Carbon deficiency pictures

[jart]

I was talking to Charlie online a few days ago (ECAS plant chat) and I mentioned I would post some pics of my Hygros.

I am slowly increasing my CO2; although, I can't even come close to counting the bubble rate at present. CO2 comes on at 2 pm (pH 6.9), off at midnight (pH 5.9). Drop checker solution at pH 5.9 will turn same color as reference solution.

Photoperiod: 6 hours
4 x 55watt AH Supply over 72 gallon 4 foot tank
Critters: cherry barbs, molly, platy, betta, checker barb, oto cat, bristle nose plecos, nerite snail, brilliant rasbora, pristella tetras.

Substrate: Layer of Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil over Flourite
Ferts: EI
Plants doing very well: E. tenellus, Anubias barteri var barteri, Anubias congensis, Eriocaulon setaceum, L. repens, Cabomba caroliniana, Crinum calamistratum, B. caroliniana and monnieri, C. lyrata

Plants doing poorly: R. rotundifolia, H. polysperma, H. salicifolia, and two new Hygro species that I haven't been able to definitively ID.

This is a Hygro I bought recently as "cherry leaf" hygrophila. Two days ago I picked off all affected leaves. The leaves in the picture were visibly fine at that time. Now they are riddled with holes. Lower leaves do not appear to be affected.


H. polysperma. Again, these leaves were fine just two days ago.

I can't get a decent shot of the salicifolia... the main defect is pinholes in some, but not all, of the leaves. Several of the leaves are stunted and curled... quite often the leaves are constricted about half way along their length.

Tom Barr seems to think the photos are consistent with deficient carbon. I thought that quite odd at first, yet I now am quite convinced that he is right. Since I thought it was an odd symptom of a carbon deficiency, I thought I would share the pics. I should have the answer soon... hopefully. This is getting tiring, not being able to grow relatively easy plants with 3 wpg.

I am absolutely convinced this is not a nutrient deficiency (other than carbon).

Most if not all the other plants are pearling like crazy, including the Anubias. yet at times, the Hygros will pearl heavily as well. Strange.

It seems odd that the craters in the leaves appear so fast. It is almost like something is eating them. Yet, that still doesn't explain the pinholes and misshapen leaves on the salicifolia. Also, I would expect a fish to eat the outside edges of a leaf first. Correct me if I am wrong.

The E. tenellus also had defects in its leaves... that seems to have resolved (I have cranked up the cO2 over the past few weeks).

We'll see what happens with increased CO2. No point in rushing things and killing critters though.

Any thoughts or questions, fire away.
   

[fischkopp]

Mmh, that is interesting. First of all, I am not the one to question Mr. Plant God, but CO2 deficiencies are the thing thing would would address. Of course, cranking the CO2 never hurts (the plants) as long as we provide all other nutrients in sufficient amount as well.

Two things caught my eye: your photo period is quite short with only 6 hours, unless I missed some new research I believe the plants do require at least 8 hours for optimal growth, in praxis 8-12 hours are common. Second, it is quite common for plants to go though an adjustment period when introduced to a new tank, moving plants from the fishstore to the high tech tank at home is quite an extreme, and most of the time you will have to wait a week or two to see how it turn out in the new environment. Old leaves are usually dropped because they can not deal with the new conditions. I would guess that is the reason why you see holes.

Just my thoughts ...

[charlie]

I`,ll be anxiously awaiting your findings, like fischkopp, i think your photoperiod is on the short side,but i don`t know if it`s the cause ,the initial thought was "K" potassium but given the dosing re EI , i highly doubt it.
They are some pointers that seem to throw some reasoning off, one of them been the other plants seem to be photosynthesizing well & growing well, one would think if the carbon is on the low side you would see some BBA?, are those barbs( Cherry & Checkered)likely to snack at the salad bar?, Tom Barr`s advice is worth it`s weight in gold  ,

[jart]

Thanks for the input; I appreciate it. I would agree that my photoperiod is quite short. I reduced it some time ago in response to an outbreak of diatoms, along with the holes in the leaves. I figured the last thing I needed at that time was more light. Even now, I am hesitant to increase it... if what I have is indeed a carbon deficiency, more light is only going to increase the plants' demand for carbon. Maybe I should extend the photoperiod and stagger the lights. Any thoughts on that?

I agree with you that there is often an acclimatization period after new plants are brought home. Most often I thought that this was simply the plant adjusting from emersed to submersed growth. A few months ago I picked up some Hygro corymbosa ''Compact''... for the first week or two it struggled miserably; then it transformed into a beautiful foreground plant. About a month ago it succumbed to multiple holes in its leaves.

I certainly can appreciate that not all plants can uptake carbon at the same rate... but I sure didn't expect weeds like hygros to be slower than others...

I haven't witnessed the barbs checking out the salad bar as of yet.

Edit: To fischkopp... the H. poly has been in the tank for a few months. Thanks to both of you for your thoughts.

[fischkopp]

You can try to up the potassium a bit (K2SO4) and see if it improves thing, although I have never seen holes that big being caused by a lack of K. Anyway, adding more K doesnt hurt anybody.

Did you keep an eye on your BN pleco? They do have the tendency to snack on juicy leaf tissue. While this may explain the holes, it doesnt help to understand why it is growing slowly ... try upping the CO2 for a few weeks as per guru suggestion and keep us posted. Wouldn't be fun if everything grows well right away

[bergenm]

I am no plant expert but my guess would be your plecos. I have a small pleco that leaves most plants alone but there are a few types of plants that he will spend all night happily boring holes through (mostly broad leaf swords)... The pattern he makes is similar to the ones in your pictures.

[dan2x38]

Can't wait to see how this one plays out. I am leaning towards a K deficiency but I would not never doubt T. Barr. I also lean towards a fish chowing down at night like a pleco. Plecos require vegetable matter maybe they are sneaking their share when your back is turned?

[jart]

Thanks for the replies.
I think often we see plant deficiency pictures of K, N, P, traces etc, but very few for carbon. If plants are >50% carbon, shouldn't it be more common?

I'll post exactly what I am dosing, three times weekly, for the record. Feel free to comment. It is a 72 gallon tank.

KNO3 3/4; 3/4; 3/4
K2HPO4 1/4; 1/4; 1/4 (recently increased from 3/16 after discussion with Charlie)

(so as you can see, a fair amount of K)

Trace mix 20 mL; 20mL; 20 mL
CaCl2 1 tsp on WC day
MgSO4 3/4 tsp on WC day (water in Halifax is fairly soft)

As of this evening I have pushed my pH down to 5.8... pearling is quite intense.

I have no plans at the moment at increasing my light intensity (which I could easily do by lowering the lights which are suspended over the tank)... I think you would all agree with this plan. I did however, increase my photoperiod to 7 hours. Next week I will increase it to eight, unless someone suggests otherwise.

I was busy after work today; I will buy some algae wafers tomorrow to toss in at night. The BNPs don't seem to be making a big fuss about the zucchini.
I think it is very prudent to consider that a fish could be contributing... hygro leaves just seem a little flimsy for them to get a great hold on... I could much easier see them doing this with a sword plant.

And I agree that extra K would likely not be detrimental. I would prefer to try the increased CO2 for now... if I increase both, perhaps we'll never know what the deficit was.

[dan2x38]

Yeah if increasing CO2 I'd wait to see what happens. To many changes no way to know what worked or didn't. Can always add more K later if issue isn't resolved.

[charlie]

jart, does this look familiar?
http://www.barrreport.com/general-plant-topics/5531-hole-new-leafs.html

[jart]

Thanks. Great link.
I am thinking of subscribing to the Barr report. Do you?
I have those exact holes in my Anubias, although to a lesser extent. The tenellus leaves are very similar to what mine were like (mine weren't quite as bad).

This is being recognized more and more as a carbon issue on several forums, yet most collections of photographs displaying deficiencies list everything except carbon.

At present, the new growth of the hygros appears to be coming in normally. Although, I think I need to back off on the CO2 though. MY ABNPs were a bit lethargic last evening, so much that I could put my hand in and almost scoop one of them up.

Thanks everyone for all the help thus far; great forum.

[charlie]

Thanks. Great link.
I am thinking of subscribing to the Barr report. Do you?
I have those exact holes in my Anubias, although to a lesser extent. The tenellus leaves are very similar to what mine were like (mine weren't quite as bad).

This is being recognized more and more as a carbon issue on several forums, yet most collections of photographs displaying deficiencies list everything except carbon.

At present, the new growth of the hygros appears to be coming in normally. Although, I think I need to back off on the CO2 though. MY ABNPs were a bit lethargic last evening, so much that I could put my hand in and almost scoop one of them up.

Thanks everyone for all the help thus far; great forum.

Yes i do, i find it to be one of the better forums, his research , testing rather than subscribing to myths , is worth the subscription.
Yep it is time to back up on the co2 , if the ABNP`s are so sleepy

[fischkopp]

... Although, I think I need to back off on the CO2 though. MY ABNPs were a bit lethargic last evening, so much that I could put my hand in and almost scoop one of them up ...

That - once more - sound like the good old "chinese drop checker" method ...

Yeap, back it off a bit ...

[jart]

After two weeks of what would appear to be optimal CO2, the deformed leaves are still appearing on the Hygros. The craters as well... although, presumably they could be due to a fish. The Hygros continue to pearl for about 4 hours a day.

I am rather fed up with this at this point and think the only reasonable thing to do is to just give up on keeping Hygros for now and stick with plants that are doing well.

I am a bit puzzled by this leaf that started to grow on my Anubias (I think it is barteri var barteri). It appears to be quite pale and it's edges are curled. If this indeed a result of carbon deficiency, I'm not sure where I could go from here.

KNO3 3/4 tsp 3times/ week
KHPO4 1/4 tsp 3times/ week
Traces 20 mL 3 times/ week
CaCl2 1 tsp after WC
MgSO4 3/4 tsp after WC