Discussions vr. Classifieds

[dan2x38]

Fishnut some food for thought there for sure. Some other sites utilize the star line alot. They use it not just for experience but also for help given, volunteer services, etc. Might be away to encourage some folks to get involved. After all if it's on the web you can hide behind your keyboard... 

[kennyman]

How much was the door fee at the Calfo event for non members again? I believe that event was an attempt to put on an advertised public presentation sponsored by OVAS and Ottawa Inverts. non members were charged admission. Too bad it did not do better at the door. We could have started an annual thing on that scale.

I greatly enjoyed that event and still think fondly of it every time I pick up the Signed copy of "Reef Invertebrates" I purchased that day. Certainly not the kind of event that can be run without a much wider audience than the base membership. That was advertised From Toronto to Montreal If I remember correctly. There is a resource for ovas to harvest in the non member usage this new site created. I don't think trying to assimilate them with full members status will do it though and I'm not sure what exercising control over the classified posting is going to accomplish to that end either.

But I suppose I gave up the right to these discussions when I gave up paying to support the monthly meetings, auctions and other events I was no longer attending.

[dan2x38]

I think there were 15 or so reduced memberships bought - $15 because of the shortened season remaining. They were bought to enter the speaker meeting which was less than the door for non-members admittance. The sponsors did not pay for it ask how much they spent? Admission did not come close to covering it. Those members that purchased to enter the event hardly any renewed except for the regulars.

So an annual event for that type of speaker is not possible without the funds. There were funds available b/c the treasury had accumulated over some time. As an idea if certain speakers are wanted maybe those wanting them could make suggestions how to raise funds for them to come here. Head up a fund raiser find more sponsors. Get current sponsors to pay more for them to be brought in. It is dollars and cents.

[markw]

Fishnut... If I didn't know any better I'd swear I wrote that post! I couldn't say it better. I'm bored with the site. I go on because I feel some sort of obligation(not sure why) and see the same old questions. I know I'm an old school that believes thats why books were written, and too often people just jump to their computer...punch in a question and then hit reload over and over again waiting for someone to solve their mistakes they could have probably prevented with a little knowledge. I agree, make people pay to use the classified. If you can't afford the $20.00 then I'm sorry, but why should us as members subsidize another mini-ottawa fish ebay?
Lets consider a site where members can share real hobby issues, successes, failures and topics they will learn from. It doesn't have to be an experts only site, but lets try and get away from the repetition and nonsense and make it a place members will want to visit.

[Adam]

I'll go out and say it but the classifieds are what make this website so popular.  Without them, many could just as easily go to a much larger forum for a wider reader base and faster responses.  Some might want the established members to stay and post about the club and their aquariums from time to time...maybe that is what the website was meant for.  But, if you restrict the classifieds to members only, I predict that the club will take a heavy hit on traffic to the site, new members and new sponsors.  There are sponsors here because there are people buying and selling items and companies will catch their eye.  If the site was about members of the club only, I can't imagine too many sponsors staying for the next fiscal year.  

I'd also like to know how many people in this discussion have had someone come and buy an item from them with 0 posts, or have bought an item from a non-member or someone whose only objective is to use the site for its classifieds?  When I look at the classifieds and see all the users logged into that forum at the top, I always see many members using it.  It's wildly popular and people will go elsewhere and the club will lose interest if it is restricted.

These are my opinions and observations.  No offence meant to anyone.

[markw]

Another option that is worth exploring is limiting posting in the classified to members only, but anyone can buy from it. That way the interest they have is not diminished however, it either encourages people to join or find another place to sell. If you aren't a member you can still access the section, pm the seller and buy as before.

[Laura]

... too often people just jump to their computer...punch in a question and then hit reload over and over again waiting for someone to solve their mistakes they could have probably prevented with a little knowledge.

I agree markw - repeating the same info over and over again gets tiresome fast - esp when a simple google search will answer the question.  I admit that it makes me a bit crazy.  I believe though that we need a happy medium otherwise we could end up too strict.

Perhaps as someone mentioned earlier, some stickies of FAQ topics that we can refer people to would be helpful - My suggestions would be:

cycling (I know we have an article on cycling, but everyone has a different fave, so maybe a few links)
appropriate size tanks for goldies (KKelly - I volunteer you!!)
Stocking suggestions for 5 and 10 gallon tanks
euthanasia
[/list]

I agree, make people pay to use the classified. If you can't afford the $20.00 then I'm sorry, but why should us as members subsidize another mini-ottawa fish ebay?

As Groupie02 noted, it's the sponsors that pay for the site - not the funding raised from the membership.  As such, the more traffic the site gets, the better it can be for the sponsors (and us members - they give us discounts!!)

I'm not sure why we're talking about restricting non-members - I don't see any benefit by restricting them and non-ovas members are great contributers to the site.  

Check out the 'Members' list at the top and sort by the different groupings - you'll see that some of the active, helpful people are not card carrying ovas members - restricting them will IMO diminish the site.  With respect, this issue comes up periodically and I must admit that I really don't get it. Remember, the website is not the club, although obviously connected, they are separate entities.  

[beowulf]

Groupie02 correct me if I am wrong but can scripts not be used with this website software? If so wouldn't limiting a non-member to 5 posts/week by using simple script IF statement - If member Then post Else Posts => 5 IF NOT Post.. or am I over simplifying?

So if I understand you, you want to limit the amount of posts a person that is not a member can post on the site to 5 a week?  The whole site?  This from the guy who I remember clearly complained that the site/club had to many clicks and you did not feel welcomed when you first joined.  Posts like this make you sound like the elitists you complained about back then.

[charlie]

How much was the door fee at the Calfo event for non members again? I believe that event was an attempt to put on an advertised public presentation sponsored by OVAS and Ottawa Inverts. non members were charged admission. Too bad it did not do better at the door. We could have started an annual thing on that scale.

I greatly enjoyed that event and still think fondly of it every time I pick up the Signed copy of "Reef Invertebrates" I purchased that day. Certainly not the kind of event that can be run without a much wider audience than the base membership. That was advertised From Toronto to Montreal If I remember correctly. There is a resource for ovas to harvest in the non member usage this new site created. I don't think trying to assimilate them with full members status will do it though and I'm not sure what exercising control over the classified posting is going to accomplish to that end either.

But I suppose I gave up the right to these discussions when I gave up paying to support the monthly meetings, auctions and other events I was no longer attending.

Kenny , i`ll attempt to answer some of your questions,

How much was the door fee at the Calfo event for non members again

I don`t remember the exact amount, but i do remember it was cheaper to buy a family membership @ the discounted price of 20 .00 than pay the admission for 2, so that leads me to think it was 15.00 for the 2 days  What a deal/steal, as a result we had numerous sign ups for membership , some 40+( i can pull the exact #`s if required, but don`t think it matters much)if the club had a returning renewal of that membership the following year of 5 of those people it was a lot.

I believe that event was an attempt to put on an advertised public presentation sponsored by OVAS and Ottawa Inverts.

That is not quite correct, the Calfo presentation was put on by OVAS & sponsored Marinescape, Ottawa Inverts, Rays & Aqua Valley.
Here is some more food for discussion, the theory that as the web site grow in numbers  so will the paid membership  as a spin off, does not hold true in OVAS real life, the club had more paid members when the web site #s were lower the last 2 yrs.If my info is incorrect, one of the execs. involved can correct me.

P.S i don`t know if it is relevent, but those 40 +people that bought a membership most of them were forum trolls here for a long time & some still are, there was one gentleman that came alone after reading about Calfo presentation, came joined attended meetings & still does , he is one of the maybe 5 that renewed, as mentioned somewhere in this thread , the largest money put out for a speaker was for the Marine aspect of the hobby, njow tell me this freshwater club is not trying.

[dan2x38]

When I suggest restrictions it is ONLY in the classifieds. It is the abuser we want to curb not the positive people. Maybe a moderator/s for just the classifieds. Lock people out for so many days for abuse. Create a set of guidelines to be used by the mod or mods so they do not go off on their own. This way no one is offend except the abuser. isn't that what we want to accomplish?

Either way I think correct of I am wrong everyone agrees the classifieds is mess with for lack of a better term spamers.

[dan2x38]

So if I understand you, you want to limit the amount of posts a person that is not a member can post on the site to 5 a week?  The whole site?  This from the guy who I remember clearly complained that the site/club had to many clicks and you did not feel welcomed when you first joined.  Posts like this make you sound like the elitists you complained about back then.

The CLASSIFIEDS hence the thread. Come on don't - this is about the club not me or not you! I am bigger than that.

PS- I am part of no clik never have been never will be my membership is for the club. I am my own man and follow no one or toe the line to no one... period.

[Hookup]

Hum..... sigh..... grumble.....   Does anyone think that the classified "spamming" will work itself out in time?  I.e. the current so-called spammers sell their stuff and move on never to be heard of again?  Is it possible that this is just a bump in the road and maybe the best thing to do is wait it out some more?

I tend to agree with Dan's overall point.  The past 2 months have been mostly about the classifieds... however, I do read most of them, well at least their titles, as I am always on the lookout for a good-deal...  Maybe in a month or so this will have faded into the background???  Anyone agree? or disagree?

[charlie]

I`ll share a experience i had @ Big Al`s East on Sunday ( this was not the first time it happened), i was introduced to a guy  by one of the staff there, the intro went like this, meet Charlie he is one of the guys from the local club in Ottawa he can help you with info about the club, so Charlie as a proud OVAS member proceeded to market OVAS , this is one of the comments i got in reply " oh is that the web site where you get stuff cheap" man did that make me feel proud to hear that  needless to say it took me 1/2 an hour to try & explain that is not so.
I`m now very reluctant to say anything in the future about OVAS to anyone i don`t know . what do you guys think of that image?

[dan2x38]

There is the Hipo in the living room. You can walk around it, dust around it, dress it up but it is still there. That is why I started the topic to talk about the issue and it is... The issue is not about who pays what it is who abuses what. Pretending it is not there will not make it go away. Ignoring it will not make it go away. Once they sell their crap opps I mean stuff they will sell more for $2, $5 or $9.97 like Wal-Mart. Doing something about it is what is required. Like I said maybe it is not my ideas but there needs to be one it is hurting our club. How many ways can it be said?

[fischkopp]

what do you guys think of that image?

I hope that we find ways to change this image as a result of this discussion.

[Hookup]

I`ll share a experience i had @ Big Al`s East on Sunday ( this was not the first time it happened), i was introduced to a guy  by one of the staff there, the intro went like this, meet Charlie he is one of the guys from the local club in Ottawa he can help you with info about the club, so Charlie as a proud OVAS member proceeded to market OVAS , this is one of the comments i got in reply " oh is that the web site where you get stuff cheap" man did that make me feel proud to hear that  needless to say it took me 1/2 an hour to try & explain that is not so.
I`m now very reluctant to say anything in the future about OVAS to anyone i don`t know . what do you guys think of that image?

Charlie,
  I'm not the least bit suprised.  83% traffic is classifieds!  I'll ask everyone, what organized effort has been managed or maintained on this site to increase knowledge and discussion to a level that can compete with the classifieds?  We do have an organized photo contest and a set of organized forums, some broadcast discussion/advertising about upcoming ovas events.  There are no published articles, no topic of the week, no tank of the month, no best-practice threads, no FAQ's, no product reviews, monthly news letters, etc, etc, etc... the Discussions are left to manage themselves, other than moderating.  What is expected as a result?

  Lash out and correct me harshly if I am wrong... I might be wrong.. no; I want to be wrong...  maybe there has been or still is a focused managed effort to promote the "discussion" side of this web-service.  But given that classifieds let an average "joe" make money for free (same as usedottawa and kijiji) without reasons and structure the discussions will have a hard time competing for the same amount of air-space.

[charlie]

Charlie,
  I'm not the least bit suprised.  83% traffic is classifieds!  I'll ask everyone, what organized effort has been managed or maintained on this site to increase knowledge and discussion to a level that can compete with the classifieds?  We do have an organized photo contest and a set of organized forums, some broadcast discussion/advertising about upcoming ovas events.  There are no published articles, no topic of the week, no tank of the month, no best-practice threads, no FAQ's, no product reviews, monthly news letters, etc, etc, etc... the Discussions are left to manage themselves, other than moderating.  What is expected as a result?

  Lash out and correct me harshly if I am wrong... I might be wrong.. no; I want to be wrong...  maybe there has been or still is a focused managed effort to promote the "discussion" side of this web-service.  But given that classifieds let an average "joe" make money for free (same as usedottawa and kijiji) without reasons and structure the discussions will have a hard time competing for the same amount of air-space.

Hookup, first off, i will not lash out, all my input in this thread are hard facts  , perhaps some of it might be a bit inaccurate  .
Now you have made some very valid points, but let me ask you this,the club is run by volunteers normally about 12 i think, @ present about 9, the web publication of the club is managed by the webmaster ( one of the volunteer) & like everyone else on this site have personal life responsibilities, do you think this group of volunteers can combine the already time consuming club activities, personal life obligations & still find the time to organise the site too?
I think the site is structured for the people that visit it can take the lead & get involved, i can tell you that a few short years ago this site was a buzz of activity & the classifieds was not the dominant forum & that was with probably 40% less users, what is the cause of the decline ? i don`t have the answers, but i have a few of my personal suspicions & one of them is the promotion that this site is a separate entity of the club, in my personal opinion it detracts from the purpose of the club, there are some more that i do not wish to share in a open forum  , as it might just make this constructive discussion a mud slinging contest 
Lastly most would tell you typing is not a enjoyable  asset of mine but feel free to chat one on one , you have some very good points. sorry if i did not directly answered all your questions.

[Hookup]

I guess I'm just a bit frustrated, as we all are.   Whatever the direction the club takes with this site, I'll still be here to participate as best as I can.  I keep reading that people want to remove things, and limit this or ban that.  I agree we could improve things, but jumping to conclusions without determining what it is we want can be a slippery slope.   I know we are not a huge group, and time and resources are limited, so any change will take time.

By all means, do not think that I am saying you the executive, or ovas members have not done enough, or caused this problem...  I do not believe that to be the case.  Im not even a huge classified ad supporter or user so I'm not fighting to keep the classified ads alive at all. 

I am suggesting that to create a positive image for the web-site, which is owned and managed, and maintained by the club, we the club members need to do positive things.

How about at an upcoming meeting we take 30min or so to discuss, as an open group, ideas on how to increase the "discussion" quality and quantity of the site?  Some people have shared some ideas already in this thread, so if we could select one or two simpler ideas maybe we can find a way to get it in motion?  Maybe that means creating a second-tier of the executive?

In re-reading my last post, I think I did lash-out hard.  I wasn't trying to point-fingers or offend anyone, but I still stand behind what I said.  I stand behind it enough to be part of the solution as well.

[beowulf]

The CLASSIFIEDS hence the thread. Come on don't - this is about the club not me or not you! I am bigger than that.

PS- I am part of no clik never have been never will be my membership is for the club. I am my own man and follow no one or toe the line to no one... period.

Your thread clearly states dicussion v classifieds and you post does not mention limiting to the classifieds and actually reads like you want to limit for the whole site.  For the classifieds it might not be the end of the world and the idea of maybe limiting none members to the ability to create 5 threads might be a good idea.  This way they can still post all the want in other peoples threads asking questions etc if they want to buy something but without abusing the CF and trying to sell a ton of stuff in a ton of threads.  I would certainly be against limiting posts on the site as a whole.  I found your post unclear and that is why I had "?" asking.

I never said you are in a click, but I remember clearly you complained back in the day that the club did have them and you felt you were not welcomed and I was worried that this would really create clicks etc.

EDIT: just thought of something, if the none-members are limited to only 5 posts per month in the classifieds, this would limit their ability also to create threads when looking for items....which limits the members ability to sell things they might not want anymore but for what ever reason, do not post themselves as being for sale.....just another thought.

[charlie]

I guess I'm just a bit frustrated, as we all are.   Whatever the direction the club takes with this site, I'll still be here to participate as best as I can.  I keep reading that people want to remove things, and limit this or ban that.  I agree we could improve things, but jumping to conclusions without determining what it is we want can be a slippery slope.   I know we are not a huge group, and time and resources are limited, so any change will take time.

By all means, do not think that I am saying you the executive, or ovas members have not done enough, or caused this problem...  I do not believe that to be the case.  Im not even a huge classified ad supporter or user so I'm not fighting to keep the classified ads alive at all. 

I am suggesting that to create a positive image for the web-site, which is owned and managed, and maintained by the club, we the club members need to do positive things.

How about at an upcoming meeting we take 30min or so to discuss, as an open group, ideas on how to increase the "discussion" quality and quantity of the site?  Some people have shared some ideas already in this thread, so if we could select one or two simpler ideas maybe we can find a way to get it in motion?  Maybe that means creating a second-tier of the executive?

In re-reading my last post, I think I did lash-out hard.  I wasn't trying to point-fingers or offend anyone, but I still stand behind what I said.  I stand behind it enough to be part of the solution as well.

Great idea, Feb. will lend itself to that, now for the exec to decide?