Discussions vr. Classifieds

[charlie]

And that is what this club is about, or I hope so anyway.    And that's why I think the website and the club are interconnected and that they should be.  AND that restricting isn't the way to go - but also we should be offering something to the people who are willing to put down their dollars to support the club (I feel the rock on one side and the hard place on the otherr ).  And it's also why I wonder why so many regulars that frequent the site don't buy memberships.  Anyone out there have a thought...?  I don't see us ever forcing website users to buy a membership, but WHY do so many not...?   

That is a good question madam VP, i can relate to Crumpets comments, i remember when i first found OVAS, i was also impressed by the  fellowship & help i had no hesitation in joining the club for 20.00, it was a way of giving back to a club that offerd me the oppurtunity to further enjoy my passion, it has nothing to do with discounts or meetings at that time, in fact i met a few people here on the site that never attended meetings or had access to LFS that offers a discount but saw the value of supporting a club that supported their hobby, that said any club will always have a few " why buy the cow if the milk is free" & OVAS sure have a lot of free milk 

[beowulf]

I just noticed something in the classifieds, and it is not the first time it happens, on the first page right now about 1/3 of the threads belong to two people....might be a good idea to save room etc to have people post items in the same thread and not start a new thread for each one.

[KLKelly]

Ok modify my post to stay on topic. The cat was way off topic I guess : )

[dan2x38]

Now this is what I am talking about - Discussion! Maybe my ideas are not the ones to implement. Maybe yours aren't! But I see from this discussion everyone agrees change is needed in some way. Whether it be the CF forum or not change is important. Nothing remains the same and when it does it usually begins to decay. Only when something continues growing does it stave off decay or decline... Crumpet I couldn't resist had to use my poetic license as well...

RoxyDog I agree that this site is from our dollars because the money goes to the OVAS treasury. How many sponsors do we have for this season. Will all those funds cover 100% the costs of the website? In past has every sponsorship dollar covered the website costs? That includes ISP, software updates, etc. It is just like paying taxes you cannot control were each or any dollar goes it all goes into the treasury? Our sponsors often donate products for our Giant Auction and those dollars go into the OVAS treasury. Members donate (I have) items to be sold to support the club can it be said none of that goes to the website maintenance.

I like the question of why regular users do not support our club but do benefit from it. We have members in other provinces and out of town that like Charlie said never come to meetings or use the discounts they just want to be part of a great club and support themselves. To support the club do the math it is less than $0.06/day annually. A few Starbucks, Second Cup, or Timmes coffees would pay for their support. God how many ppl. spend several hundred dollars to support a losing hockey team (Oh-Oh LOL) for 3 hours to see them loss? 

I joined OVAS not to save money. God I work for BA and get an employee discount. Most of my aquarium purchases are from there.

Yes Charlie that is another important point. Our sponsor's suffer decreased sales when we prompt an open flea market. If someone is selling fish, filters, lights, or whatever for less than 1/2 price why would anyone go to a LFS? Yes of course maintain and encourage the CF but not as a free for all flea market. Especially when it lessens what we are all about promoting aquatic life. OR is it easier to rewrite our mandate?

[Hookup]

Sorry for being direct, but somewhere along this thread I missed the point that you are trying to make Dan.  What is it that is "wrong" or needs fixing?

There are lots of "posts in this tread" about several aspects of the site, but in efforts to stay on-topic, maybe it would be a good idea to clarify what the topic is.  At least for me, I'm confused (as usual).  The title says Discussions vs Classifieds and your first post points to the fact that the site is heavily used as a classified-ad for aquarium related items.  Is that the problem?   

From others, it looked like the problem was that the amount of "discussion" was lacking from their perspective.  I took discussion to mean "knowledge sharing and advise from peers in the hobby".  Is that the problem?  Not enough discussion?

From the last few posts it looks like a discussion around where ovas $$ are spent vs the people (like me) who consume the value for free.  Is this the issue?

I'm not trying to offend anyone, especially someone who contributes so much to this site as you do, but I am confused.... maybe I just should have stayed in bed this morning.   

[dan2x38]

No it is great that you ask question and are straight forward that is what this site is all about. Glad you woke up but why not sooner? LOL I am as straight forward as I can be in a public forum...

Yes it is about discussion in the forum vr. amount of classifieds decreasing the quality of OVAS - making it basically a flea market. Did that clarify it? BUT in any discussion there are many including this one there are many topics related to that. The first being the classifieds is used in a large part by non card carrying members. They continue to post and post and post but contribute nothing to this website or the club (one in the same).

For instance take a look today in your the unread messages & classifieds - after you woke up - see who is posting and check their post counts. Click on their names and then check the stats where they post most often. Are they even troubling themselves to read this thread. It is primarily about them. Geeze did I say that out loud?

So yes the topic veers left and right but the main topic remains the same Discussions vr. Classifieds. Why money is discussed because we are discussing OVAS members and non OVAS club members. It is not the the non card carrying members contributing to the forums other then the CF that are of major concern here. That is what makes this site great actually and encouraged. This is often where new members come from.

Yes the question is out there why regulars don't pay to support the club that pays for this website? It is a fair question isn't it? Then the question of who pays for this site comes up whether it be the OVAS club or OVAS sponsors. Like mentioned it is one in the same. Check the URL "ovas.ca" not ovas-sponsors.ca.

Let's say on the main topic but as the OP I do not mind things going along lines that relate to the topic. After all aren't we doing what I was posting about in the first place?

[kennyman]

I let my membership lapse after four years because I began to question some of the actions of the club I was supporting. That seems to have passed and I am very glad to see a more positive and open executive. For me to become interested in resuming a carded status with OVAS I would like to see my funds directed more to the increased support of internet resources. The regular meetings and mini auctions serve a specific portion of the membership who have a common interest and I do not feel they reflect the greater community. I know they did at one time but I do not think that is the case any longer. I would expect the reality of the situation is sponsorship being drawn to the site by the thousand non-members, or non-participating members, helps to support the activities of the smaller core club members. The activities of the club for the small active membership would seem to benefit from association with the larger public face of OVAS.  

The evolution of an Internet based community has certainly influenced a small grass roots club like OVAS and I think it is for the better IF that small grass roots organization manages to keep its mandate for the good of the hobby and does not get lost in the blossoming new Internet community. I suppose this discussion is focusing around how to keep that from happening. I do not believe is is possible to keep the same club atmosphere of 30-50 people in a room with a thousand Internet based users. You cant just make every user a member for $20 and use the funds to rent a hall to auction off .50 cent cichlids and guppies for the 30 people who are into that kind of thing. I do not mean to belittle anyones interest in the hobby with that statement but that literally reflects a lot of what goes on in the rented hall each month. I know because I was once one of those hobbyists selling cihclids and rocks for a $1.


Here is a suggestion that I am sure someone has pitched previously at some time in the past.

Forum user status grants full access to public forums and limited access to website features.

Forum membership contributing member $10 annual fee grants full access to public and club forums plus expanded website features.

Club membership $25 annual fee grants full access to forum features and free access to hosted OVAS events.

[fischkopp]

Hookup, you brought up some good ideas. That's what this thread is about now.

It has started with the statement, that the CF are the major part of this site at the moment. And this site represents OVAS, which is and shall be more than that. At the same time OVAS is a club for members run by members, and it needs the support of these members to do so. And we all know that nothing runs without money, money is short, and that's why the CF is so popular ... ... and that's also the reason why members who support the club activities could find excessive use of the CF abusive as it doesn't really add much value to the club and the hobby. I personally don't like the fact that people just sign up to post a few items for sale. True is, that  lot of active members have left the board, making the forum more quiet in the end, and this is reflected in the impression, that the CF seem to be more popular than everything else on the site.

So I think that this discussions is about ideas of what we can improve the website and club for everyone, how we can encourage people to participate, how to move the focus away from the CF. The fish thingy shall be fun for everybody afterall - and it is even more if you can share it

[charlie]

I let my membership lapse after four years because I began to question some of the actions of the club I was supporting. That seems to have passed and I am very glad to see a more positive and open executive. For me to become interested in resuming a carded status with OVAS I would like to see my funds directed more to the increased support of internet resources. The regular meetings and mini auctions serve a specific portion of the membership who have a common interest and I do not feel they reflect the greater community. I know they did at one time but I do not think that is the case any longer. I would expect the reality of the situation is sponsorship being drawn to the site by the thousand non-members, or non-participating members, helps to support the activities of the smaller core club members. The activities of the club for the small active membership would seem to benefit from association with the larger public face of OVAS.  

The evolution of an Internet based community has certainly influenced a small grass roots club like OVAS and I think it is for the better IF that small grass roots organization manages to keep its mandate for the good of the hobby and does not get lost in the blossoming new Internet community. I suppose this discussion is focusing around how to keep that from happening. I do not believe is is possible to keep the same club atmosphere of 30-50 people in a room with a thousand Internet based users. You cant just make every user a member for $20 and use the funds to rent a hall to auction off .50 cent cichlids and guppies for the 30 people who are into that kind of thing. I do not mean to belittle anyones interest in the hobby with that statement but that literally reflects a lot of what goes on in the rented hall each month. I know because I was once one of those hobbyists selling cihclids and rocks for a $1.

Here is a suggestion that I am sure someone has pitched previously at some time in the past.

Forum user status grants full access to public forums and limited access to website features.

Forum membership contributing member $10 annual fee grants full access to public and club forums plus expanded website features.

Club membership $25 annual fee grants full access to forum features and free access to hosted OVAS events.

Kenny my friend , you sure have been away for a bit, the 30-50 has now grown to 60-80, a lot of new faces great presentations each meeting & fantastic one on one interaction between a bunch of people that share the same interest , from a guppy to clown fish, not to mention the auction prices are now minimum 2.00 for that rock & Guppy
You have to fill me in on this person & the quasi lecture & niche, i`m starting to have a complex  

[Hookup]

First, Thanks Dan for both the clarification and not taking any offense!  Second, get ready for a wall-of-text!

I have several thoughts to offer in addition to what has been posted.  These are my opinions so I'm not going to start each thought/sentence with .. in my opinion.. it's all just my opinion here...

First, OVAS is not about the classifieds, never was, never will be.  It's a side-effect and should be seen as such.  At best it is a way to attract new members, at its worse it takes up valuable air-space.  As for the suggested impact on retail sponsors, if people have things to sell they sell them, if not here, then somewhere so revenue is not really lost.  At least here the sponsors have some great access to a target audience to let us know weekend specials, new arrivals, and pre-ordering opportunities.  So-called "classified ad only people" still get exposed to that type of advertising, and therefore cannot be a bad thing.

Secondly, OVAS was started for like minded hobbiest to share stories, experiences and what-not.  This web-forum is an excellent evolution of that model which expands the origional group to a much broader target audience.  People joined because there was information they had to share, and information they wanted to gain.  This is the "grass-roots" of any club and I think OVAS would do well to focus on that fact by promoting the values and knowledge sharing, fun and camaraderie that makes any club a "club".

By looking at the posts, it seems that an over-whelming amount of people (in this thread) are pissed off at the people using this forum for their own personal garage-sales.  Understandable, I too get frustrated to see 5 times the volume of classified ad's day-in and day-out.  And yes, today is a VERY bad day for CF spam.  However, if we focus on the negative we will not accomplish much.  We have to focus on the positive, which in true "small club fashion" is the contribution of the members, and non-paying members to the club's origional goals and aspirations.  Knowledge sharing, fun and enjoying the hobby of aquarium ownership.

That was a very long-winded way of saying what I personally believe to be fact.  If you charge for access to this site the site will fail.  There are numerous free-access sites available and people will migrate.  If you devalue the classified ads, people will migrate.  Negative actions will yield a negative result.

However, if we promote the positive, by keeping the value of knowledge-sharing and letting others experiencing the hobby through other hobbiests eyes (and text) people well want to continue to contribute.  In short, if we want OVAS to be better, we have to make it better.  We cannot ban those or limit others and call it our success.

Finally, there has been good discussion on why people are not paying to be members.  I thought it appropriate to offer my side of the story.  Of course, for the first few months I was just getting my feet wet.  Had to check out this motley group and all that.  Quite quickly it was obvious that I was in the midst of a Fresh-Water crew with a few salties thrown in.    I posted from time to time, asked questions, tried to participate but the responses, at times, were far and few between.  So I said to my self.. "self, why would you pay to get limited responses on your questions, and attend fresh-water swap events?".   However...

Over time, I have come to realize that I am taking a lot from this site, the people on it and OVAS.  Please consider I joined in Sept. and I learn slowly.     The membership fee is minimal and the service of the forum/web site is worth it.  I feel if you do not support this service financially you are the one that suffers. (so yeah, membership fee in comming...lol)

Has anyone looked at a good-ratio of members to non-members for the site?  Is there a baseline out there of other sites that can be used to gauge us against?  Is there any reason to care?  If the club has enuf $$ to support the activities including this site, is it important to convert people to member-status?
   

[fischkopp]

I support kennyman's suggestion to declare mini-auctions as obsolete. Neither the seller nor the club benefits from close to free prices as much as is would justify the effort put into it by both partys. I personally don"t waste my time with it. The big auction is fun though, maybe just make two of those. I would keep the meetings though for presentations and the socializing part. Maybe we can find a more casual place in the future.

Another idea, that has been brought up in the salt-forum: The club could organize a "swap-event" - for both fresh and salt - commercial and private sellers. This way we would make more rare items available for everyone, and sellers can the price rather than hope for it ... sure it's going to be a lot of work, but it could be a success ...

[kennyman]

I'm not necessarily saying the mini options are obsolete. But that OVAS as whole is not really represented by the niche group they do service. The question was asked why not be a full member, and the simplified version of my answer would be because a large part of the cost to run the club goes to monthly 50% meeting 50% mini auction, nither of which I find usefull anymore.

[RoxyDog]

I am really enjoying this thread. 

IMO, OVAS is NOT a bunch of FW people with a few salties thrown in anymore.    A lot of us have both FW and SW *and* our Programs Chairdude has tried and succeeded in bringing people to speak who can address both side of the hobby.  I'm sure there are @ least a few people here who would answer "I don't have a membership b/c I only keep SW", but I don't *get* that @ all.   

Anyway...the club does have enough money to support the site and meetings, and hopefully it always will.  But you aren't paying to "use the site" or "get responses to your questions" or "to sell and buy things" or "to get discounts" or even "to see speakers", you're paying to support the hobby and our club and to be a part of this crazy band of fish geeks.    I'm glad that you've seen the error of your ways and are coughing up your $20!   heehee  Hopefully soon you'll make it to a meeting too!  And that's part of it also...it's great to see people come out to talk to one another, to talk fish without someone giving them that "oh god your talking about fish again aren't you?" look.    And to come to meetings, you HAVE to be a member (after 2 of them anyway).

Back on topic (sort of) we do need to change and evolve and figure out what works for OVAS to keep the site and the meetings fun and interesting for everyone.  To do that we need ideas, discussion, volunteers, etc and to sometimes change the rules to allow for that.  And we as an Executive body are here to make decisions in the best interest of the paying members, not everyone who uses this site - although we do try to please everyone as best we can.   

[groan]

I too let my membership lapse (mainly due to almost getting out of the hobby, a sea hare saved me), but my post count, you can see that i do contribute.
I'll probably get a new one soon.
Regardless, discussion vs classifieds, someone mentioned a easy fix, and if i am remembering right, is easily done in this forum admin. Make it impossible for someone to post an ad until they reach 50+ posts. In order to be a contributing member, and to be eligible to use the classifiedes one needs to do both.

To me, and not to restrict those who do want knowledge, but can't partake in the CLUB activities, this is an easy fix.

To me, the other option of having a tiered membership sounds good, but is an administrative headache. $10 for "online" membership and $20 for club membership means cards for some but not all, then again you'd have to differentiate between the 2 groups, and that meands more permissions in the forum, plus policing the members that show up for meetings more than once.

There is a lot of great discussion going on here, and maybe it's time for a canadian fish market online...hmmm, just what i need, another website.

[KLKelly]

Make them be a sponsor 

[markw]

Make it impossible for someone to post an ad until they reach 50+ posts. In order to be a contributing member, and to be eligible to use the classifiedes one needs to do both.

Unfortunately, if someone wanted to get around that they could "cram" 50 posts in a few minutes without contributing anything worthwhile.

[dan2x38]

The meetings are awesome if you don't come that is your free choice. Like Roxy said it is place to talk fish without someone rolling their eyes again at you or me when hearing more fish dribble - to them that is. As for the auctions I like them they are fun. Occasionally you get that rare plant or cool deal. If there was more than one Giant Auction it would not be as special and I think less successful. Once a year is something to wait for... takes me that long to save the cash any ways, especially when I have to save for my yearly membership.... kidding easy now... 

Last season the paying members shelled out over $4000 for one speaker Anthony Calfo to speak at a boring old meeting. The club cannot always do that. Nor can the club always bring in a speaker like that. From the paying members there was quite a sum so the exec. decided some of it needed to be spent since we are a non-profit.

So the paying members drive this club. The paying members are the exec. the exec are the ones to maintain the website, contact the sponsors, set-up the Giant auction, monthly meetings, etc. etc. etc. So why are the so called minority doing the lions share of the work... no not the lions share but all of it... 

Let's not forget this is not about card carrying members vr. non paying members this is about promoting the club and our hobby. What is the club? The members are. OVAS existed long before this website & Internet. Yes the web widens the horizons of our hobby and our membership but it is not the club nor does it drive the club.

[fischkopp]

Regardless, discussion vs classifieds, someone mentioned a easy fix, and if i am remembering right, is easily done in this forum admin. Make it impossible for someone to post an ad until they reach 50+ posts. In order to be a contributing member, and to be eligible to use the classifiedes one needs to do both.

To me, and not to restrict those who do want knowledge, but can't partake in the CLUB activities, this is an easy fix.

I did maybe with a bit lower count though ...

Unfortunately, if someone wanted to get around that they could "cram" 50 posts in a few minutes without contributing anything worthwhile.

A moderator can step in if someone really does this.

[dan2x38]

Groupie02 correct me if I am wrong but can scripts not be used with this website software? If so wouldn't limiting a non-member to 5 posts/week by using simple script IF statement - If member Then post Else Posts => 5 IF NOT Post.. or am I over simplifying?

[Fishnut]

I'll add my 2 cents to this discussion.  I apologize if I'm being redundant because I stopped reading posts after page 2.

I'm bored with the website!!!  I have started to log on daily lately because I realized that I've missed the last couple of Breakfasts and I was sad about that.  I'm a member because I like the people.  There's nothing keeping my interest on the site though...until I found this thread however!!    It's all the same thing...someone is is having trouble with their tank and it's always a typical newbie error...same old sale old. ON top of that, there's rarely anything new. Sometimes I want to say something, sometimes I decide that there are tones of others on this site who can just as easily answer because I have better things to do.  I have decades of experience keeping fish and I've kept a lot of species.  I think my contributions are usually useful, but again, there's hardly anything going on that keeps my interest and I stopped logging in.

If the site is being used like used Ottawa and kijiji, then it's no wonder I'm bored!  I like the idea of making the classifieds a member only area and not limiting non-members in the discussion boards. I saw in the previous post that there was the idea thrown out that entitled non-members classified ads if they are regular contributors to the site...except in the classifieds.  I think that would be acceptable but hard to monitor. 

Perhaps introduce some kind of fun learning system where paid members can work towards achieving experience status within the club...kind of like the AHAP and BAP.  As an idea, we could have games and/or tests that people can take if they want to participate.  In order to achieve certain expertise...for lack of a better word..., a number of points has to be achieved in that category.  Once the points has been reached, that person will be awarded with a certificate and a prize at a meeting for their accomplishment as a "skillful OVAS cichlid keeper" (for example) and get a new little icon in the star line on the web page.  If someone achieves this certificate in all categories, then we can make up a very special name for that accomplishment, give a certificate, maybe a bigger prize and make a big deal about it at the meeting.  This is just a raw idea because something like this would sure keep me interested in being a member, not to mention promote fish related learning!