Plants doing so-so

[magnosis]

I'm having a hard time identifying what is out of balance in my tank.

Some of my plants are doing super, some are doing so-so.

For instance:

Anachris are growing by as much as 1" a day. At the top of the tank they are vivid green and pearling.
But near the substrate, they are withering, dying and disintegrating to the point where the plants become free floating in a matter of 5-10 days.




Java Ferns aren't growing much (at most 1.5 inches high). Those that were bigger when planted have become brown, broken and are looking bad.




Anubias are for the most part flourishing. They regularly grow new leaves about once every 2-3 weeks. But some of the leaves have become yellow and withering.




This one (I don't know the name) grows a new leaf at least every week. But the plant as a whole isn't growing, older leaves are constantly dying, new leaves don't reach more than 2" (less than half the the size it was when I bought it)




Now this looks like a sign that my substrate is poor. This plant (also unknown) is growing a lot of roots in the middle of the it's stem (as opposed to roots in the substrate) as if it was reaching to the water column for missing nutrients.





My tank parameters are:
- 55 gallons
- 2x54W 48" T5HO 10am to 9pm
- DIY Co2 with a Tom Barr -style venturi reactor (works great)
- Flourite substrate
- Root tabs when plants were introduced, no other ferts
- 2 big anubias
- 2 anubias nana
- two big anachris (10-ish stems, 10 to 24 inches long, 0.5-1.0" growth every day)
- a handful of tiny java ferns
- a bunch of java moss
- 3x 7-8" fancy goldfish
- 4x 1-2" siamese algae eaters

Current readings (stable for last 2 months)
PH: 7.5 (8.2 without CO2)
KH: 16-18
Nitrates: 0
Nitrites: 0
Ammonia: 0
CO2 drop-checker: green (so what?)
I don't have any other tests, so.. nothing for nutrients


Now to my questions:

1. Do these pics show any particular nutrient that is lacking ?

2. Drop checker green .. does this mean anything beside a neutral PH ?
--> I mean, it uses a PH regent.. is this really measuring CO2 or PH ?

3. The PH-to-KH ratio gives me a CO2 of ... 0.85 ppm !?!  Is this right ?

4. Plants are pearling when the CO2 bottles are working ok. Is this a good enough indication than my CO2 levels are ok ?

5. Is it true that fluctuation of CO2 levels have a huge impact on algae growth ? It happens almost once a week that my drop-checker will turn blue, for lack of diligence with the yeast bottles.  Then I re-fill one bottle and the drop checker goes back to green within a few hours.


TIA for the tips and sorry for the huge post .

[pminister]

Did you just setup the tank?

B/c even an established tank has some traces of nitrates. While yours is zero.

2nd your lighting period could be be brought down to 10hrs. I mean it is more then enough photo period, but basing of some plants you really dont need a longer photo period.

Also if you recent did put some plants in, it takes time for the plant to adjust. I mean it is expected to see a lil deterioration

[asmackay]

I'm not expert at plants yet but started a high tech planted with pressurized CO2.  I went from green drop checkker and adjusted BBS to get more yellow color and plants started to take off, I get more perling now.  I stop injecting when lights are off off so drop checker turns blue.

I would say your CO2 levels are fine if you have pearling.  I'm doing dry ferts with EI method.

Yellow leaves is either lack of iron or pottassium.  I don't think you will get good growth without Nitrates in the tank.

If you are doing CO2 without any other ferts you're handicapping the plants growth.  I use Seachem iron and trace elements plus dry ferts.

[fischkopp]

Are you fertilizing the tank at all, other than the root tabs? The waterweed and hygro are quite fast growing plants, that well strip many nutrients out of the water column. I believe the your nitrate reading is accurate: yellowing of old leafs could indicate a deficiency. The appearance of spot algae often shows that phosphates are in short supply.

How often and much how much do you change the water?

Forget about the KH-pH relationship, it's inaccurate. The drop checker works; with high KH it becomes very difficult to bring the pH down to 7 solely with CO2 and without impact to the fish. Drop checkers measure pH, the idea behind that the pH is affected by the dissolved CO2 (carbonic acid) in the water. Separated by an air gap, the CO2 concentration of the fluid in the drop checker will reach an equilibrium with the concentration in the tank. It has been found that 30ppm CO2 in water with KH of 4 will have a pH around 7, which is indicated by green colour. So your pH measurement in the drop checker shows you indirectly the CO2 concentration of in your tank. The only flaw is that it takes up to 4 hours to achieve equilibrium, which is fine as we are not in a hurry; just make sure you see green when the lights come on in the morning. The second flaw is that the indicator liquid should have an KH of 4; if you use your water with higher KH, then green would mean a CO2 contraction of >30ppm, so you are again ok. Pearling is the result of that and overall a good thing

[dan2x38]

As pMinster pointed out there is potential issue there with no NO3 (nitrate) showing. How old is the thank?

DIY CO2 is tough to maintain a level high enough to keep plants feed. I ran DIY CO2 for couple years but after I awhile it was to hard to maintain a constant level. On a 38g I had three bottles running. Every 5 days a bottle was rotated out so no one bottle lasted longer than 15 days. So the answer will algae take hold with unstable CO2 is - Yes. The algae will take advantage of any available nutrients if any part of the fertilizer is missing - meaning CO2, ferts macro & micro plus proper lighting.

You are on the edge of just enough light for those plants. The bulbs do age and this affects their effectiveness too. As they age the spectrum changes as well as intensity. This can also be an issue. I write the date on my bulbs with a Sharpie and try to change every 9 - 12 months determined by watching plant growth.

You have goldies in there they produce a lot of nitrogen compounds for plants but not enough trace elements. For instance if you are low in iron then your plants will have issue with nitrogen uptake. The root tabs are great for root heavy plants like swords, crypts and other plants with big root systems. But your jave fern & anubais (if tied down out of substrate) take up all ferts thought water column.

It is possible if this is established tank that the zero NO3 is because your plants are using all available and there are not enough total.

I would suggest you have several things happening here. No trace or micro nutrients are being made available. Also you should look at adding some nitrogen & phosphate. The yellowing of leaves might also be low potassium but I would try to address the stuff first. You might want to consider looking into Tom Barr's EI dosing. This involves dry ferts that less expensive.

Then I also suggest that DIY CO2 is not enough for so large a tank. It is usually suggested that DIY CO2 is affective up to 29g tanks.

You added a great pictures that is great for reading issues but like I said I think your dealing with a combo of issues. Take one or two things make a change and watch for results. I would start with a little bit of ferts but be careful since the CO2 fluctuates you do not want excess available for algae to run a muck.

Good luck keep us posted. I am sure others will have some useful pointers and advice as well.

[magnosis]

Wow thank you all so much for such great feedback ?

A few points to clarify:

- the thank has been up and running since mid January
- light bulbs were bought mid January
- all plants except hygro have been in the tank for 3+ months, hygro and weed since 6 weeks.

- after the initial cycle, my test has always (really) shown 0 nitrates.

- 50% water changes, weekly (10 days on a few occasions)

- CO2 injected 1h prior to 2h after light period
- I don't use any ferts except the root tabs (which are probably gone by now)


I think the first thing I'll do is to get a CO2 bottle I read many people start of DIY and move to pressurized a few years after, well it's been barely 4-5 months and I can already say it is a PITA to maintain a steady flow.

Again, thanks for the valuable info ! Will post back when I install the pressurized system.  Is the milwaukee thingy reliable at all ? BA has it for 130$ incl. bubble counter

[dan2x38]

The Milwaukee regulator is a good entery level system. I ran it for along time then sold it to a friend it never gave me an issues. Some have bit of time setting the needle valve. You can get a used reconditioned bootle with CO2 for approx. $120 at Davidsons on Percy St. in Centretown.

Research Tom Barr's EI dosing. I used James Planted Aqarium site to use premixed dry ferts. There is a calculator there how much to pre mix for what ppm. Never liked teh idea of my fish nibbling at undissolved dry ferts as they settled into the tank.

I get some ferts in there. NO3 at zero pretty much shows it is all being used up since this is an established tank. Hence the yellow leaves and browning leaves on the java signs of deficecies for sure.

Good luck look forward to your updates.

[cichlidicted]

Hey.....Going pressurized is never wrong

Regarding the regulator ... am using the same brand right now, i've been using it for a year now .... still have issues with the bubble counter, but in general it is solid... regarding the price, BA here sells it for 180 and not 130 ... prices on the net are for US customers, and they do not ship to Canada.

... when i had symptoms similar to yours (not eliminating other possibilities) ... i found the problem to be in the lighting .. am not sure whats the plant load in the tank .... but light penetration is big issue, Make sure light reaches to the bottom, I had to lower my lights and take off the glass covers...

regarding anubias and java ... note that the stem shouldn't be buried under the gravel cuz they'll rot...  it would be helpful if you would post the amount and days of fertilization ... cause from the pictures it is clear that there is some sort of imbalance.... and when/how much water change is done ??

one very imp point to consider is the godfish waste .... the more you feed the more they introduce waste to the tank, you probably know by now that goldfish are poop machines (excuse me) and they do introduce ALOT of nitrogen to the tank . I wouldn't recommend them to be in a planted tank anyways, but thts my opinion.

.. am not sure if am delivering my msg clearly ... but what am trying to say is there are lots of issues going on ... picking one might not help ... but whatever you do next, results will not appear immediatly .. so patience ... this is only the beginning  .... goodluck

[magnosis]

@cichlidicted:

- 50% water changes, weekly (10 days on a few occasions)

- I don't use any ferts except the root tabs (which are probably gone by now)

For BA's price, a) I always look on the .ca site (I hope it's CND$) and b) 130$ was given to me over the phone from the west-end store.

That said, I doubt it's correct. I mean, La Niche has it for 170$ too, w/out the bubble counter. Why such a difference ?  So you're probably right @ 170$

My anubias all have the stems out of the substrate, but they grew roots down into it.  The stems are definitely not rotting, they look good. Just 1 leaf out of 8 is yellow the others are fine.

The Java Ferns are tied down to little pieces of driftwood & 1/2 root tab.  But they are doing meh. I don't like how they look at all.  Someone pointed out that Java Ferns staying very short might be due to excessive lighting -- as in they don't need to reach out much to take up the light they need and thus they stay short.  Does that make sense ?

The hygros is what's puzzling me the most.  Super luch at top of the tank, withering at the bottom.  Many ppl have told me my lights are more than enough for any plants I use (if not overkill).

I'm going shopping for ferts and a CO2 system. Thanks again and ttyl.

[magnosis]

One more quick question.

From Greg Watson:

The Estimative Index method works best for a high to medium light and well planted aquarium. However it is not limited to higher light setups, smaller quantities of fertilizers can be dosed if low light is used. Also, the frequency may be reduced to 1-2x a week at low light(1.5-2w/gal).

Since I'm more on the side of "lightly planted" than "well planted", would it make sense to start with his Dosing Guideline for, say, a 29G instead of a 55G (my tank is 55) ?

[dan2x38]

Try Ray for a regulator he one in stock last time I was there. If not order one from MOPS.ca an order of $200 is free shipping. Setup a group order.

[charlie]

I would be inclined to suggest that you focus on CO2 levels first , get it stable & fully saturated, given the lights you stated ( 2x54 watts T5 HO), if that lighting has good reflectors you are more likely in the med high to high range of lighting for planted tanks, i personally have a 59 gallon hagen that is light by a double Hagen T5 HO for 8.5 hrs & a single Hagen T5 that comes in for a 4 hr burst & still find that to be too much lighting, i can grow anything  including carpeting HC in that tank.
Th addition of nutrients, i would suggest starting with 1x a week, 90% of the plants you currently list are very slow low light plants & even the few fast growers are low light.
Just my take on it.

My tank parameters are:
- 55 gallons
- 2x54W 48" T5HO 10am to 9pm
- DIY Co2 with a Tom Barr -style venturi reactor (works great)- you probably can do with 3-4 bottles of DIY to keep up- Flourite substrate
- Root tabs when plants were introduced, no other ferts- none of your listed plants are benefitting much from the tabs-
2 big anubias- slow low light
- 2 anubias nana- very slow low light
- two big anachris (10-ish stems, 10 to 24 inches long, 0.5-1.0" growth every day)- fast grower ,low ligt-
a handful of tiny java ferns - slow low light

[magnosis]

A follow up:

I recently implemented pressurized CO2 (30+ ppm steady), and started EI dosing 2 weeks after that.

All of the plants pictured above look much nicer now ! My Anubias Barteri has even spouted 2 flowers in the last 10 days despite still having 2 yellow & punctured leaves. It grows a new leaf almost every week.

Java Ferns aren't growing higher than a few inches, but they are lush green. The moss is growing out of control

The hygro is still growing a lot (quite a lot) of roots out of the stem (vs. buried into the soil) but they also look in better shape, green at the base and reddish closer to the light.


Some big thanks in order for the above posters

[androo303]

Magnosis, where did you get your CO2 setup? I just started my plant aquarium (2xJava Fern, and 2xAnubias I think)..... 

Just got'er done but was hoping to provide a little CO2 for a treat. Any help greatly appreciated.

[magnosis]

I bought the Milwaukee regulator + needle valve solenoid + bubblecounter (all in one package) from La Niche.  The prices are pretty much the same all around in town.  The Milwaukee is average-quality setup that won't cost an arm and leg compared to higher end components.  A good tip I got on this forum is to set the regulator to ~20 PSI, it makes it way easier to adjust the flow if the pressure is higher.  Do a few tests and see what works for you.  I had a really hard time to control the output on lower pressure settings.

The 20lbs CO2 bottle came from Piromatech - they are just beside AutoXtrem on Rue de Varennes in Gatineau (behind all the car dealerships on La Verendrye)

I think it came close to 280$ taxes included.

Make sure you get the proper CO2 tubing, I forgot which one but not all air lines are good for CO2, I read you can lose as much as 30% of the CO2 over time if the line is not made from the proper material, and if not that, the line will deteriorate from the constant contact with CO2.  Ok that's not quite helpful but a little research may be in order on that front.

Then, you'll need a proper reactor / diffuser.  Search the forums here, there's a group build of Tom Barr's prototype that explains pretty well what you needs to build one for ~ 45$.  The original idea is featured and well illustrated on plantedtank.net.  I did 7 or 8 different DIY prototypes and spent way too much $ (but it was fun!) and finally gave in to an eBay reactor (the green one) that cost me 25$ shipped, and it works perfectly.  Other options are glass diffusers, ceramic nano diffusers, in-line reactors that you install on the filter output, and so on. 

Mind that, you can get away with cheaper but more combersome DIY (sugar+yeast based) CO2 method if you just have ferns and anubias as they are pretty slow growers and can thrive on any low-tech setup.  On the longer term, the pressurized setup will be cheaper and easier to maintain.

Good luck !

Magnosis, where did you get your CO2 setup? I just started my plant aquarium (2xJava Fern, and 2xAnubias I think)..... 

Just got'er done but was hoping to provide a little CO2 for a treat. Any help greatly appreciated.