Discussions vr. Classifieds

[fischkopp]

Thanks for bringing this up, Dan. I think this thread raises a few valid question marks. And the big question in the end is: What do we - members - want OVAS to be in the future?

Everybody probably agrees that the web-site/forum pushed the club forward, made it bigger by reaching more people. It has become THE face of OVAS, it is the major place to hang out, share ideas, ask for advise ... and of course using the classifieds (CF) to keep MTS affordable for everyone. Yes, everybody likes a deal, I am not any different. But I also get the impression that the CF becomes the most important part of this website, that many don't seem to care about the club behind it - there are so many new 'users' that just sign up to this site for the purpose of posting in the CF. And it is a fact that the CF creates the most traffic these days. This site has become an aquatic flee-market.

The increase in quantity (members, posts, site hits ...) due to our fleemarket goes along with a degradation in quality of this forum. I have been around long enough to get that impression and know that I am not alone with it. If we don't do anything about the promotion of what OVAS stands for, we will end up as another link between usedottawa and kijiji. But how to do that? We should get rid of those, who don't participate (but not those, who are just lurking for any reason), and exclude them from the CF. One way of doing this is that an user must have a certain rank by posting (hatchling ->fry), showing that s/he participates. Another one is a 4 weeks break period before you are allowed to post in the CF. Being an OVAS member is not essential, although this would be the ultimate solution.

I know that the common argument against this idea is that the site becomes less popular; this is correct, but we don't care about that, because one less post in the CF wouldn't reduce the value of this club. Another argument is, that OVAS members could actually benefit from all the CF posting. Maybe, but honestly: don't you check usedottawa and kijiji right after marking all the CF posts on OVAS as read? - Ok, I don't, but I think of myself as an exception here.

In the end it all depends on the member/users how each one wants to contribute to OVAS or what he wants out of this community. I understand that people move on and get busy with life, which is the reason why many stopped participating on the OVAS website. We can't compete, and shall not try, to compete with big international and specialized forums. But we can become a group of local fish geeks that share ideas, that help each other out, that meet up for a fishy talk and that throw a few events for all those fish keepers that have yet to become a geek, too.

So what did I talk about? Let's limit the access to the classifieds as one part to increase the quality of OVAS!

More ideas to come ...

[RoxyDog]

it's half the battle charlie.    but it wouldn't allow members to access anything being sold by a non member.

And the big question in the end is: What do we - members - want OVAS to be in the future?

Yes, what DO you (not you specifically, and not ALL of you  ) want to be?    And are you willing to pay for it?  And are you willing to participate?  To make a great club you need to be involved.  Not just sit back and wait for things to happen, or wait for the Exec to lay it out for you.  And then wonder why it's not the same?  One thing that is not the same - people volunteering and particpating.  How many of you don't come to meetings b/c it's not a topic directly involving you, instead it's a broad topic that can reach all fish-keepers?  How many of you dressed up for the Halloween costume contest for example?  How many people volunteer to help out at auctions or membership drives?  A few do, usually the same few.    Am I ranting yet?   

[charlie]

Oh BTW i`m reading this thread as a website discussion topic taking up residence in the OVAS club discussion forum, which brings up a another mystrey, why is the CLUB DISCUSSION open for discussion to non members?
Don`t read me wrong, i have nothing personal against non members  

[charlie]

it's half the battle charlie.    but it wouldn't allow members to access anything being sold by a non member.

to be frank , most of those i see on used Ottawa & Kijiji, anyhow i`ve said more than i promised myself i would a long time ago 

[Adam]

I meant peanut gallery as the people who post by merely saying 'OHHH CAN'T WAIT FOR PICTURES!!!' and the like...  No offence meant at all but it's not something I do too often.

[RoxyDog]

I know what you're saying. 

Maybe the Exec should present the idea of making OVAS discussions and the classifieds available to OVAS members and let the peeps decide.   

[Saltcreep]

But how would restricting the classifieds to members only change anything? Seems logical to me that any non-member that either makes or saves $20 through the classifieds would be happy to just throw the same amount to the club for a membership card and then just continue on doing what they've always done. The only change would be $20 more for the club coffers. Is that really what it's all about?

[charlie]

Thanks for bringing this up, Dan. I think this thread raises a few valid question marks. And the big question in the end is: What do we - members - want OVAS to be in the future?

Everybody probably agrees that the web-site/forum pushed the club forward, made it bigger by reaching more people. It has become THE face of OVAS, it is the major place to hang out, share ideas, ask for advise ... and of course using the classifieds (CF) to keep MTS affordable for everyone. Yes, everybody likes a deal, I am not any different. But I also get the impression that the CF becomes the most important part of this website, that many don't seem to care about the club behind it - there are so many new 'users' that just sign up to this site for the purpose of posting in the CF. And it is a fact that the CF creates the most traffic these days. This site has become an aquatic flee-market.

The increase in quantity (members, posts, site hits ...) due to our fleemarket goes along with a degradation in quality of this forum. I have been around long enough to get that impression and know that I am not alone with it. If we don't do anything about the promotion of what OVAS stands for, we will end up as another link between usedottawa and kijiji. But how to do that? We should get rid of those, who don't participate (but not those, who are just lurking for any reason), and exclude them from the CF. One way of doing this is that an user must have a certain rank by posting (hatchling ->fry), showing that s/he participates. Another one is a 4 weeks break period before you are allowed to post in the CF. Being an OVAS member is not essential, although this would be the ultimate solution.

I know that the common argument against this idea is that the site becomes less popular; this is correct, but we don't care about that, because one less post in the CF wouldn't reduce the value of this club. Another argument is, that OVAS members could actually benefit from all the CF posting. Maybe, but honestly: don't you check usedottawa and kijiji right after marking all the CF posts on OVAS as read? - Ok, I don't, but I think of myself as an exception here.

In the end it all depends on the member/users how each one wants to contribute to OVAS or what he wants out of this community. I understand that people move on and get busy with life, which is the reason why many stopped participating on the OVAS website. We can't compete, and shall not try, to compete with big international and specialized forums. But we can become a group of local fish geeks that share ideas, that help each other out, that meet up for a fishy talk and that throw a few events for all those fish keepers that have yet to become a geek, too.

So what did I talk about? Let's limit the access to the classifieds as one part to increase the quality of OVAS!

More ideas to come ...

Wow i somehow missed this post before my postings, well said , thanks for your input.

[charlie]

it's half the battle charlie.    but it wouldn't allow members to access anything being sold by a non member.

Yes, what DO you (not you specifically, and not ALL of you  ) want to be?    And are you willing to pay for it?  And are you willing to participate?  To make a great club you need to be involved.  Not just sit back and wait for things to happen, or wait for the Exec to lay it out for you.  And then wonder why it's not the same?  One thing that is not the same - people volunteering and particpating.  How many of you don't come to meetings b/c it's not a topic directly involving you, instead it's a broad topic that can reach all fish-keepers?  How many of you dressed up for the Halloween costume contest for example?  How many people volunteer to help out at auctions or membership drives?  A few do, usually the same few.    Am I ranting yet?   

No you are not ranting yet , please do say more.

[charlie]

But how would restricting the classifieds to members only change anything? Seems logical to me that any non-member that either makes or saves $20 through the classifieds would be happy to just throw the same amount to the club for a membership card and then just continue on doing what they've always done. The only change would be $20 more for the club coffers. Is that really what it's all about?

With all due respect , what prevents them from doing so now?

[RoxyDog]

But how would restricting the classifieds to members only change anything? Seems logical to me that any non-member that either makes or saves $20 through the classifieds would be happy to just throw the same amount to the club for a membership card and then just continue on doing what they've always done. The only change would be $20 more for the club coffers. Is that really what it's all about?

I think people feel it would cut down on those who just swing in and sell their stuff, who don't ever contribute...using our resources?    That logical point doesn't happen too often.  People don't say "oh I saved $20 here, I think I'll use it to buy a membership".  It might happen sometimes I suppose?  Or is that not what you're saying...

And just so everyone knows, the club's coffers are VERY important.  Do we want to be a money grabbing club?  NO way!  Do we need people to spend their $20 to keep this club going?  YES way!  We need to pay for our meeting room including snacks and door prizes.  We have to pay to run a giant auction.  We need to pay speakers including accomodations, flights, and other fees related to that.  We need to pay for this WEBSITE.  So if it sometimes seems to be about money, well that's because sometimes it IS.    Or we'd have no club.

[beowulf]

Thanks for bringing this up, Dan. I think this thread raises a few valid question marks. And the big question in the end is: What do we - members - want OVAS to be in the future?

Everybody probably agrees that the web-site/forum pushed the club forward, made it bigger by reaching more people. It has become THE face of OVAS, it is the major place to hang out, share ideas, ask for advise ... and of course using the classifieds (CF) to keep MTS affordable for everyone. Yes, everybody likes a deal, I am not any different. But I also get the impression that the CF becomes the most important part of this website, that many don't seem to care about the club behind it - there are so many new 'users' that just sign up to this site for the purpose of posting in the CF. And it is a fact that the CF creates the most traffic these days. This site has become an aquatic flee-market.

The increase in quantity (members, posts, site hits ...) due to our fleemarket goes along with a degradation in quality of this forum. I have been around long enough to get that impression and know that I am not alone with it. If we don't do anything about the promotion of what OVAS stands for, we will end up as another link between usedottawa and kijiji. But how to do that? We should get rid of those, who don't participate (but not those, who are just lurking for any reason), and exclude them from the CF. One way of doing this is that an user must have a certain rank by posting (hatchling ->fry), showing that s/he participates. Another one is a 4 weeks break period before you are allowed to post in the CF. Being an OVAS member is not essential, although this would be the ultimate solution.

I know that the common argument against this idea is that the site becomes less popular; this is correct, but we don't care about that, because one less post in the CF wouldn't reduce the value of this club. Another argument is, that OVAS members could actually benefit from all the CF posting. Maybe, but honestly: don't you check usedottawa and kijiji right after marking all the CF posts on OVAS as read? - Ok, I don't, but I think of myself as an exception here.

In the end it all depends on the member/users how each one wants to contribute to OVAS or what he wants out of this community. I understand that people move on and get busy with life, which is the reason why many stopped participating on the OVAS website. We can't compete, and shall not try, to compete with big international and specialized forums. But we can become a group of local fish geeks that share ideas, that help each other out, that meet up for a fishy talk and that throw a few events for all those fish keepers that have yet to become a geek, too.

So what did I talk about? Let's limit the access to the classifieds as one part to increase the quality of OVAS!

More ideas to come ...

I thought about something like that, either a month or two before you can post in classifieds, which allows people to still pm if they want to buy something, but cannot post something of their own.  Either that or a minimum of 20 posts or something similar.

[Saltcreep]

I think people feel it would cut down on those who just swing in and sell their stuff, who don't ever contribute...using our resources?    That logical point doesn't happen too often.  People don't say "oh I saved $20 here, I think I'll use it to buy a membership".  It might happen sometimes I suppose?  Or is that not what you're saying...

And just so everyone knows, the club's coffers are VERY important.  Do we want to be a money grabbing club?  NO way!  Do we need people to spend their $20 to keep this club going?  YES way!  We need to pay for our meeting room including snacks and door prizes.  We have to pay to run a giant auction.  We need to pay speakers including accomodations, flights, and other fees related to that.  We need to pay for this WEBSITE.  So if it sometimes seems to be about money, well that's because sometimes it IS.    Or we'd have no club.

Well, you would certainly be in a better position than I to say how often that happens. What I'm thinking is that if the only requirement to post in the classifieds is a paid membership, then it might happen more often if that was what was required to reach your target audience. I frequent many 'club' sites that have discussion forums. Of all the sites I go to, using or contributing to the forums is free while membership in the club may or may not be.

[RoxyDog]

People will not pay $20 just to be able to post in the classifieds IMO.  And even if they did, I personally don't want that even if it does help the coffers.  I hope that's not how I was coming across.  I want to see memberships paid for by people who care about the club.  People like in this thread...you obviously all care at least a little.  I never want to force people to pay to talk about their fish.  Instead it's nice for people to volunteer to support the club which helps them talk about their fish.

[Sue]

which brings up a another mystrey, why is the CLUB DISCUSSION open for discussion to non members?

One reason it was left open, is that the club discussion area, is the area of the forum that non members of the the club post things like 'where do you meet?'
What is happening at the next meeting? How do I get a membership? Is my membership coming soon in the mail? Sure, the answers to many of these questions are on the site somewhere else, or could be emailed, but one wants to reach out to those new people, and it can be beneficial PR to have that kind of information repeated for all of us once in a while.

[dan2x38]

Everyone... well said awesome to get this input. RoxyDog I think you came across just fine.

For sure the club needs money or there would be no club. No exec. receives anything for helping this club along. I was part of the exec. for a short while and it is fun but a real challenge. Like Roxy said there are a lot of expenses for this club to exist.

People get turned off when they see postings in the classifieds only with a 17% or less contribution to discussions. Why would a newcomer be inticed to stay on board when there is nothing but plastic plants & dirty tanks to read about.

Recently I saw some newcomers who joined with many decades of experience. I want to hear what they have to say. So we need new website members & card holders joining who bring with them knowledge & questions - old & new hobbyist - the curious & returning but bumped classifieds with the same old stuff is of no interest to me.

Put a waiting period to post in the classifieds, then a limit to edit the same post to prevent bumping the $1 plastic plant ads 20 times, then a total limit on how many non-members can post per week and/or month. If some one is selling something for $1 over and over again I bet you they will not spend $20 to continue doing so.

Like FischKopp said so what if we loss website visits from buyers & sellers obviously not interested in the club or participating. It is quality not quantity. Let them post on UsedOttawa & Kiiji if they want to be part of something of valve meaning exchange & promotion of aquatic life then by all means welcome them and give access but not free rein in the classifieds.

Oh and the grabbing of the FF items by the same folks then reselling here or on UsedOttawa POs me big time. OR the same folks just grabbing everything FF than selling all their stuff is not being part of the club either. I don't post FF anymore b/c of that - I throw things out.

[kennyman]

Just one more bit of input from a former member.

http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=33409.0

A thread like that is not uncommon. Notice any members posting in it yet?

What value does your advertising on this site bring in? Do you have the balance sheet split up to know if the site supports club functions or the club has to support the site? Are you considering cutting off your nose to spite your face?

[dan2x38]

Just one more bit of input from a former member.

http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=33409.0

A thread like that is not uncommon. Notice any members posting in it yet?

What value does your advertising on this site bring in? Do you have the balance sheet split up to know if the site supports club functions or the club has to support the site? Are you considering cutting off your nose to spite your face?

I think I missed the boat... what is the link for and do not understand the questions?

[Brine]

I don't see any problems myself...
So what if someone only comes here to sell stuff? Cool, I like to buy stuff. We all like to buy stuff; it is part of the hobby...we buy, sell and trade stuff. We also trade information and ideas. Why would we want to limit any of that?
Perhaps I am not getting it but there is no problem as far as I can see.
I also don't see why someone posting something like "Oooh, I can't wait to see the pictures" should be seen as a comment from the "peanut gallery" It seems to me that such a comment would be a part of the discussions that some of us seem to think are "missing" or "lacking"
Perhaps someone could explain exactly what the problem is? I've read this thread a few times and still don't see a valid reason it should be a problem for people to come here and post a bunch of times selling stuff.
It seems to me that the same argument/solution comes up when one of us complains about a particular store...if you don't like it don't shop there. It works for me...I can't stand a few of the staff at one of our local stores so I don't shop there. If I didn't like the way the classifieds worked I wouldn't use them. No problem.

[kennyman]

I think I missed the boat... what is the link for and do not understand the questions?

It is to help provide some hard facts about this site and this club. Non member usage drives a good portion if not the lions share of this forum and limiting the non member access to post in the classifieds, which is what people are complain about for the most part, limits their usage which devalues the advertising revenue which creates a drain on the clubs finances to keep this quality of site running.

This site as a whole serves a much wider audience than the 50 or so people who attend meetings does. I would even be so bold as to say the majority of carded members paid the fee simply to get the discount and still don't give a hoot about the club.

One suggestion might be to make more than one level of membership available. A web membership that gives full access to the forum features. And another carded membership that gives the full web access and store discounts plus meeting and seminar admission. That is if you think that the web presence, and all the revenue from web advertising that comes in for the thousands of people who use this site and don't belong to the club proper, does not justify the site being open to everyone.