Spring run-off double dosing

[dan2x38]

Guess this could go in each forum?

It is spring and every spring with the run off there are contaminates in our water. The City adjusts amounts of Chloramine but there are still issues always. Each year there are the horror stories of tank crashes and fish deaths. I treat with double doses of Prime in my fish room. In display tanks in the living room I use ChlorAM-X and double dose that to. I have not had a spring run-off death yet. Once the melt down is done I return to regular water treatment. Something to think about it is that time of year.

[KLKelly]

I'm waiting for the tank dieoff threads to start.  Its the only time I'm thankful I have the well water I do.  Its good to point out the dechlorinators you use.  I couldn't imagine double dosing the slimey cheaper ones.

[motoro]

On the subject of Spring run-offs and tank die offs, does anybody know if having a UV light helps in this regards?

I always double dose Prime at this time of year, but still have some fish who won't eat for a couple of days following a water-change.  I am not sure what type of contaminants get through the city's sterilization system, but we all know something does.  I was just wondering if a UV light would be beneficial.

[dan2x38]

UV Sterilizers kill pathogens in the water like Coliform bacteria and E. Coli. Not sure about raw sewage. Raw sewage can get into the system through broken pipes or flooding. Water fills areas with sewage then can over flow spilling into the water ways. They do no good against spikes in heavy metels, pesticides, chloramine spikes... When there are detected incidents with the water more chloramine is added to counter this. In theory if you are low dosing or dosing just for the replaced water increased contaminates and/or chloramine are not treated. Plus inferior products do not deal with heavy metals, detox NH3 or deal properly with chloramine.

Here are some City links regarding our water:

City water site - http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/water/index_en.html
last years report - http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/water/wq/city_wells/wq_reports/2008_annual/britannia_en.pdf

There are other independent reports some show scary results... does the City tell us everything? 

[Fishnut]

What are some of the slimy cheaper brands KLKelly?  I know there are many people out there who LOVE prime, but when I tried it, I lost fish.  I used to use the Tetra brand, then I switched to Aqua Plus about 10 years ago simply because it was readily available.  I find it really easy to measure and I've never had a problem with it. 

The instructions on the bottle say to use 1 cap full for every 5 gallons when chloramine is in the water.  I use 1 cap full for every bucket (roughly 2 gallons) and I have never lost fish.  In my pond, I use the Laguna brand.  It's the same as Aqua Plus but more concentrated for pond use.  I also double dose that.

Although Prime is concentrated more than any other brand out there, my brands of choice do the same thing.

[dan2x38]

Many of the other (not Prime) use slime coat stuff. I would not want to swim in slime coating. Water is 800% more dense than air. Our fish need to absorb O2 from that density through their gills. If they are coated or cover with slime coating stuff it obstructs that.

I have never heard of anyone every losing fish with Prime? Sure there was not another cause? Also other brands cost way more. Aqua-Plus is 5 mils (capfull)/5 gallons. Prime is 1 mil/10 gallons or 1 capfull (5 mils)/50 gallons. You can safely use it at 5 x dosage. It also removes heavy metals and detoxes nitrogen compounds in the water besides breaking down chloramine. It promotes the growth of the slime coat on the fish it does not add Aloe-Vera or other stuff that can build-up on a fish's gills hampering their breathing or damaging their kidneys.

No one could ever sell me on another product. I use Chloram-X on my display tanks. It is made with the same active ingredients just in a dry form. Prime I use on my smaller tanks it is easier to measure.

[Fishnut]

Nope, there was nothing else wrong and no difference other than the different water conditioner.

As I said, I've been using Aqua Plus and before that, the tetra brand.  I have never lost fish due to unknown reasons...and I'm talking 20+ years of successful fish keeping and breeding.  The fish live long, healthy lives too.  If fish die it would be because they're either old, really sick or I've been lazy.  I've used Tetra and Aqua Plus for everything other than the large South American Cichlids and African Cichlids.  No issues.  You have your preference, I have mine.  If it works for you, fantastic but mine has been working for a decade. 

Since I lost fish when I tried Prime, I would have to get some highly convincing evidence that Aqua Plus is the worst thing I could use for my fish.  I'll look into that slime coating thing because I haven't heard of it before...then again, I'm not exactly up on my fish info reading.  Are you sure it's not just a marketing comment to scare people away from buying the competition? 

There are some newbies out there who might read that post and get scared off something perfectly good.  IMO, it's simply a preference.  There are many ways to do things in this hobby, so I always feel that if it's working for someone, then stick with it.

[Fishnut]

I hope this isn't thread jacking, but since we're on the subject of different water conditioners, here's some information I found:

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm

There were some chemical terms I wanted to look up in that article so here's what I found:

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/compounds/faq/thiosulfate.shtml
http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Sodium_Formaldehyde_Bisulfite-9924990

There is some interesting information in the following website:

http://theaquariumwiki.com/Water_conditioners

Unfortunately, I can't find any info on the "Pure Herbal Extracts" in Aqua Plus...and the research time block to satisfy my curiosity is over Back to work I go.

[Bees]

Good research Fishnut, very informative.  Dan is also right on the money when he talks about chloramine the city is adding to the water.  Judging by the amount of threads recently regarding fish die-offs with associated ammonia spikes, it is very possible a water conditioner was used which only dealt with the chlorine and left the ammonia behind.

I can see how doing a small water change would not introduce more ammonia than could be processed biologically but when 50% and greater changes are made it may be overwhelming. 

I'll talk to some of the environmental scientists at my work and get more info about the city's water on monday.

This is probably a good thread to be stickied once the info is all in.

[Adam]

There are other independent reports some show scary results... does the City tell us everything? 

Yes they do.  I used to be involved with those results.
It's highly illegal to publish incorrect data.

[KLKelly]

I was thinking like Stresscoat.  Anything with aloe for example.  I'm glad it works for you.  Dechlorinating/dechloraminating is whats important not replacing slime coat which a fish does fine on its own and doesn't have to breath it.   How safe is it to double and triple dose your conditioner.

I'm on a well where ammonia varies from .50 to 1.0 and a ph of 8.3.  Prime just makes me feel safer with detoxing some ammonia.  I am confident in my ability to double dose.  I do 50% plus water changes due to goldfish being high bioload.

Amquel I wouldn't double dose but it detoxes twice the ammonia that Prime does but it can drop ph if your kh is low.  It is more expensive than Prime though since its 1tsp/10 gallons 54 gallons would be five teaspoons vs one capful of Prime.

Edit. I'll make sure next time to just say I like Prime and why I like it.  Not knock any conditioners.

[KLKelly]

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/conditioners.shtml

[dan2x38]

Add a little of Aloe-Vera or other botanical/herb extract to water and feel it on your skin it is slimy/slippery. This what the fish breath... it coats their gill tissues hence hampering O2 absorption.... I read several articles on this a couple years back but can't find my bookmark... Picture this - it would like me coating the inside of my nose with mineral oil then trying to breath through my nose.

I mentioned that water is 800 times more dense than air but they still breath oxygen from it. More crap we dump in the water the harder they have work to breath it. Not trying to insult anyone just pointing out a few important considerations when choosing to treat your water.

Every year this topic arises and every year there are disasters. My intent here is for folks to be aware there yellow flags to watch for this time of year. For fish sakes be prepared it happens. I am already double dosing with prime for the entire volume of my tank. If I am doing a 25% water change on a 75 gallon tank I am dosing for 150 gallons which is 15 mils.

We wrote a letter to SeaChem the manufacture of Prime. They replied explaining what happens to Prime after it is added to the water. I forget but search the thread it is in here - the reply that is. Any ways there is no build-up and it dissipates from the water.

[KLKelly]

Someone posted this on GAB when I asked if Seachem Stability would help detox ammonia:

http://www.seachem.com/Library/SeaGrams/Ammonia_Management.pdf

[dan2x38]

Someone posted this on GAB when I asked if Seachem Stability would help detox ammonia:

http://www.seachem.com/Library/SeaGrams/Ammonia_Management.pdf

Thanks very interesting reading.... saved this one.

[KLKelly]

I thought it was a good one too.  I'm so sick of ammonia 

[Fishnut]

Wow...we should get seachem as a sponsor considering how many plugs and glowing product reviews it gets on this site! 

If you read the info I found, you will see that 2 websites mention that Aloe in water conditioners seems to be one of those non-scientifically-confirmed debates in the aquarium trade.  There have been no official studies done on it.  It's all speculation.  You'll also see that there are some water conditioners that use aloe and some that don't.

I'll have a read of the info on Seachem, but often these "reports" (IMO) are skewed to put the company in the best possible light and to make the competition sound as ineffective as possible, by comparison, without actually saying it.  I try not to take these "reports" and the information they give as completely true.  They aren't independantly conducted studies...they're Seachem conducted studies.  How neutral can anyone expect that study to be?  Besides, wouldn't it be too easy for other companies to replicate something similar if these publicly available reports told us exactly how their product works?

Yes, it's a good idea to warn people that the city's water changes at this time of year...especially...but it's also wise to stay neutral as far as what products people use. When I say these products have been working well for me for 20+ years, that's all I want to pass on...not go into the wonders of the product I choose.  I don't care what products people use if it's working for them.  I just want to share my EXPERIENCE.

[dan2x38]

Trying to stay on topic but it is not a study by SeaChem it is a FAQ sheet about ammonia posted by KLKelly. Research today is amazing leaps and bounds ahead of years ago. Pointing out water issues this time of year that is the purpose of my thread! Also the fact that what has worked for me is a product that enables double dosing to compenstate for spikes in the water system is important to my purpose of the thread - "Double Dosing".

[KLKelly]

I think this being an aquatic community with a wide array of experiences its going to be rare that everyone would agree on any one thing.

[tetroid]

Thanks for the reminder - I forgot all about the spring run-off (apart from what's trickling into my basement, of course). I did a 50% water change last night and dosed the standard amount of Prime. No problems, fortunately. My three farlowellas would have let me know.