researching SW tanks

[Thumpya]

I'm defiantly thinking about getting into the salt water tanks.(or tank that is) I got a few questions, you've probably heard them all....

Do you think a 29gal is a good size for me to start?
Will I be able to use any of my equip from fresh water?
anyone ever heard of a tank with just the fish? or I guess the purpose would be to make the fish feel at home so Live Rock for sure then. 

I'm gonna have tons of questions. I hope I can get some ideas

Thumpya

[groupie02]

a 29g is an awesome size for a FOWLR (Fish Only With Live Rock). You can obviously re-use the tank. If you want, you can use the mechanical filter but only for water circulation. Live rock provides the most of the filtration required. With a FOWLR, you can re-use your lights as fish do not require any special lighting.  Heaters can be re-used too.  I'm not sure what else you could re-use but I'm sure there's plenty of stuff.

Cheers

[Funkmotor]

I think the most important piece of equipment that you can reuse is your wallet.   

Seriously, if you have a canister filter you might keep it to run carbon or other chemical media in an emergency, but I wouldn't run it all the time.  You want your filtration to be done by your live rock, skimmer and sand bed.  Power heads to circulate water, calculate about 20x water movement.  (29 gallons, aim for about 580GPH turnover from your powerheads.  Maxi-Jet's are cheap and reliable.) 

Any ammonia in a reef tank is deadly, nitrite is also deadly and nitrate should be kept under 20ppm.  For a fresh tank, that would be excellent, but in SW we aim for zero of all that...and undetectable phosphate.

Unlike FW, SW tanks almost demand a sump.  You could get away without one on your 29 as a start, but you'll have a lot of unsightly gear hanging on the back of your tank.  If you go sumpless, I'd recommend a hang-on refugium - either made from an AC110 or purpose-built.  I've made a few AC110 fuges, and one from an AC70, and they're worth it if you can't have a 'proper' refugium.

And get a skimmer.  No joke.  Don't buy a cheap one because they aren't worth the trouble.  A good HOB skimmer will really help you.

RO or RO/DI water is also, I would say, a necessity.  You don't do big water changes in SW tanks, and pollutants will build up over time and hurt you.  Do it right the first time...even if you buy the RO water.  With a 29, that would be manageable.  (With a larger tank, you'd need your own RO/DI for sure.)

Test kits.  Buy ones for marine/reef, and buy good ones.  I'm currently taken up with the Salifert tests, but Seachem make a "Marine Basic" kit that's good to get you going...Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Alkalinity and pH in one box...and I find it to be quite accurate.

As for going fish only, that's respectable.  But you *will* feel the pull of the reef, do not doubt it.  So from the start plan your equipment purchases to accommodate moving to a reef (ahem...skimmer!) and you'll save money in the long term.  Watch the for sale items on here, as there are deals to be had for those with patience.

Backup power.  A UPS or one of those NOMA backup power units from CDN Tire can keep your tank alive in a power outage...don't plug in everything.  I have one of the small 400W NOMA's and it can run a 100W heater and a Tunze powerhead for 8 hours or more.

The last thing I'll mention is patience.  You can make a FW tank fish-ready in a week or two.  Don't put so much as a snail in your SW tank for the first month...at least.  The only things that happen quick in SW are bad things.   

Hope that helps.  It's a helluva hobby, this salt thing.

[Hookup]

Nothing to add.  Funk said it all.

To re-state some of what Funk said that I believe is key and in-order of importance, according to me anyhow..LOL

1) Get a sump for your tank
2) Get a good protein skimmer, octopus is a good name
3) Setup a fuge (refuge)
4) Use carbon & phosphate reactors (removers)
5) Get RO/DI water
6) If you've got the money, throw an Ozone reactor/system in the mix

I would say if you can go bigger do so from the start.  29gal is nice, but you are limited in both quantity and size of fish.  75gal is great, and 120 is even better.   You can get some really nice big fish in a 120gal tank...

Anyhow, you can run a good system with 1 & 2 above only so do not get freaked out...  Like most things you can do it on a budget or bank-buster style.  Many systems are done on budgets and are excellent.

[Thumpya]

Right on. OK is RO/DI water, is that a filter to make better water for the marine tank ? or do I actually BUY the water? from LFS ('Big Al's'), I don't trust 'Pet "not so" Smart' 

Oh yeah what's the proper live rock ratio? 3lbs per gal? I guess that's if it's gonna be full but....  and lighting does it have to be different wattage?

ok what's a sump? is that a skimmer? nvm did some more research

Sorry Im really green 

[Hookup]

Great questions.  Let me take a stab.

1) Live rock.  Get some, say 50lbs and see what it looks like in your tank.  Smaller pieces are easier to work with when aquascaping, in my opinion.  If you can add more, you can always go get more.. if you buy too much... well i'm not sure if it can be returned.

2) RO/DI is a super-water filter.  Mainly used to get rid of nasty stuff in tap-water.  Chlorine, phosphate, silicate, etc, etc... Lots of hot-debate on if this is necessary or not.  In the end, if you have budget you should get one, no one will say that it is a bad thing...

3) lighting is important, but most important for corals.  Depending on the corals you wish to keep you'll need different "amounts" of light.  SPS (Small polyp Stony) Corals require the highest amount of light (typically) where as so called "soft corals" require less.   If your sticking with Fish-Only, then you'll want some color enhancing bulbs which someone on here can recommend better than I.

4) A "sump" is an area separate from your main tank where you do extra filtering/processing of your water.   Typically you'll put this under your tank in your tank-stand cabinet.  Water will flow down using an "overflow system" to the sump and be pumped back up to the MT using ... a pump.  Alternates to Sumps are to have/use hang on the back (HOB) filters, skimmers, etc.  Some systems, possibly yours, are better designed for this HOB style.

5) a Skimmer is a "machine" or device that removes gunk from your tank.  (lol)...  Technically it uses water bubbles (micro-bubbles) to allow for charged ions that are in various organic compounds to create a film around the micro-bubbles which float upwards in a "bubble column" until they burst.. this process continues and a gunky substance of organic mess builds at the top of the bubble column and eventually spills over into a catch-cup that will smell bad... and you clean weekly or so.  In ANY salt-system this is a pretty important piece of equipment... Oh, and it doesn't work in fresh-water...

6) good questions, all of them... keep them coming.

[Thumpya]

4) A "sump" is an area separate from your main tank where you do extra filtering/processing of your water.   Typically you'll put this under your tank in your tank-stand cabinet.  Water will flow down using an "overflow system" to the sump and be pumped back up to the MT using ... a pump.  Alternates to Sumps are to have/use hang on the back (HOB) filters, skimmers, etc.  Some systems, possibly yours, are better designed for this HOB style.

So a sump is not "necessarily" needed if I had a HOB skimmer /filters and such? Just more pleasing to the eye I guess

Do I have to drill holes in my tank? also what is this "Instant Ocean" I see for sale in BA's?

BTW thanks Hook for the info

[groupie02]

If you do not plan on having a sump, you will most likely not need holes drilled in your tank.

[Hookup]

So a sump is not "necessarily" needed if I had a HOB skimmer /filters and such? Just more pleasing to the eye I guess

Nope, not necessary at tall.  Typically they are cleaner looking than HOB and because of the extra room, you can get larger skimmers for sump-style vs HOB. at 29g this is not really a factor for you.

Do I have to drill holes in my tank? also what is this "Instant Ocean" I see for sale in BA's?

Holes would be useful for connecting a sump, but not necessary.  You can get pretty creative with plumbing using holes in your tank to keep the look of your tank to an absolute min which is nice.

Instant Ocean is a salt mix.  You'll need salt in this format for your tank.  Instant Ocean is an excellent salt, not all salts are created equal, and the debates are many, but generally IO (instant ocean) is considered a good to excellent salt.

[RoxyDog]

See, I don't necessarily agree with the previous posts, sorry guys.    Funkmotor and Hookup gave good advise, but you don't NEED all that stuff.  It depends on what you want to do with your tank.  If you simply want to give SW a go without too much expense, then buy some salt, some live rock, a powerhead or two and give it a go.    These things would be used on a high tech reef anyway, so you won't be out any money if you want to do more later on.  Here's my take on starting a 29gal SW tank from FW - fish only, not reef:

1)  Use your lights and heater and buy some powerheads.  You can use your EMPTY filter for circulation, but most people just buy powerheads.  If you have test kits for FW, chances are they can be used for SW too, take a look.
2)  Buy substrate and 1lb of live rock per gallon to start.  Get nice porous rock, and remember you can always add more.  Don't pile it in one big pile, try to leave spaces in between the rocks for water flow.  But also remember, there IS a such thing as too much live rock, your fishies need a place to swim.   
3) Mix up the saltwater (Instant Ocean is a good salt) to 1.024 (or whatever is acceptable for a fish only tank, I have a reef so I'm not sure) and you're done.  That's right, I said you're done. 
4) Have patience and wait.  Cycle your tank and then add clean up crew and then fish.
5) You must do regular waterchanges (weekly) for maintenance.  If you forget, you can run into trouble.

My point is you don't need a sump, a skimmer, a fuge, carbon or ozone for a fish only tank.  Or for a simple reef for that matter.  They are all good things yes, but you can do without.  Heck you don't even need R/O water, although it helps.  Research everything they have said then decide what you want to do...you cannot go wrong buying a good skimmer or drilling your tank and installing a sump, or adding a fuge if you have the money to do so.  But it's not a necessity.

[groan]

I have to go with Roxy on this. I ran 3 tanks with simple equipment and had little to no losses due to bad water.

The key is water changes and water quality. I am luck that my tap water in orleans seems to be very reef friendly. I was buying tones of RO water and decided to give it a go with tap. i've had no problems. my nitrates/ites are nil and phosphates are 0.

I had a 10, 30 and a 55 all running with no sump, no fuge and no reactors. I only started using a phosban reactor because I am dosing my tank (to feed corals a different way) that can cause phosphates to rise.

I am moving to a 75 gallon tank and want to set up a sump with skimmer for it because I am somewhat lax on my water changes. I have had the tank up now for a week with nothing more than powerheads in it and everyone is doing fantastically.

Start simple. dont overthink it and you will be good to go.

[Adam]

I will agree with the above, but maybe I will throw in the golden middle ground here.

If you can swing it, put a sump in.  You'll have to drill holes in your tank to do it, or buy a Hang On the Back (HOB) Overflow. Drilling is safer and foolproof, but a little daunting to first timers.  I did mine a month ago or so and it went swimmingly.  You don't need to get a skimmer or any other equipment for it except put your heater there, but having it if you ever want to use it, you will have it.  Buy the sump used and you won't spend much money on it except for some plumbing.

Don't buy stepping stone equipment...what I mean is that if you buy something, buy good stuff and only once.  Don't get a light that you can afford now, then later on down the road, buy another light. 

Get a refractometer.  It's to measure salt levels.  Hydrometers (swing arm doohickey) suck.

Other than that, you can set it up really easily with live rock (LR), sand (or not), a powerhead (or use your filter already), heater, and whatever lighting you already have.  There is no set amount for lbs/gallon for aquariums.  I've seen it done equally well with very little rock and quite a bit.  The more rock, the more hiding places, but the less, more open swimming spaces.

[Hookup]

I also agree with all of the above, mostly.  I've not done the "budget" setup personally so cannot comment on the lack of issues.  Back 10yrs ago, when I was in a different city, I was on the "budget" system and had no end of problems with algae, ICK, fish dying, it was a nightmare.  I have seen many people on this forum posting saying that "budget" systems work fine.  Guess there's no way to know unless you try.

Also, to me the basics are still, and will be;
1) Live Rock
2) Circ Pumps
3) Skimmer

Everything else is definitely "upgrades" when talking FISH ONLY.  Skipping on a skimmer would mean many more water-changes and I can see why people say it is optional, but I'm ultra-lazy and skimmers help.

[kennyman]

It is all about peoples expectations. But that is not really fair to new hobbyists because they don't really know what they want. Their ideas about the hobby will change as they go. One thing for sure is this hobby takes time. Once you build a tank, be it fancy or cheep, it takes time for everything to adapt to life in the new situation. Even if you take 10 grand and layout your system for three months before building it, you would still do it differently the next time, and the time after that, and the time after that too!

So go slow and learn as much as you can along the way. Some people are in it for the technology, some for the biology, others just because its cool.


Personlay at this point in the hobby I think fish only systems are very neat and the minimal LR with more advanced concepts like Plenum Filtration are very attractive ideas. To keep a marine aquarium interesting enough to stick with for several years I would want to go with pretty special fish. The most amazing fish in this hobby like to eat corals as snacks so you don't see them in the generic reef wall tanks we all keep. But those fish need a lot of room. The big angels, puffers, cowfish, groupers and wrasses are some of the ideas I would look at. Way too big for a 30 gal. I had a 37 low teck and I kept a pair of clowns and blenny. Now I have a 90 so I added a small tang, pair of yellow watchmen and a dwarf angel. Definitely not enough to keep my interest if it was fish only.

So if your considering fish only concider some of the fish we cant/wont keep in a reef. Then look at what kind of volume they need to be happy.

[Hookup]

Even if you take 10 grand and layout your system for three months before building it, you would still do it differently the next time, and the time after that, and the time after that too!

This is true and i just do not think it can be said better.  If you want to try-out SW, then jump in to the pool and check it out.  Surfing OVAS can net you some cheap items to keep costs lower.  Of course if you won the lottery, then you can add a 6ft x 3ft x 2ft starefire glass tank for me too!

[White Lightning]

Excellent thread to read considering I am about to start a FOWLR. I am going to be getting CA1's 65 gallon tank (posted on this site) and starting up my first saltwater tank hopefully by this weekend. I can't wait!