Fertilizing?

[Steve_2]

Hello,

I just started with plants a few months ago. I have kept everything very simple and low-tech. Just under 2 WPG oh light, sand substrate. Everything grew very well for the first 4 months or so. Now I have a problem with blue/green algae and my plants aren't growing as fast as they use to. Before I had to trim the plants every week or two, now it's every 4-6 weeks. Could it be because there is a lot of blue/green algae growing on the leaves? Other than cleaning the plants, what could I do? Would fertilizing help? If so, what's the best product available on the market?

Thanks!

Steve

[fischkopp]

Bluegreen algae can appear in a low flow and/or low nitrate environment. This could have happened in you tank: the nice growth of plants depletes the existing nitrate (growth slows down), at the same time the vegetation will create dead spots for water circulation. Any algae growing on leafs is bad because it blocks the light and growth slow down further. Before you do anything for your plants you will have to make sure the BG algae is gone; once it is in the tank it won't go away own its own (in most cases). Try a blackout first. After the algae is gone you can try adding small amounts of nitrates with every water change and observe how the plants are doing.

[zima]

To add to what fischkopp said, with which I completely agree, I noticed that you have sand for substrate. If it is simple pool filter sand (as opposed to flourite sand), then we have a problem. Sand is composed of very small pebbles which, once in water, do not allow for much gas exchange to occr. In other words, the roots of the plants use up all the available oxygen, but do not receive any more supplies because there is no gas exchange occuring. Once there is no "root aeration", roots will start to rot and evidently plant growth stalls. Hence the algae opportunist takes over and uses up any available nutrients that the plants are not using.

To make the longer story short - pool filter sand is the worst substrate for planted aquariums, in my experience.

[Steve_2]

Thanks for the advice guys. The sand is actually sand that I collected from a clean stream at my cottage. The grain size varies from I'd say a grain of salt to a grain of barley. The substrate is not overly deep, only about 1.5". I didn't go for a deep substrate as most of my plants barely produce any roots at all to begin with. One of my plants does produce fairly extensive and thick roots. I forget the name of it but it had long narrow leaves and I got it from you fischkopp. When I do uproot it(I often do this when I trim this plant as I discard of the roots and keep the young tops), the roots look nice and healthy. No swampy smell in my substrate. Anyway, I have tried to black out the tank. I only did it for two days. I covered the tank and all. Nothing changed. Wen I turned the lights back on, the b/g algae was still there.

I clean the b/g algae off the plants at every weekly water change. I do fairly big water changes since I am keeping discus in that tank. 75% weekly, sometimes twice a week. I know I do not have great water circulation as this is a tall tank and I am only using two emperor 400s as filtration.

[fischkopp]

That plant could be Hygrophila corymbosa augustifolia.

Make a longer blackout, at least 5 days. Your plants will handle it given that it is a low light tank.

Are you sure that stuff you have is BG algae? Is it slimy and does it smell?

[dan2x38]

I'd add some nitrate with the water changes too. You are doing big water changes so removing most nitrates. There is not enough for the plants so they are stunted. Then algae will take advantage of any available nutrients created by fish and fish food. BGA is also caused by excessive oraganics in those dead spots poor circulation. Over feeding or plant decay can cause this.

[Steve_2]

Yes it is hygrophilia corymbosa augustifollia. And yes, it is slimy, smells "swampy" and grows really fast! Okay, so I could try the 5 day black out. And...sorry for the dumb question, but how do I add nitrates to the water? Can I buy it?

I USED to over feed my tank back when I had angels in there. They ate so much so fast that I had to feed more so the discus and other fish could feed. I have recently removed the angels so I am feeding less. One thing that I think might be contributing to the DOW is all the wood in the tank. It does decay slowly and I find little bits of wood at the bottom from time to time. I would like to keep it as it buffers my water to a pH of 6.0. The discus don't seem to mind the large water changes even though the pH from the aged tap water is closer to neutral. Other than that, since I don't have a cover for my tank, water evaporates pretty fast. In between water changes, the water level drops a solid 2". So when I do a water change, I start my topping up the tank. I do that because with the hose I can create a current all around the plants and wood and it moves all the accumulated gunk to the front of the tank where I can siphon it out easily. Then I remove 75% of the water.

Okay, so after I sent my last message on this topic(before I read the two last replies by Dan and fischkopp), I decided to go to Big Al's and I bought some Flourish excel. I followed the instructions on the back and dosed my three tanks. Well, on the two tanks that didn't have any algae problems, not much has changed. BUT on the big tank with the B/G algae problem, something pretty amazing happened. First of all, 75% of the B/G algae disappeared over night. Second, the water in my tank now looks pinkish! And finally, my plants look significantly better. All the leaves were extended out.

Am I doing something right? Or is this just false hope?

[Steve_2]

And I forgot to ask...Can/should I use carbon in my filter to get rid of that pinkish hue in my tank? Is it safe to use carbon while dosing with excel? And finally...a little off topic, but I know some people who keep discus believe carbon is a bad thing for the discus. Is this true?

Thanks!!!

[zima]

I am not sure about the pinkish hue in the water, but I can attest to the wonders Excel does to algae problems when overdosing (2-3 times the does prescribed). It works great as a temporary solution, but you will ultimately have to find the root cause and fix it. Nitrates are the first thing to look at, like suggested by Dan and Robert. I also see no problem using Excel with activated carbon in the filter. I don't use the carbon at all unless I need to remove medication; but if you want to continue using it, make sure you change it every so often (2-3 weeks, I heard).

[dan2x38]

For sure be careful using carbon. It becomes saturated with impurities. Then it will start to leach them back into the water. To add nitrates you can pick-up some Seachem nitrogen (same thing) or even go to B & B Hydroponics and get dry (powder form) potassium nitrate. You might want to start researching EI Dosing method by Tom Barr. This link has a lot of excellent references: http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=35307.0

Like Fischkopp said if there is BGA in your tank it will keep growing. Finding the cause and a blackout: http://ovas.ca/index.php?page=6 is your best bet to get rid of it. Here is a reference for basic algae causes: http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm

[Steve_2]

Thanks for all the info guys! It's very much appreciated. 

[fischkopp]

Yes, it could be that Seachem Excel killed of some of the BG algae. It's known that algae as simple organism can't handle Excel. I have never seen that excel had any effect on BG algae in my tanks. Keep in mind that BG algae is not real algae but a nasty bacteria. A blackout wasn't successful for me either so I eventually went the chemical way and eradicated the BG algae with erythromycin - this should be the last resort though.

I have never seen any pinkish water in my tank, it would make me worry ... unless you are fighting with red algae (which isn't really red until its dying) instead of BG algae. Excel would be very effective against red algae. There is a kind of red algae that is made of very fine, brownish thread, slimy if you touch it, and a bit smelly too. Maybe that's what you have in your tank?

I don't see why you shouldn't use carbon, it will help to clear it up. As mentioned, don't keep it in the tank for too long. Another thing is that you should clean the carbon very very well before using it. Any carbon dust is eventually bad for your fish.

edit: clarified midnight post

[charlie]

I`m not convinced of the BGA/Excel theory, due to 2 reasons, i`ve never heard of Excel being effective on BGA ( could be possible) & secondly the time line you stated was very short ( a day or so).

[zima]

I`m not convinced of the BGA/Excel theory, due to 2 reasons, i`ve never heard of Excel being effective on BGA ( could be possible) & secondly the time line you stated was very short ( a day or so).

That's a very good point, charlie - the timeline is way too short. When I overdose Excel for algae treatment, it generally takes 3-4 day to see any progress, and full 5-7 days to eradicate algae. Also, it is not my experience to eradicate the BG algae with Excel. Are you sure the algae was gone in a day. Did you overdose Excel (as opposed to adding teh amounts prescribed on the bottle), and if so, by how much?

[dan2x38]

The plant Egeria densa helps prevent BGA. It releases a natural antibiotic into the water to prevent this stinky bacteria from taking hold. UV sterilizer will wipe it out and prevent it too. BUT the cause is the biggest issue here. I am betting water movement combined with build up of organics. You mentioned you try to force the waste on the top of the substrate at the back to the front to vacuum up. I am picky and really try to give the entire tank a good cleaning. Try getting into the substrate front and back with the vacuum. I realize with high end substrates this can be tough to me it is necessary though.

[Steve_2]

I didn't over dose Excel. I added the recommended dose(Which is 1 capful per 10 gallon for the first treatment, then 1 capful per 50 gallon every day or every other day after). I treated at night around 9pm, and then only checked on the tank in the afternoon the next day. The BGA was ~75% gone and the water looked faint pink.

I would like to increase water flow in my tank, but I am not sure what would be the best way. I find power heads are #1 Ugly, and #2 concentrate the flow too much.

I really cant siphon the substrate as I will end up sucking up all the finer sand particles. I think I do a pretty good job at removing all gunk at every water change though. As I said, I use the hose to spray water all around the back of the tank, and in between all plants and rocks and wood. The water flow makes all the gunk accumulate at the front of the tank where I can sucked it out as I do my water change.

Would this red algae look alot like BGA?

[Steve_2]

I was way today and just got back home. So the pinking colour is gone, there's almost no algae left except some of the other kind of algae I had before(green, a little "hairy" grown on old leaved, and on the glass closest to the light) The plants look happy. The discus are doing great, the tetras are also doing well. The rummy nose tetras have bright red noses. BUT...

The cories are dying... One dead so far, and the rest are breathing heavily. I am doing a 75% water change right now.

[dan2x38]

A common cause of cories dying is from gases in the substrate. The gases erode their barbels. The barbels are used to find food. Once they are gone or damaged they can actually starve to death. Also they are affected more by unstable water conditions.

I had sand mixed with a substrate and vacuumed it. If you can picture this explanation it works for me... I take a small diameter gravel vacuum. I cut a piece of sponge to fit into the end of the tube just snug about 2cm - 3cm thick. Then stick some fishing line through the centre of it from top to bottom and loop it back through then tie it off. Without cutting the fishing line I push the sponge up the tube 3/4's of the way. Then take the other end and tie it to the outside top of the tube so the sponge does not get sucked all the way up and I can pull it out using the fishing line. As I am vacuuming I hold the hose and if to much is sucked up I pinch the hose so the substrate drops back out. When done I pull out the sponge and rinse it. Works awesome! I also use this in my shrimp tanks it saves them from the drain of death... LOL

[fischkopp]

Maybe I was wrong about the red algae, I meant this stuff: Rhizoclonium . I read somewhere before that it would be a kind of red algae, but it appears to be a genus of green algae. There is way too many algae species out there, some very similar. Browse around to make sure you know what you are dealing with:
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm
http://www.guitarfish.org/algae
http://www.aquamax.de/HG08.htm

Sorry to hear about your corys, the increased organic waste must hast have been too much for them. It could be a rapid ammonia spike. I have also seen that some fish don't respond well to Seachem Excel, especially those coming from soft, low TDS water.

[Steve_2]

Thanks for the idea Dan. Robert, what do you mean increased organic waste? These cories have been in the tank for 6 months and never had a problem before. Do you think Excel creates more organic waste? My water IS very soft and pH is always around 6.0. I looked at all the links you sent me Robert, and yes, it definitely is BGA.

So it looks like I will have to dose nitrates(~5ppm), increase filtration and find a way to increase water flow to eliminate dead spots. With all that, I hope the BGA will not come back. As of right now, it's 99% gone thanks to Excel.

I'm not sure if I should try getting more cories though! It really bothers me that all the fish look like they are doing better than ever, yet the cories died. By the way, the cories barbels looked fine to me, but their gills were red and they were breathing very heavily. The water change did not help. They all died. Should I just never get cories for that tank again?