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Yet another lighting topic!

Started by Rob Labonte, February 18, 2010, 06:08:12 PM

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Rob Labonte

So after lots of research, I want to start a salt tank.

the only thing that confuses me (and im shure others that are starting up as well) is the lighting requirements.

Ive seen the question answered in many forums but im still confused. I want to set up a nano 10g. what lights do i/dont need? how many watts per gallon? or it it the K rating of the bulbs that matters? do you need actenic bulbs? are metal halides only for larger tanks?

id like to go rimless with a clamp reflector single bulb fixture. I have a reptile UV bulb. will it work?

im sorry if this topic has been covered time after time but im still unshure of what all this means.

Vincenzo.

no that clamp light will not work.

what do u want in the tank? softies, lps, sps?

Hookup

Too tired to answer at this point... got some info for ya I can share that should help... others will likely cover it before I get back to a keyboard.

1) Watts/gallon is crap
2) K is temp and relates to photosynthesis (also generally not as important as people think)
3) As vince points out... Lights are dependant on what you want to keep...
4) Par is a very important factor, reflectors, color temp and bulb/ballest combos effect PAR the most

10g nano is nice... cause it's not a lot to light.. so you're not looking at $1000+ of lighting...

mikerobart

10 gallon...depends what you wanna keep as the others mentioned.

FOWLR ( you don't want this ) - doesn't really matter
softies - PC lighting will be fine
lps - PC's work fine usually, t5ho's or MH best
sps - t5ho's or MH

A single MH suspended above the tank is my personal preference for that size but also because of limited depth it's an easy tank to light. Only issue I guess if you go t5ho's is overhang of about 2" on each side... not a big deal if you ask me.

If you want the ability to do high light corals well either use t5's or a halide ... a clamp on 70w viper comes to mind if you like the clamp on look. If you were to hang it and get it far enough from the water a 150w would be pretty sweet.


93GTCANADA

With the price of T5's now a days. I would do t5 and be done with it.

mikerobart

Yeah t5 might be the way to go... as long as you don't mind the slight overhang ( minimum standard bulb length is 24" and I am going to assume this is standard 20" long tank ).

What do you want to achieve with this tank ? Budget ?

When you say "clamp reflector single bulb fixture" what do you mean... ?

Single bulb t5ho will not really cut it. MH single bulb is definitely fine. t5ho you want 3-4 bulbs.

krila

I know the type of reflector you are talking about, most will not agree but if you are looking to do soft corals, you could go with the self balast flourescent bulbs by coralife.

some small 10 gallon tanks that I have seen out of the states are using these and they say they have good success with them, worth a shot if you want to experiment

But on a side note if it were me I would go with t5s.

Kris

93GTCANADA

They make 20 inch t5 fixtures. current usa has one.

mikerobart

True but then you are stuck with only current bulbs no? Have not heard great things and it seems that Giesemann, ATI, UVL, and KZ are not yet supporting the 18" bulb format.

Definitely a possibility though if you like that fixture
Quote from: 93GTCANADA on February 19, 2010, 10:16:29 AM
They make 20 inch t5 fixtures. current usa has one.

JD

If you are looking for some ideas, there is a forum on Reef Central dedicated to nano tanks.
Here you will find what many others are doing and what trends are current.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=75

I like sps reef tanks. They require the most light. I use MH on all my tanks.
T5 fixtures can give you more light colour flexibility, mixing and matching bulbs until you get the look you want.
T5 fixtures tend to use slightly less power and transmit less heat into the tank. For a nano stand alone tank this may be very important
if a chiller is out of the question.

Cheebs

Hey Rob, I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but 10 gallons is mighty small for a first saltwater tank. Not that it's a bad thing, but you would find it infinitely easier to maintain a larger tank if you are on the learning curve. Just a suggestion, but I say go bigger :D :D As for the lighting, I'd go with t5s. they're your best bet for power consumption, adaptability and colour options, and with the right light you can keep anything you want.

Hookup

1) Watts/gallon is crap - nuf said
3) As vince points out... Lights are dependent on what you want to keep...  - nuf said


What is light?  How is it used in the aquarium?  These are the key questions aren't they?

Light in your aquarium is there for two purposes when we talk corals.

1) Growth
2) Coloration (Looking good)

Starting with the easier of the two, coloration is primarily a factor of coral health and spectrum of light.  lets take it for granted that unhealthy corals are not going to "look good" and eliminate that factor from coloration, leaving us with Spectrum.  Spectrum of light is measured in kelvin (K) or nanometers (nm).  These two units are used interchangeably and are somewhat equivalent, however nm is an accurate measure of the spectrum and color temp is a characteristic of visible light.  A 20,000k like is a blue-ish light compared to a 10,000k bulb which is a yellow/red ish light.  420nm is violet/blue, 720nm is red.

In the diagram below, notice how the line representing color temp (K) is well defined between 0 and 10,000K and compresses 10,000k - infinity in a very small space.


This is important to understand because manufactures who claim a specific kelvin rating above 10,000k on their bulbs are using a highly inaccurate and subjective part of the measure.  It's marketing hype in most cases.  Some argue that specific 14k bulbs are "blue-er" than some 20k bulbs, and that's the subjective part.

Nanometers on the other hand are more accurate as they represent a spectral frequency of the light (photons) that is easily quantified.  The following diagram shows you how to understand what visible colors nanometer's are.


Now to apply that to the concept of coloration in the reef tank you simply need to know how color is generated within a coral, through what types of phosphorescence and pigmentation and what part of the color-spectrum shows that the best.  Simple right?  Wrong, no one yet knows the answer to that question in quantifiable terms for corals.  The amount of variation in corals and their coloration, and obviously the implied factors of that coloration have yet to be studied in depth.  Therefore we are left with observations from hobbyists.  Which simply say that blue color bulbs help bring out the color.   There have been some hobbyist-level studies done on coloration and growth under different spectrum (k) bulbs and the results yield  better colors under 20k bulbs.  However you must realize how subjective visual-preference would be.  How can you quantify "what looks good".  but suffices to say, bluer bulbs typically produce "better colors" for the average viewer.

The second factor of lighting on a reef tank is growth.  Growth is achieved through several factors in the reef-system that all need to be balanced and maintained like a three legged stool.  Without sufficient food/nutrients import/export the corals will suffer, without sufficient water parameters (salinity/ph/calcium/alk/mg/trace/etc) the corals will not grow, and without sufficient lighting they corals will not grow.  Remove any one of those factors and your stool falls over.  Assuming that you have methods to deal with the other two leggs of the stool, we can focus on light's role in coral health and growth.  

Fantastically, this really boils down to the process of photosynthesis which in the corals are carried out by Zooxanthellae (zoox).  There are many, many different variants of zoox.  There is no definitive research done on what types of corals have what types of host zoox or if zoox are regional, etc...  It is confirmed that two corals, of the exact same species can have different zoox makeup.  Also, it is confirmed that zoox have different light-usage requirements when compared with other zoox.  This means that your hammer coral can have different light requirements than mine even though they are same coral.    To further illustrate this below is a diagram of a typical corals absorption spectrum, the higher the absorption the more of that spectrum of light the coral (zoox actually) are using.


By looking at that absorption spectrum, you can see that the coral being analyzed "liked" light somewhere around the 450nm range and around the 700nm range.  The zoox used/absorbed that light the most.  So the logical conclusion here is that all we need to do is have charts like this for each of the corals and host zoox that we have in the hobby/trade and we can pick the lights that best-suit the corals needs/wants.  Problem is, that data just doesn't exist.  The best we have is a very small sampling of some data charts like the one above.  The good news, they show a similar pattern so by abstraction, most corals have that peak/pattern and therefore lighting our tanks with a combination of 420-480nm light and 640-700nm light gives the 'healthiest' results.  And this follows with the general observations within the hobby.

The only topic left on lighting is PAR, or the power of your light, or better the volume of light you are delivering.  Thing of the relationship between light and corals as the same relationship between your car and gas.  Premium gas works better, low-grade works the worst.. it all works.  Same thing with light, (to a point)... it all works, some works better than others.

PAR is a measure of photons that are delivered in a specific time frame.  Think of this in terms of how much light is getting to your corals.  You have have a very weak bulb with the perfect spectrum for your coral, but obviously it will not get the job done.  PAR is the measure of strength of light (loosely) that you need.  Unfortunately, to my knowledge there has been no progression of a standard measure within the aquarium trade that rates bulbs in terms of PAR output at various depths.   Or more accurately, there is no way of knowing how well a light is going to penetrate your water column without trial and error (and hopefully a water proof PAR meter).  This is because a huge factor of PAR is not only the quality of your water, but the type and design of your reflectors for your light.  One thing that is known is the deeper your light has to go, the less "red" light will get there.... Water scatters red light more easily than blue.. (this is why most underwater shots look blueish).


Summing up; (finally, i know)
Getting lighting that is a combination of the 420-450nm and 650-700nm spectrum will help in both coloration and growth/health of your coral.  Getting sufficient light down to the coral (PAR) is achieved through the power of the light (watts is a horrible, but only measure we have) and reflector quality and is also necessary to keep corals alive and healthy.

So what do you choose?
Well that only really depends on two factors... what you want to keep and what colors look best to you.  

As general rules, but there are many rule-breakers;
SPS corals have the highest demand for PAR
Softies have the lowest demand for PAR
LPS corals have a mid-demand for PAR

Once you know if you are getting into SPS or LPS or SOFTIES or CLAMS then you'll know what "PAR" requirements you have.  From there you can look at what kinds of light have what kind of output in terms of strength.... and what reflectors help etc...   At that time you'll know enough to look at coloration preferences based upon the lighting requirements you've chosen.

If it was me, I recommend T5H0's with LED for shimmer.  I love the flexibility of multiple bulbs (multiple colors of lights) and they have comparable PAR output to MH.  Adding the LED's gives you a few shimmering effects as the surface water deflects the point-light from the LED.  The PAR output of a 4 bulb system on a shallow tank is more than sufficent for SPS... but hey, i'm an SPS freak.

Tyler.L

tim

post like the first one more often! you actually think i read that...HA!

anyways get a cheap 70w halide clamp on fixture, or build your own, might as well get the best lighting you can and have anything you want in the tank....you can keep a clam, sps, lps, softies anything you wanted....just get a 14-20K bulb

halides ROCK!

kole18

im currently using 14k phoenix on my 40g 250w so far so good corals like it compare the one i have before 10k XM man all my corals turn to be brown blue millies seems doing find under 10k but the color is sucks brown and my purple lta you can't even tell if its purple or brown under 10k lol now i see what makes change for this type of bulb tyler what's new in your tank right now.

mikerobart

So Pete the Phoenix is working for you ? Good to hear

kole18


Hookup

Quote from: Tyler.L on February 19, 2010, 09:47:46 PM
tim

post like the first one more often! you actually think i read that...HA!

anyways get a cheap 70w halide clamp on fixture, or build your own, might as well get the best lighting you can and have anything you want in the tank....you can keep a clam, sps, lps, softies anything you wanted....just get a 14-20K bulb

halides ROCK!

No kidding eh... but a few sticky posts in this forum might help from time-to-time. 

I like to know why things are they way they are and do not like to "follow the crowd" for the sake of "everyone else does it"... So I research stuff... LIghting and flow would be two areas that I have done a heck of a lot of research on....

Snider82

Wow Tim.   its posts like that that make me pay full attention to your threads ( or threads you have been in)   

i get the whole 420-450nm thing  that easy just buy some blue bulbs (sorta)lol   but the 650 - 700? 
really I have a 6 bulb fixture and I'm not sure what type of bulbs are in it.   (3 BLUE!, a purplish, a pinkish, and a white)  now I'm trying to figure out what bulb combo i need.    i don't have alot of different colorful corals,  but i can tell you the green seems to have a nice punch in the face wow look.   but i don't have anything to compare yet.   I'm going to be picking up some bulbs so i can play with the configuration.   

any suggestion on a bulb set up?   and guess to what i have? (3 BLUE!, a purplish, a pinkish, and a white)  lol

Hookup

LOL... likely what you are seeing as white is really the yellow/red light that is 650-700nm range... or 10k bulbs if you like that scale..  I think you have a good mix to e honest.  I'd always play around with more of the "blue" lights (420nm - pure actincs)... replace the purple-ish with more pure actincs...

But really, from what you're describing, you're into the right zone for growth, and from there it's going to be playing to determine color preferences... I really like a blue tank... i find the corals pop in color.. (new fav's I got today are just OMG wowzers)...

Unfortunately, knowing how color/light works in the tank doesn't really do much in the end... the data isn't there on two ends... first, most bulbs are rated as Kelvin and therefore not accurate, and second, what makes one coral grow can make another one look like crap... but at least understanding what is going on when you adjust and play around is important... then you can "guess" with confidence... -if that makes any sense?

Rob Labonte

I took some peoples advice and decided to scrap the 10g nano idea. and I went out and got a 40g.

thanks for all the info guys. Ill have to read some of the posts when im not so tired though. I think what I need to do is figure out what I want to keep. plan the tank out before the lighting and not the other way around like I was trying. anyways, im not in a rush to get this tank going. so I think a bunch more research before I get going will do me good.