothing about sumps, as I only have a small space in which to put one, although like you would love to hide equipment somewhere. So I know what am I am trying to say, just may not be comming across as well as I want perhaps someone can elaborate on it.

[Funkmotor]

I would think in the case of a power outage, your pump would be sucking water from your tank into the sump. the return pump, pumping it back in, so in case the power goes out, your pump would not be returning any water, and the natural siphon that would take effect from the pump that sucks water out of your tank, would essential drain the tank, or at least as much as the hose in the water is. Now I know nothing about sumps, as I only have a small space in which to put one, although like you would love to hide equipment somewhere. So I know what am I am trying to say, just may not be comming across as well as I want perhaps someone can elaborate on it.

Wow, that's confusing.  But I think you might be going for backsiphoning.  This is where, when the return pump cuts out, because there is a closed pipe from the pump to the below-water return outlet in the tank, water will siphon back into the sump down to the depth of that return outlet.

This isn't a worry if you do two things.  First, ensure that you sump is big enough and normally runs with the water low enough to take in that extra water without overflowing.  Second, if you have a deep return, is that you can drill a 1/4" hole in it a little bit below the waterline so that when the water level gets down there it lets in air and breaks the siphon.

Easy peasy.

[redbelly]

So have you drilled your tank yet