Algae frustrations

[Jeff1192]

So I've been EI dosing with pressurized CO2 for a couple of months now....but I just can't get my algae issues under control. I'm having real problems with hair algae, BBA and some other unknown algae. I think the unknown algae might be some sort of hair algae or diatom problem. This unknown algae only appears in my fine leaved plants and moss. It's slimy, really easy to remove and more brown than green. My BBA issues are almost completely on my huge piece of driftwood but I am getting some on mostly older plant leaf edges. I've also got a bad outbreak of green dust algae on my glass that I know I should leave until it starts going brown and then scrape off...but so far I haven't been able to be patient enough to leave it for the 2-3 weeks it takes. I'm REALLY trying to leave it alone this time (it's been about 2 weeks right now).

I started out dosing the following 3x per week:

-nitrates 3/4tsp
-potassium 1/4 tsp
-phosphates 3/16 tsp
-trace 1/4 tsp

Since my algae problems started I have done the following:

-reduced lighting to 8hrs per day
-increased phosphate dosing to 1/4 tsp 3x per week
-decreased trace to 3/16 tsp
-added 3 powerheads to increase distribution of fertilizer and CO2.

I am planning on removing the really big piece of driftwood and replacing it with a smaller one so this will remove almost all my BBA problems. I just don't like the look of the piece as much with all the plants. Plus taking it out leaves me room for way more plants!

I am getting really good plant growth but the algae is driving me nuts. I'm starting to wonder if my water has a lot of trace minerals out of the tap. It's city water, but I'm in the country and the source is an underground lake. It's very hard kH and gH of 12-13 out of the tap. I'm wondering if I should try dropping my trace to 1/16tsp....or cutting it out all together for a bit.

Any other ideas or suggestions?

Thanks,

Jeff

[jetstream]

I'm trying to chip in my opinions. Since you have hair algae, I'll suggest you take a close look and give a feel on them. Is the algae looks shiny or looks dull. If you try to pull it out, is it very easy or you have to use a bit of pressure? If the colour of the algae looks dull and you could pull it out very easily. Theoretically, you're winning the battle!

How you rate the growth rate of your stem plants? Fast or slow? You mentioned you dose your tank 3 times a week. You can try an experiment on your tank, instead of 3 times a week, does all your nitrate and potassium all at once and monitor your plant's grow rate. If you are doing the right approach, there's high chance it'll happened in 1 morning when you check your plants, you'll see lots of nice green new grows came out at the top. The reason of this experiment is, you need to find out you were dosing too much or too little. Every tank has its unique character and couldn't just use 1 fixed rule and apply on all.

You mention you also dose potassium. What form of potassium is it?

Above just my own opinion and I hope could help you win the battle. Sure other peoples could give you more helpful advices. The last suggestion I can give is, just change 1 parameter at a time. You need to give time for the tank to response!

Good luck! No algae no fun!

[charlie]

To throw another thought in the mix, i`m wondering if your bio load is on the heavy side & is creating a high level of nutrients in combination with the supplementry dosing, some more food for thought 
Regards

[Jeff1192]

My stem plants are growing pretty fast. I'm trimming out my limnophila every week at least. The hair algae is usually pale green to brown and some is almost white. It pulls away pretty easily.

As far as my bioload goes it is definitely on the higher end (lots of small fish). I'm assuming that you're asking because this is a bad thing? Any suggestions for that beyond the obvious thinning out of my bioload (which I'm not against either). I may have some fish cheap in the classifieds in the next day or 2!

Thanks,

Jeff

[charlie]

My stem plants are growing pretty fast. I'm trimming out my limnophila every week at least. The hair algae is usually pale green to brown and some is almost white. It pulls away pretty easily.

As far as my bioload goes it is definitely on the higher end (lots of small fish). I'm assuming that you're asking because this is a bad thing? Any suggestions for that beyond the obvious thinning out of my bioload (which I'm not against either). I may have some fish cheap in the classifieds in the next day or 2!

Thanks,

Jeff

Small type fish ( tetra`s etc) don`t really add a lot on your bio load, but that said if your bio load is high , you can reduce your dosing , providing you have determine  your nutrient level is too high

[fischkopp]

Another thing: don't change too many thing at once and wait a little (2-4 weeks) so that the plants can adapt. In your initial post you listed a lot of measures already and I think there is not much else to 'tune'. More import now is to follow Jetstreams suggestion and observe how the plants react to all this and either tune in one way or the other. Algae frustrates us because it comes over night and goes away very slowly, but eventually the plants will kick in and leave no room for algae. The greatest challenge in aquatic gardening is still patience.

I assume that your drop checker shows a nice yellowish green ...

... I hooked mine up this weekend and got a nice blue after 24h - explaining all my recent outbreaks

[Jeff1192]

I think I might thin out my bioload a bit anyways. I think the next thing I'll try seeing as my hair algae problems seemed to get better as I dropped my dosing of trace elements, is I'll drop them some more and see what happens. I can't wait to get this all figured out. And yes my drop checker is definitely good....it's quite yellow by the time my lights come on.

Jeff

[barefoot_golfer]

Hi Jeff,

I feel your frustration, having been in the same situation with my 220G tank.
Not proclaiming to be an expert nor well studied internet efishOnado ....LOL
Just sharing my experience on how I took care of a similar algae frustration and now enjoy virtually algae free.

I reduced/eliminated my ferts, changed lighting cycle, changed water technique, added aquarium salt, spot dosed algae with hydrogen peroxide and hand python vac 3 days after as part of new water change technique.

Reduce ferts to nothing, added small doses of excel, along with monitoring bottled CO2 time on and Air bubble cycle on/off.

The lighting cycle change was to change CF & MH on/off time, cycling lights to a shorter on time, everything (5.2wpg) on for only 2 hours.

The water change technique of 20% of total tank went from a 2 Way tap adaptor device to the old hand vac /w bucket on the removal of excess debris from the bottom, vac plants being effected and a little drift wood crapping to remove the BBA.      On the replenishment, I cleaned the bucket and used only (1) bucket mixed with Prime to condition replacement tap water with the rest of the replenishment
water from the python via tap method.     This technique gave me a chance to find new hiding place for settled debris and low circulation points in the tank.     Now, awaiting Hydor circ pumps to increase circ.

The hydrogen spot dosed every 3-4 days, I used 15 ml in a plastic syringe and spot doses each effected
plant with 45 ml total in my 33G and can't recall total dose in the 220G.   

Let me know how you make out with the algae.

Cheers,
Ron

[Thumpya]

I reduced/eliminated my ferts, changed lighting cycle, changed water technique, added aquarium salt, spot dosed algae with hydrogen peroxide and hand python vac 3 days after as part of new water change technique.

The hydrogen spot dosed every 3-4 days, I used 15 ml in a plastic syringe and spot doses each effected
plant with 45 ml total in my 33G and can't recall total dose in the 220G.   

Let me know how you make out with the algae.

Cheers,
Ron

SO let me guess this right. You used Hydrogen Peroxide spotted directly on your plants with algae? How does that affect fish?
I am also having the same troubles as Jeff there. Although I'm having a bit of trouble with BGA, and I'm NOT over feeding I've actually increased my lighting to 2 T5 bulbs (going for 3, to get that 3 w.p.g) it has helped a bit. Will the peroxide help with BGA?

[fischkopp]

SO let me guess this right. You used Hydrogen Peroxide spotted directly on your plants with algae? How does that affect fish?
I am also having the same troubles as Jeff there. Although I'm having a bit of trouble with BGA, and I'm NOT over feeding I've actually increased my lighting to 2 T5 bulbs (going for 3, to get that 3 w.p.g) it has helped a bit. Will the peroxide help with BGA?

H2O2 works quite well against algae using a spot treatment. But you have to be carefull, it can/will affect (harm to kill) sensitive plants. Do NOT use H2O2 if you keep sensitive fish.

Using H2O2 has limited success fighting BGA. While other methods like blackout and so on are preferred to fight BGA first, I find that the most effective treatment is Erythromycin (kind of medication, available as EM-tablets). Be aware that using EM tabs will harm your bio-filter and do not prevent BGA from coming back if you don't find the root cause, which is mostly low flow combined with low nitrates.

Hope this little bit of threadjacking helps

[Jeff1192]

So here's an update:

-I removed the large piece of driftwood....it was so big I think it might have been impeding good water flow around the tank
-I dropped traces to 1/16 3x a week

The algae is much better but my plants are showing iron defficiency (new growth is pretty pale). So I'm bringing my traces back up to 3/16 and we'll see what happens.

Here's my fish load for the tank do you guys think it's high?

-rummynose tetras x8
-cardinal tetras x8
-blue rams x4
-farlowella x2
-small pleco (possibly tiger pleco)
-otos x2-4
-CPDs x10
-male betta
-female betta x2
-cherry shrimp
-amano shrimp x6-8
-bamboo shrimp x4
-hatchets x4
-zebra snails x3
-red ramshorn snails x8-10

I know there are quite a few fish but they're all pretty small. Let me know what you think of the bio load in terms of size.

Thanks.

Jeff

[charlie]

I think your fish load in that tank is nothing to worry about, like you said , they are small & no big impact on your bio load.
Regards

[fischkopp]

I agree, that isn't a big bio-load at all. I think that there is even room for some more ... like a larger school of cardinals or rummynose.

[jetstream]

Good to know your tank improved alot. I'll say Iron deficiency is the last parameter that will show up on your plants. If you have Heteranthera zosterifolia in your tank, the tip of Heteranthera zosterifolia will turn black if you tank is lack of trace/iron. If your plants grow fast enough, you will see pale green on the new shoots. Most of the time, you'll notice that in the morning while having your coffee and checking your tank at the same time! What kind of plants showing pale colour in the new grow?

[Jeff1192]

I noticed it first on my blyxa japonica and an aponogeton crispus. I'm noticing it now on my macaranda as well.

Jeff

[jetstream]

From my own experience, Blyxa japonica is not that demanding on Trace. Do they have good root? For Aponogeton crispus, bulb plants are considered root feeder. For Macaranda, it requires difference parameters treatement. I can help you turn it to nice super red colour, but your others plants will curse on me!

Do you have Hygrophila polysperma or sunset in your tank? You mentioned you have above average lighting on your tank, if you do have them, what colour showing on their leaves and do you see white vein on them? I'm not an expert, but there's chance either one of your NPK is on the low side. Maybe others able to chip in more suggestions.

[charlie]

I agree with jetstream , Blyxa is not a high demand on traces, but the plant by nature will tend to go to a bronze /yellowish tone under some conditions, Macandra on the other hand tend to look better when the nitrates are on the lower end of the scale ( and even redder with Jetstream drug   ).
That said i would get your traces back up to the recommended dose & observe the tank for a bit before making anymore changes.
Regards

[Jeff1192]

Yeah I brought the traces back up yesterday. I'm just going to keep dosing as is for a couple of weeks and see what happens.

Thanks guys.

Jeff

[Jeff1192]

Ok so my traces are back up to 3/16tsp and have been for 11 days now. It took a little while but everything is growing well again. But I'm still getting thread algae or green hair algae (not sure which) and I'm getting what I think is green spot algae on the lower leaves of my limnophila aromatica, rotala indica and on my white rocks in the substrate. I was ready on Tom Barr's forum and there were suggestions that cleaning out canister filters that hadn't been done in a while can help algae issues. So last week I did the one canister and tonight I did the other. I don't think I want to tweak anything quite yet as I just started getting good growth on everything going again in the last 4 or 5 days and I know I need to be patient. But I am open to ideas or suggestions.

Thanks guys.

Jeff

[Jeff1192]

Ok so here's an update:

-I started dosing traces 2x per week instead of 3 and I increased potassium dosing to 3/8tsp to try and clear up the bit of green spot algae I was getting

-I have been doing this since mid December

The hair algae doesn't really seem to have changed, I'm still getting it. The green spot is a little better. My plant growth is pretty good but I would say it is slower than when I was dosing traces 3x per week.

I had done some reading and there were suggestions that hair algae was a result of too much iron. However, reading Tom Barr's page, he disagrees with this. I figured I'd get an iron test kit as I figured my iron was too high. So I tested today and my iron barely registers on the test kit (it was about 0.2). I used the Seachem test kit that also measures chelated iron. I also tested my tap water and it registered 0 iron. So I now know for sure my hair algae is not caused by too much iron.

Any chance the hair algae could be from a lack of iron or some other trace element? Or any other ideas? I'd love to clear up this last algae issue but I don't want to change too much at once.

Thanks,

Jeff